Dealing with Gryphons...

[Stormshrug]

So, it's somewhat old news, but I've played a significant number of my last few games against an IG player who favors Gryphons pretty heavily (he once took as many as four in a single game, though he's cut back because he's afraid that the local Tau player will simply stop speaking to him if he keeps it up. Fire Warriors don't like those things at all. As an aside, the Gryphons usually kill 3-4 times their point cost when fighting the Tau player.). Now, they're not absolutely deadly against Space Marines, since they neither insta-gibb nor deny armor saves, but they've pretty much forced me to mechanize all elements of my fairly troop-heavy army lest I suffer horrible, horrible casualties during the first few turns. That in and of itself isn't a huge problem either. My problems are as follows:

 

1. They're easy for the IG player to put on his back lines and use effectively against me for the entire game, and since they don't need LoS to operate effectively (because of the rerolling scatter rule), I can't really use ranged weapons like Lascannons to deal with them reaably. That's okay on its own, but:

 

2. They're really, really inexpensive, such that committing any single unit (like, say, my Scouts) to offing them is unlikely to end in a net point gain for me. I do it anyway, because if I don't kill them they make it very hard to engage him, but I'm not pleased about it.

 

Thus far, I've taken to holing up in my Rhinos on the objective points and waiting for his footslogging Guardsmen to show up, at which point I disembark, assault, and hope for the best (i.e. that the Guardsmen take two turns to break. They never take two turns, though...). Ideally, by this point, my Scouts have popped out to do bad things to his Gryphons, but since the tanks are usually spread out across the map, the single Scout squad can't get them all quickly (and may get shot by another Gryphon after killing the first). As such, I usually end up eating 3-4 shots on my troops and 2-3 on my Rhinos over the course of a game, almost all of which at least score partial hits. The stupid things probably constitute almost as many casualties inflicted as his Guardsmen themselves, and they cost maybe a quarter of what all the Army Men do. And Russ forbid they immobilize one of my Rhinos on the first turn and the guys inside have to get out and walk...

 

I'm thinking of adding a Land Speeder to my army for a bit more cheap tank-hunting, fyi.

 

Any thoughts? Insight? Commiseration?

 

Edit: The alternate strategy I have considered is just showing up with three Whirlwinds at some point to give him a taste of his own medicine. This is something of a pyrrhic victory, though, since it doesn't solve the problem at hand.

 

-Stormshrug

[CainTheHunter]

Drop pod a Dread with MM or LC/ML combo? Hit the first one, then hope that he does not remove the wreck and hide behind its cover. Then snipe the second one - it must be surely in range.

And yes, I was instantly thinking about taking Whirlies :lol:

[Wulfen00]

Let me introduce you to my silent brothers. Wolf scouts are amazing, 3+ you can come in from his edge, even 1 or 2 likely as guard he has a long line so you can likely get into assault asap, or find some good cover and move in for the kill. Add in melta bombs or even jsut a gun and they are amazing anti range units. A friend of mine has has to keep a unit further back all the time just in hopes to prevent my scouts from taking him out, add in the fact it forces his big guns further up, allowing for easier frontal assault.

[Chucku]

Let me introduce you to my silent brothers. Wolf scouts are amazing, 3+ you can come in from his edge, even 1 or 2 likely as guard he has a long line so you can likely get into assault asap, or find some good cover and move in for the kill. Add in melta bombs or even jsut a gun and they are amazing anti range units. A friend of mine has has to keep a unit further back all the time just in hopes to prevent my scouts from taking him out, add in the fact it forces his big guns further up, allowing for easier frontal assault.

 

Yes to Drop Pods and Wolf Scouts. The Griffon is a great piece of kit. Non-LOS weapons don't fare well in these parts as there is a definite lack of obscuring terrain at the LGS, however.

[saphius]

Speeders wouldn't be bad but I'm with everyone else on the scouts. - I don't feel dropping 1 dread will do it, two maybe. One will get shot and die if his list is even remotely well built.

 

Now, have you considers 2 units of scouts? I usually don't have the elite slot open but, if I did and this right now is the biggest problem your facing it your area, double scout it up.

 

Second question, does he keep infantry back to help his griffins? If he does dual charges are your friend. Get as many on the tank as possible and few on the IG. You should win combat and worst case scenario he breaks and runs right off his board edge leaving you a consolidate. Best case your locked in for a round in his turn to kill him off and move on. I would recommend a MoTW in the unit though. - But DON'T let him attack the IG first round. Few wounds as possible. - Unless it's a unit with a commisar or 20+. Loosing the scouts to shooting later is worth killing the tank(s) and 20 IG.

 

Any static IG list - meaning artillery or gun line or a combination of either - are prime targets for scouts.

 

Now if you went the 1 or 2 dread route I still think scouts are a must. Just bring them in near each other if possible to support one another but if not then hit flanks and make sure you have more threats pressing him from your side of the field or, as you said, you'll loose both units to IG shooting.

 

Now, remember, not every unit needs to 'earn its points'. Every unit needs to 'do its job'. If the scouts can do what you need them to do more reliably than anything else but cost a little more, then you might analyze the situation and come to the conclusion that it's worth your points. If you feel there is a less reliable, cheaper option, then you may consider that. There also may be even more reliable more expensive options (Ven dread in pod W/ MM) but also increase risk with points being sunk into a vehicle that may end up on it's own and can die in one shot.

 

It's not about 'earning your points' that makes a good list, or Wolf Lord. It's about making a cohesive army where things do their job reliably but still offer just enough versatility to handle a thing or two out of their comfort zone. - At least, if your building all comer tourny lists, which is sounds like you are.

 

To sum up my advice, stick with the scouts and keep practicing them. You might want to try the unit with a flamer and MoTW so you can handle infantry as well as tanks. - I really like 6 or so scouts with a flamer and MoTW. Good-bye Lootaz. But, don't shoot infantry and deny yourself a charge on tanks by killing too much. Their first priority is tanks. Melta bombs may even be worth it if you want a sure bet. If you feel like sinking a few points into them add a WG w/ a PF/Combi-Flamer and give the squad a melta gun. I you may be surprised at how versatile scouts can be. - Not to mention the PWs that take out Dev squads and, can I say this?, Long Fangs *cringe*, that may be sitting in backfields of MEQs. Though I feel that unless you see a lot of use for PWs, leave them out of the squad.

 

It may or may not be worth getting another squad, or a dread. You might try a speeder or two but I would only advise this if you plan on mobilizing and bringing the heat on him quickly with land raiders or Grey Hunters. They are too easily made ineffective in my book. (Even a crew shaken makes them worthless for a turn). You need other things in his face taking shots off them or they will seem useless most games.

 

Hope this helps. I too have started to see Griffins in my face and also keep hidden in tanks until they are brought to justice.

[Prosedragon]

Good for him for managing to use Gryphons effectively...the games I used mine in I would have actually been better off not taking them, because I wouldn't have had to squad my tanks. You just have to realize they're really not that effective against marines, and prioritize your targets accordingly. Its good they've forced you to mechanize - if you think a gryphon's bad, how about a LR battle tank, or a demolisher? They're more expensive and do require line of site, but for the damage they put out and the greater reliability I think they're a better buy any day.

 

Also - they always scatter right? Even on a direct hit when they're fired indirectly (no LOS), and if fired indirectly they don't get to subtract their ballistics skill either. I know they get to reroll scatter, but in my experience that just meant scattering another way. Actually, I just checked and they can't fire directly, so if my indirect fire rules are correct they will always scatter.

 

Solutions? Drop dreadnoughts and/or wolfguard w/ combi-meltas? Get in as close as possible to his units - you can't fire template weapons such that they'll hit your own units. Granted, he does get to move, but it'll work occasionally, especially if you can immobilize one of his vehicles. Scouts I think are a poor choice, because he probably has heavy flamers on his gryphons so they can double as a counter to exactly what you're trying to do. If he uses heavy bolters now he won't for long, not after being hit with scouts a time or two.

[Warhorse47]

Scouts with ML, using frag missiles will hurt some Griffons as they are open topped.

[KiltedMarine]

If nothing else, drop-podding a GH unit with two meltas on him couldn't hurt. It's a troops slot, so you don't have to take up another elites to do it, you'd be up his nose immediately and force him to focus resources on that unit that would allow the rest of your army to maneuver a little more freely.

 

Bikers- I use mine as tank hunters anyway, and their T5 would make them a tougher target for him to deal with. Meltabombs and a power fist are your friend. Bonus points if you add a WGPL with a TH (which is my own combo).

 

Tactically, depending on avenues, you could conceivably deal with his tactic by simply playing aggressively. An IG gun line will rarely hold out very well against a concerted assault by a couple of GH or BC squads. Pick a point in his lines, and hit it like the hammer of Arjac, then charge through the opening you've created and spread havoc.

 

All the suggestions above are also quite sound. And "getting your points back" is only useful as a shorthand concept when doing unit-on-unit mathhammer. In actual games, it's what a given unit used a given way will do to the overall picture that's more important.

 

Just my $0.05- after all that talking, I need mead! Good luck, brother.

[Wildfire]

First question: what's your normal list look like. What's his like? That would help us determine how to counter his griffons with your current list, rather than make changes with models you may not have access to.

 

Second question: what size board are you using? If 6x4, and he's spreading out his griffons, you can use a refused flank to run down one map edge and kill one set of them before worrying about the other.

 

Which leads me to my next point: why sit and take the pounding? Keep running forward and assualt them. If you get inside 12" they won't be able to fire, so just run up and krak grenade them.

 

Another option is to take preds. They'll give you long-range firepower with little chance of being killed. The basic pred with no upgrades or sponsons is a good buy for this type of thing. It can move 6" and fire two shots that are very likely to hit. Adding heavy bolter sponsons is cheap and effective when the infantry show up. Alternately, you can take lascannons on the pred (either turret or sponson or both), but that is a significant price hike and I'm not sure it'd be worth it then.

 

Whomever made the suggestion of double-charging with the scouts is right on. Speeders are nice, as well, I especially like MM/HF speeders. That gives you a nasty anti-infantry weapon for once the tanks are dead. Don't be afraid to shoot at 12-24 inches if you've got a side-armor shot. You'll still likely pen. Bikers may be ok for this too, although much more expensive.

 

Finally, everyone that said not to pay attention to if your scouts "make their points back" to count them as successful is correct. If your scouts kill a gryphon and then die, they may not personally have been responsible for destroying their own points worth, but any units they save will be able to contribute to the battle furhter. That should count for a lot. With the 5th edition victory conditions, counting points is pointless (pun intended).

[saphius]

Also - they always scatter right? Even on a direct hit when they're fired indirectly (no LOS), and if fired indirectly they don't get to subtract their ballistics skill either. I know they get to reroll scatter, but in my experience that just meant scattering another way. Actually, I just checked and they can't fire directly, so if my indirect fire rules are correct they will always scatter.

 

A 'Hit' is a hit. - They will hit where they want 2/3's of the time. But, will scatter the full distance when they do scatter.

 

One rule I am hazy on though is, if run as a squadron, do they fire as a barrage? And, if such is the case, when firing as a squadron - do they re-roll all rolls to hit. For example, I roll to shoot enemy, roll a scatter, decide to re-roll, then get a hit. Then, since it's a barrage, I roll an additional scatter to see where the second template hits, I roll and don't like the direction, do I then get to re-roll that die as they all get to re-roll scatter?

 

Just a question on how this rule combination works.

 

Either way, they can be nasty. Against marines my philosophy isn't always try to ignore armor. It's cause as much wounds as possible and watch them drop. Griffons provide that awesomely. - Now if your opponent was smart he'd run them with a medusa or two and then you'd feel the real hurting.

 

Anyway, can anyone answer my question on how re-rolling these artillery squadrons work or do I need to start another thread because I accidentally ninja'd this one?

[Rocknar]

If he is running a squadron he gets to re-roll all scatter dice. it is a barrage so if he hits on the first the others just roll a scatter dice and flip the template.

As of a counter, Scouts really is the only thing that has countered these effectively but my usal opponet also has 3 LR and 3 Vendettas full of vets witch is very hard to deal with. The only thing that has beat him is Tripple land Raiders and scouts.

[Spacefrisian]

Why not make him cry and take 3 pods, 2 of them will have dreads and 1 will have greyhunters. The 2 pods that contain dread will be Lucius pattern droppods, that means you can charge with those dreads the turn the arrive (its not nice i know, but he likes his Griffons so i think its fair).

[Stormshrug]

A lot of good suggestions here; I'm glad I got so many good responses.

 

Let me hit a few salient points:

 

1. I am a huge fan of Wolf Scouts; I cut my teeth in the Damocles Gulf fighting Tau, and so I never underrate the power to get troops directly to their objectives that OBEL and Outflank grant.

 

I actually field two squads of Scouts already against IG, since a Melta in every squad of Guardsmen makes a Dreadnought a relatively poor Elites choice. And I do use them to take out threats like the Gryphon, as I mentioned, because if I don't, I see pretty substantial losses, so I certainly recognize that a raw "point for point" comparison is of limited value given the significant opportunity cost of NOT killing the Gryphons.

 

Still, I'm not ecstatic to send my valuable Wolf Scouts against a target that costs my opponent so little if it means that they either get shot apart or are badly out of position afterward. I do it, because it's the right decision most of the time, but I don't like it. Hence my asking: Is there a better way to do this?

 

 

2. A Dreadnought in a pod is an interesting idea here, but I suspect my Scouts already perform much the same job without the risk of scattering off the table upon arrival and at a lower cost.

 

 

3. Upon further consideration, I like the Land Speeder both less and more as an idea. Pro: Cheap Multi-Melta that can Deep Strike or use its high speed to get around the map quickly. Con: Meltagun in every single squad of Guardsmen, and a fair number of Plasma Guns in Veteran Squads. I'll probably try one in our next game (MM/HF combo, definitely, has been the best for me in the past).

 

 

4. We tend to play with a fair amount of obscuring terrain, so Lascannons are definitely not the answer here. If I could count on getting a clear shot, I'd be all for them, but I can't.

 

5. As to charging: I, like all red-blooded, ale-swigging Space Wolf players with a haunch of meat in one hand and a battleaxe in the other, would love nothing more than to charge and pound his silly metal boxes with whatever is on hand (a battleaxe and a haunch of meat, in this case). On relatively smaller maps, I'd agree that this is one nice way to negate Gryphons. On larger maps, however, it's likely that the Gryphons will be off in far corners - vulnerable to Outflanking and such, but difficult to reach otherwise, and so it's not an entirely valid option for dealing with them.

 

Charging also means that my Rhinos are going to either get blown up by the ubiquitous Meltas or left behind to assault - which is alright if the Gryphons are down (in fact, it's the plan, since you can't punch somebody from inside a metal box!), but means a lot of S6 hits on my infantry, and even with a 3+ Save, this translates into an unhealthy number of casualties.

 

If I was fighting an army with tougher troops (read: any other army), I'd probably charge anyway, and count on staying in combat during his shooting phase to avoid taking the shots, but it's so DARNED HARD to keep those tiny men from being crushed beneath my troops' ceramite boots in a single turn, leaving them open to all the other tiny men shooting (and the Gryphons). I've actually considered splitting my squads of Grey Hunters into smaller units just for this purpose. If somebody can offer a compelling argument otherwise, I could certainly see myself changing my mind about the matter of rushing him, though. Because, you know, I really want to.

 

 

Again, thanks for all the suggestions! Glad to see I'm not the only one considering how to deal with these things!

 

 

-Stormshrug

[Wildfire]

How do you outfit your scouts, if I may ask? It sounds like you mainly play vs. Tau and IG, so I recommend small squad sizes and no combat upgrades.

 

With two scout squads, you can rely on getting at least one where you want it. If you go second, I'd really try out a refused flank deployment. It also sounded as though he was keeping his squads in reserve. If you use an aggressive deployment, placing as far forward on one flank as possible, you should be able to get pretty close before he gets into melta range. Besides which, if he's in melta range, he's reasonably likely to get a few casualties from his own artillery fire. Use the scouts on the griffons on the other flank. Don't be afraid to lose a few models in the course of this action, it's the price of victory.

[Stormshrug]

I usually do 6-7 Scouts per squad with one Meltagun, two Power Weapons, and a Wolf Guard (with Meltabombs and other kit, sometimes including a Combi-Melta). I find that even against Tau, and especially against other Marines, the Power Weapons are almost without exception a worthwhile buy; not a bad thought to drop those against IG, though. Cutting the squad size would also help, I suspect.

 

Gryphons are *extraordinarily* accurate with their reroll rule, and I've only seen him hit his own troops once in a healthy number of games, even when being fairly "reckless" about shooting near his own troops (and when he did he lost, what, four or so ten point models with Lasguns? It doesn't exactly dent your fighting force to shoot your own men in the IG, as Commissars demonstrate.)

 

He usually does not start in reserve, but in fact begins with his forces on the field, then footslogs them towards the nearest objectives. Most of his army consists of basic troop-choice Guardsmen in 10-man squads, with a single Melta per squad. I definitely do want to get into combat with them, but the problem is that typically, any squad of mine will cut through one of his squads in a single turn, and then I not only end up taking fire from all of those Lasguns (which certainly inflict casualties, but not outside of reasonable losses), but also one or two hits per model from the Gryphons. Hence, it's kind of important that the Gryphons go down before I start assaulting. As I mentioned earlier, though, I'm going to try smaller squads of Marines here, and hopefully that will help me leap-frog from combat to combat instead of spending so many turns vulnerable to fire (I miss the old Sweeping Advance rules).

 

Also, I've consulted the Rulebook and Google, and neither is being very forthcoming about the matter of a "Refused Flank Deployment." Care to enlighten me?

 

-Stormshrug

[GI Joker]

For the scouts you may want to drop them down to five men with a melta gun and one MotW. That gives you good anti tank shooting, and if you miss you can charge. D6+2 str4 rending attacks and 4 krak grenades probably auto hitting (I don't imagine his Gryphons are zooming about the board) for just 100 points. Also you may want to put a bunch of your squads in drop pods and load 'em down with meltas (GH's get a free one if their squad numbers 10!) If possible you can set up your charges to get two squads on the assault and between the two of them, one should hold for a second turn of combat.

[Wildfire]

I also would suggest trying a smaller squad size for those scouts. The scouts you use are nice for PA armies, but against tau and IG they're probably overkill.

 

Just double checking, but have you tried charging more than one unit at a time? That can often help you stay in combat longer, as it's less likely they'll all run and leave you in the open. You'll be more likely to lose a model or two, but that's better than getting shot. Again, this is for poor CC armies, such as IG and Tau. Usually it's not good to try to combo-charge 2 squads of CSM with a 5-man scout squad.

 

A refused flank is loading one side of the board with most or all of your army, allowing you to have local force superiority. You are "refusing" fight one of his flanks. If he has spread out, you can concentrate on killing one part of his army with your whole army, then move on roll up the flank and kill him. It really doesn't work all that well unless 1) he deploys first, and 2) he spread out (although this is a common deployment for artillery).

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Just be glad that he does not use the griphons as a range finder for the other heavy artillery.

Its where you have a Griphon in a squadren of ather artillery (which you can do) and fire that first and then the other artillery lands around that. Its nasty.

 

If you are going to be going for the drop pod dread may I suggest that it has a heavy flamer and assaut cannon. 165pts with a pod. Aim the heavy flamer so that you can infliced at least one casualty on anouther squad you are shooting at and then use the pods stormbolter to try to take out another two members so that he needs to take a moral cheak. If you are unable to do this then he is A] very good or B] hasnt got enough elter weapons in range to succefully worry youre dread (BS3 with one anti tank weapon sucks) than aim for his squadrens of artillery, especciaslly in assult (after all as a squadren you can direct youre three attacks against all of them).

[Stormshrug]

A refused flank is loading one side of the board with most or all of your army, allowing you to have local force superiority. You are "refusing" fight one of his flanks. If he has spread out, you can concentrate on killing one part of his army with your whole army, then move on roll up the flank and kill him. It really doesn't work all that well unless 1) he deploys first, and 2) he spread out (although this is a common deployment for artillery).

 

I see. Thanks for the explanation!

 

-Stormshrug

[Guganation]

Just a thought. If you'd consider the dropship assault (GH or DN) then you could always spend the 20 pts on a DW missile launcher. I'm not familiar with the griffen, but if it's open topped, and you can land your DPs within 12" then it's by by IG griffen crews.

[Stormshrug]

Just a thought. If you'd consider the dropship assault (GH or DN) then you could always spend the 20 pts on a DW missile launcher. I'm not familiar with the griffen, but if it's open topped, and you can land your DPs within 12" then it's by by IG griffen crews.

 

It isn't open-topped, but it does have relatively low armor.

 

-Stormshrug

[Sven Bloodskull]

Just a thought. If you'd consider the dropship assault (GH or DN) then you could always spend the 20 pts on a DW missile launcher. I'm not familiar with the griffen, but if it's open topped, and you can land your DPs within 12" then it's by by IG griffen crews.

 

It isn't open-topped, but it does have relatively low armor.

 

-Stormshrug

 

Unless you give it the enclosed crew compartment, it will be open topped. So i would always give gryffons enclosed crew compartments.

 

Marshal Hellmund

[Stormshrug]

Fair enough; I stand corrected. I think people usually do shell out for this upgrade, though.

 

-Stormshrug