Keeping skimmers off your objectives...

[ShinyRhino]

I've lost a few games in various tournaments due to last-turn Flat Out moves by skimmers plopping themselves within 3" of an objective I had firmly controlled. Sometimes it's to Eldar, sometimes to Marines, sometimes to Tau.

How exactly does one defend against this tactic? Most recently, I lost an objective on the last turn to a Ravenwing Landspeeder that moved Flat Out to within a hair's breadth of one of my objectives that I had formed a ring of Marines around. That dropped me from a Massacre to a Minor Victory. BAH.

In other games, I've had Wave Serpents and Falcons jump over the Rhinos I had blocking off the route to the objective, and contest in the final turn. Same with Skimmers tank shocking my Marines off an objective in the final turn.

 

I'm guilty of using the same tactics in my games, but I do this with bikes, or Tank Shocking Rhinos. Skimmers throw a whole extra wrench in my gears. Things like Devilfish, Pirhanas, Falcons, Serpents, and Marine Speeders can all jump over my defenses with impunity, or Tank Shock them out of the way. The chances of a successful Death or Glory attack are slim near the end of a fight, when I've taken casualties.

 

How do you cordon off your objectives from skimmer jumps in the last turn?

[angry man]

short of destroying the offending skimmers before the last turn, all i can think of is to form a ring around the objective, with the far side of the base 2-and-a-tiny-bit inches away. this means that there shouldnt be enough room for them to land in the middle (base would need to be tinytiny not to be within an inch) and they can get within 3-and-a-tiny-bit inches on the outside (because they cant be within an inch of your model)

 

AM

[Justicar Valius]

^^^

Agreed

[gettothegone]

Drive on top of the objective with whatever you're on so its centered on your tank, or angle your tank so that the peak of the diamond formation is facing the incoming speeder. Their units need to stay 1" away from you at all times, this is usually suffice to keep skimmers off your objective just due to the bubble that wraps you. Bonus points for wrapping troops around the sides for added protection.

[ShinyRhino]

Drive on top of the objective with whatever you're on so its centered on your tank, or angle your tank so that the peak of the diamond formation is facing the incoming speeder. Their units need to stay 1" away from you at all times, this is usually suffice to keep skimmers off your objective just due to the bubble that wraps you. Bonus points for wrapping troops around the sides for added protection.

 

Not a bad idea. I thought maybe parking a pair of Rhino chassis on either side of it might help as well, say 2" apart, with the objective sandwiched int he middle. Only problem is, it takes two tanks to do this.

[gettothegone]

I'll throw up some pics when I get home for how I do it using terrain, table corners, and tanks. You're right though, out in the open it may be a bit difficult to do, you could definitely do it with 2 tanks. One of the key things I've realized through my games is that most people like to use the medium bases for objectives. While this is nice for asthetics, its not a good tactical advantage. *Read previous line as: IhateEldardamnitsomuch*

 

You CAN be shifty if you want, and hand your opponent the larger cooler looking ones if he doesn't have any, which is 9/10 times, but in competitive games, keep them at 1" objective markers for yourself, and low enough to be able to drive tanks directly over them.

 

I'll post pics later tonight.

[waaanial00]

Not a bad idea. I thought maybe parking a pair of Rhino chassis on either side of it might help as well, say 2" apart, with the objective sandwiched int he middle. Only problem is, it takes two tanks to do this.

 

Or one tank and a heavily spaced out combat squad. Of course that all is for naught if they tank shock you off the objective.

 

How about concentrating on killing speeders by turn 4? I suppose its easier said than done but sometimes its about thinking ahead a couple of turns to what is truely the threat to you winning? Not criticising by the way.

 

Wan

[gettothegone]

Not a bad idea. I thought maybe parking a pair of Rhino chassis on either side of it might help as well, say 2" apart, with the objective sandwiched int he middle. Only problem is, it takes two tanks to do this.

 

Or one tank and a heavily spaced out combat squad. Of course that all is for naught if they tank shock you off the objective.

 

How about concentrating on killing speeders by turn 4? I suppose its easier said than done but sometimes its about thinking ahead a couple of turns to what is truely the threat to you winning? Not criticising by the way.

 

Wan

 

I agree with killing skimmers, but taking down 6 tooled TB'd Wave Serpents is a lesson in frustration :huh:

[DarkGuard]

Besides putting a tank or big unit on top of the objective there's not much else you can do. However, it should be pointed out that most people will use their skimmers in such a way so you should prepare for it, the best thing being to take them out at range before they get that last burst of speed.

 

Thankfully, random game length makes it harder to judge when the game will end, so your opponent has to make a decision. Keep the skimmer safe and zoom it onto the objective in Turn 7 (maybe 6). Or move in Turn 5 and hope for an early finish, but possibly have to play through Turn 6 and risk losing the skimmer. If you pressurize him/her chances are they'd op for the later option as a last ditch attempt to at least salvage a draw, if they aren't under so much pressure they may be more inclined to do it later.

[minigun762]

How much insurance is there in a Meltagun on the camping squad?

[gettothegone]

66% chance of hitting it.

66% chance of it making its 3+ cover.

33% chance of a glance / pen

33% chance of destroyed result.

 

5% chance...ish overall? Someonemathhammer that?

[ShinyRhino]

66% chance of hitting it.

66% chance of it making its 3+ cover.

33% chance of a glance / pen

33% chance of destroyed result.

 

5% chance...ish overall? Someonemathhammer that?

 

Flat Out gets a 4+ cover, not a 3+. 3+ is for turbo boosters.

[minigun762]

If its death/glory (which I assume it would be) isn't it an auto-hit?

[Koremu]

Hitting is automatic vs. a Tank Shock, isn't it?

 

And does it count as a CC attack, hence bypasses the energy field?

[ShinyRhino]

Hitting is automatic vs. a Tank Shock, isn't it?

 

And does it count as a CC attack, hence bypasses the energy field?

 

The attack hits automatically against a Tank Shock.

I believe that Eldar void shields (or whatever they're called) only work outisde of 12" range or soemthing, so it should be a non-factor.

[gettothegone]

Right they are, but I was just thinking shooting from inside, or from a weapon mounted on the vehicle and not tank shock/ram scenarios when going to turn 6 and beyond.

 

The idea is to park your tank appropriately, and deny them logical space to work in a contest without exposing troops... which also gives you the objective and denying them one instead of a contest which we're trying to avoid. If you disembark from your tank you'll also be skirting objective range if you bubble up. If they have enough long range elements to their army, exposing you to getting shot up and running off the objective anyway. So you'd have to move your tank and park behind it as well, but now we're getting into a lot of "whatifs".

 

Usually a last second contest is done by a 24" moving skimmer of some sort which means they can't do much else that turn at all. Having troops outside would be better spent setting up properly so that they can't fly over you, forcing them away from the objective. Most people aren't going to tank shock, or ram on a turn 6 when really all they want to do is contest and provide themselves the best defensive utility should the game go beyond turn 5.

 

Usually having a melta gun in a group is enough to prevent people from tank shocking a unit anyway. There is also the whole "do 24" moving skimmers get cover saves against the autohitting melta gun" argument as well.

 

Rhino, I was thinking Speeders on the 3+, but right most fast tanks would be 4+ so you're right.

 

Again, I'll post pictures when I get home explaining what I'm meaning, and the way I would set up objectives and deny fast moving skimmers the ability to contest at the last second.

[Gornall]

Energy field and turbo-boost still affect Death or Glory, so in this case, a Meltabomb is better than a Meltagun because it's a CC attack and bypasses the energy field and cover save both.

[DarkGuard]

Forgive me, but wouldn't the only fast skimmers able to do a tank shock be Eldar skimmers? Tau skimmers can tank shock, but aren't fast so they wouldn't get the cover, while the fast ones (Pirahna's sp?) aren't tanks. Dark Eldar skimmers aren't tanks, and Space Marine Land Speeders aren't tanks either. So there's a limited amount of flat out moving fast skimmers you can tank shock. Chances are they wouldn't want to risk a tank shock unless they had to, so if they could they'd just move it to within 3" of the objective.

 

O and something else. I'd imagine everyone is currently talking about an objective as a fixed point, no bigger than a standard or Terminator base? However, take into consideration if you use a whole piece of terrain as an objective (which I personally prefer). It would be much harder to provide an effective cordon or vehicle blocking power for that, making it easier for the fast skimmer, plus they wouldn't have to tank shock/ ram.

[gettothegone]

Yeah, I assume objectives are just little markers on a table. Terrain changes the entire thing.

[Arkios]

The wording of the rules states that fast moving skimmers get the 4+ cover save against shooting attacks if they have moved flat out in their last movement phase. Note the LAST MOVEMENT PHASE part, not current movement phase. So against Death or Glory (which occurs in the current movement phase), fast skimmers shouldn't get their cover save unless they moved flat out in their previous turn.

[Chengar Qordath]

66% chance of hitting it.

66% chance of it making its 3+ cover.

33% chance of a glance / pen

33% chance of destroyed result.

 

5% chance...ish overall? Someonemathhammer that?

Mathhammer on the last part is off; Meltaguns have +1 on the vehicle damage table for being AP 1, and when a skimmer is moving flat out being immobilised makes it count as wrecked, so there's actually a 67% chance of a destroyed result. If it's open-topped on top of that (LSS and Dark Eldar) then it's 83% chance of a kill on a penetrating hit, and 50% on a glance (ouch!).

 

Also, while you didn't specify a vehicle, I can't find anything fast skimmers that would only have a 33% chance of being glanced or penetrated by a meltagun at point blank range; even the Eldar Wave serpent is at a 50% chance of glance/pen, and anything else that doesn't have protection from a meltagun's 2d6 is a lot more vulnerable.

 

Others have already mentioned that the cover save is 4+, not 3+.

 

Assuming we're dealing with a Wave Serpent moving flat out, we get the following results for a Death or Glory attempt:

 

auto-hit x 3/6 (Cover Save) x {[2/6 x 4/6](Pen + Kill) + [1/6 x 2/6](Glance + Kill)} = 13.89% chance of killing the vehicle.

[bystrom]

My problem lies in a fast-moving falcon or fire prism with spirit stones and holofields, if they choose to tank-shock, you can't stun it and roll 2D6 choose the lowest for armour penetration, meaning destroyed/immobilised not on 50% (67% for AP1) but 25% (44% for AP1), which aren't great odds for a make-it-or-lose roll. And that's if they choose to tank-shock, if they can just stand idly beside it, you don't get a chance at all. And these vehicles aren't the easiest to bring down to begin with (so no starting turn 4 and trying to bring them down, you shoot from turn 1 and maybe you'll bring them down - and it really is maybe, 4 missile launchers shooting a falcon/fire prism will have, assuming no cover, 39%-50% to bring one down, in 5-7 turns of constant shooting).

 

IIRC, dark eldar vehicles can get an upgrade that allows them to tank-shock, or something similar. I'll have to remember to try and use my rhino as a wall, in such a way that they'd only be able to ram it and hope for a vehicle explodes, should make it a lot harder to contest.

[BlackSpike]

The Dark Eldar vehicle upgrade only allows Tank Shock, and is specifically FAQed to not allow Rams vs vehicles, which helps a little - use rhinos, not troops to block it.

[Chengar Qordath]

Death or Glory is a very good option against Dark Eldar skimmers so long as there's a high-strength weapon in the squad; a meltagun will penetrate a Raider on anything other than double ones (which is still a glancing hit) and the combination of AP 1 and open-topped results in a +2 on the vehicle damage table.

[Arikel]

Slightly off topic rules question: You guys keep talking about using a melta gun for death or glory but I was under the impression that death or glory is melee only(powerfists,claws, grenades and meltabombs etc). Am I wrong about that?