? saga of the hunter ?

[12TONAPE]

So how exactly does the saga of the hunter actualy work? Can I take a wolf preist with saga of the hunter with my wolf scouts after the FAQ and still use my scouts as is or does it effect play? If not what exactly is the point of this saga? If I could take it with a dude on a thunderwolf and just wreck :tu: on the flanks we'd be good but you can't so whats up?

[Stormshrug]

It looks like from the new FAQ, you can take a Wolf Priest with Saga of the Hunter along with an Outflanking Scout pack. You cannot, however, mount one on a Thunderwolf, since Saga of the Hunter may be applied only to Infantry (so no Jump Packs or Bikes, either).

 

As to WHEN to use Saga of the Hunter? Personally, I run a Wolf Guard Battle Leader with it in some larger games; accompanied by some Fenrisian Wolves, he's been quite an asset for me. Throw on Meltabombs, and you've got a stealthy close combat killer who can Tank Hunt in a pinch. It's not for everybody; he can't compete with a Saga of the Warrior Born double Wolf Claw-bearing Wolf Lord in Terminator Armor for kills in Close Combat, but he's got both versatility and surprise factor on his side, which I've come to greatly appreciate.

 

 

-Stormshrug

[stinkenheim]

only models on foot can use it (although others can take it but its kind of a waste of points for them) and it allows you to outfank on your own or with a unit of scouts that were held in reserve. if coming on with the scouts you would use their behind Enemy Lines chart to resolve where they enter play from.

you cannot infiltrate with the saga, merely outflank so its uses are a bit limited.

i would only consider it if i wer taking large units of scouts, small units like i take (6 man normally) do not have the required staying power for me to justify it.

[Schertenleib]

I used it with a Wolf Priest and Scouts in a 1500 pt fight. Came in handy having an INv save to throw in there.

[stinkenheim]

yeah but you could get a better save and cheaper by putting a WG with storm shield in there.

[TiguriusX]

only models on foot can use it (although others can take it but its kind of a waste of points for them) and it allows you to outfank on your own or with a unit of scouts that were held in reserve. if coming on with the scouts you would use their behind Enemy Lines chart to resolve where they enter play from.

you cannot infiltrate with the saga, merely outflank so its uses are a bit limited.

i would only consider it if i wer taking large units of scouts, small units like i take (6 man normally) do not have the required staying power for me to justify it.

 

My reading of the FAQ for IC and scouts leads me to believe you can't use OBEL even if you have saga of the hunter.

 

You can outflank but not OBEL.

 

Do you have another source for an HQ who has saga of the hunter being allowed to OBEL?

[Schertenleib]

only models on foot can use it (although others can take it but its kind of a waste of points for them) and it allows you to outfank on your own or with a unit of scouts that were held in reserve. if coming on with the scouts you would use their behind Enemy Lines chart to resolve where they enter play from.

you cannot infiltrate with the saga, merely outflank so its uses are a bit limited.

i would only consider it if i wer taking large units of scouts, small units like i take (6 man normally) do not have the required staying power for me to justify it.

 

My reading of the FAQ for IC and scouts leads me to believe you can't use OBEL even if you have saga of the hunter.

 

You can outflank but not OBEL.

 

Do you have another source for an HQ who has saga of the hunter being allowed to OBEL?

 

 

Oh, let's not start this again.....

 

OBEL is how SW Outflank. Codex supersedes BRB in such cases (according to the BRB).

[Coverfire]

I was considering using this saga in my next force until I re read it and then saw this thread.

 

I originally thought it was like the Apocalyspe Flank March rule so it could be used with our Wolf Scouts OBEL, until I reread it.

 

I am unsure that Flanking and OBEL is the same, I would personally say not and unless I had something to back up the claim I would not use it at a tournament.

 

I am equally unsure about the claim that it prevents Thunderwolf riders from being able to take the saga. It probably goes against the spirit of the rule to take a WGBL with TWM and the saga of the Hunter but at least it is clearer to explain then "Well actually, OBEL is Outflanking for Space Wolves"

 

If you do take the Saga of the Hunter to join Wolf Scouts I would expect two things.

1. The Wolf Scouts lose OBEL and can only Outflank due to their ability to infiltrate

2. They Outflank using the outflank special rule and NOT on an OBEL roll of 3+

[Spacefrisian]

I think it was intended that the Battleleader was to be an IC option for Scouts to use their Obel type outflank. Fluff wise a Wolfpack doesn't hunt alone.

[Stormshrug]

I'm fairly confident that a Wolf Guard Battle Leader or Wolf Priest with the Saga may NOT join an OBELing squad.

 

Edit: D'oh! I was thinking of the old codex. Looks like there's no cap on OBEL now.

 

-Stormshrug

[TiguriusX]

only models on foot can use it (although others can take it but its kind of a waste of points for them) and it allows you to outfank on your own or with a unit of scouts that were held in reserve. if coming on with the scouts you would use their behind Enemy Lines chart to resolve where they enter play from.

you cannot infiltrate with the saga, merely outflank so its uses are a bit limited.

i would only consider it if i wer taking large units of scouts, small units like i take (6 man normally) do not have the required staying power for me to justify it.

 

My reading of the FAQ for IC and scouts leads me to believe you can't use OBEL even if you have saga of the hunter.

 

You can outflank but not OBEL.

 

Do you have another source for an HQ who has saga of the hunter being allowed to OBEL?

 

 

 

Oh, let's not start this again.....

 

OBEL is how SW Outflank. Codex supersedes BRB in such cases (according to the BRB).

 

You are very cavalier about a very important rule interpretation. If there is an official ruling somewhere please direct me to it. Otherwise this is how I see the breakdown:

 

Let us start with official SW FAQ

 

Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard

Pack Leader assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators,

make a move before the game begins because of

its Scouts ability, choose to outflank or use

Behind Enemy Lines?

A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard

Pack Leader is not an Independent Character and

therefore the fact he does not have the Infiltrate

or Scouts ability does not preclude the squad he

has joined from using those abilities.

 

Space wolf scouts have scout and OBEL as special rules. They are two separate rules.

Scout grants outflank + scout movement

OBEL improves outflank

 

When a basic IC joins the scouts he prevents them from using scout/outflank because he does not have either special rule.

 

When an IC with Saga of the Hunter joints the scouts he now has his own outflank special rule. He is still lacking OBEL.

 

Furthermore, OBEL is not how "Space Wolves" outflank. There is no special rule applying OBEL to every space wolf unit. It is a specific rule granted to scouts.

 

I would love nothing more than to have IC OBEL with scouts but I also want to defend my position based on the rules.

[Spacefrisian]

Even if not the board has corners so even with if bith cannot come from the sam edge they still can join up from the same corner.

[stinkenheim]

the rules for OBEl state that when a scout unit outflanks you roll on the OBEL table rather than te standard.

to me arguing that a scout unit with character (who has SOTH) cannot use BEL is wrong as i mention above, BEL is a modification of the standard outflank rules and not a seperate rule, therefore it stands to reason that the do not lose it if joined by a character who does not have it.

 

'Behind Enemy Lines; if a wolf scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be deployed...'

 

as the unit is still outflanking there is nothing in the rule that prevents them from doing it should an IC be joned to them, or at least thats how i see it.

 

also, as i see it, saying that instead they would have to outflank using their infiltrate move is wrong. RAW a unit with infiltrate/scout that is joined by a character without would lose that special rule.

to me it comes down to an 'all or nothing' approach. either you say they lose their ability to outflank as the character that has joined them ahs neither infiltrate or scout (thus removing it rom the scouts) or the scouts retain their abilites and allow the attached IC to use their modified outflank table.

 

one other thing to point out, when units are put into reserve you must declare how they are entering play and cannot change it later. if you say that the IC makes the scout unit lose it infiltrate/scout rulethen once attached to the unit neither can enter play from reserves as the scouts would be unable to outflank as they would have lost the two rules that allow them to do so. the IC would be unable to leave the unit as he needs to be on table to do that. you would also be unable to change the method by which they enter play once they had been put in reserve, so if you say they are outflnking you cannot then decide that they are simply coming on normally.

 

i appreciate its a grey area but thats how i see it, BEL as stated in the codex is a modification of the Outflnak chart and not a seperate rule that is lost should someone without it join the unit.

the referance in the FAQ was dealing with WG joining the unit as people werre unsure whether they were unit upgrades or not, and whether their lack of either infiltrate or scout would prevent the scout squad from outflanking.

 

@ coverfire the TWM states that your unit type changes to cavalry and SOTH states that it is only usable my infantry models.

 

@ stormshrug there is no limit to the amount of units that may use BEL witht his codex.

[Sarapham]

OK a simple way of looking at it.

 

The FAQ states that an IC with Saga of the Hunter may join an outflanking (note the progressive form), which he would not be able to without the saga.

 

When a group of wolf scout wish to outflank you must roll a dice for the OBEL chart, there is no choice in this, this is their normal outflank behavior.

 

So you can attach the IC to the outflanking group of wolf scouts are per the FAQ, because they are still outflanking.. its just the chart that has a different name. And since you have no choice in the matter the IC will follow the Scouts on their OBEL.. because they are still just outflanking with a slight alternate result.

 

With the FAQ I see not problem with an IC following the scouts OBEL.

 

There is already a whole thread about this.

[TiguriusX]

the rules for OBEl state that when a scout unit outflanks you roll on the OBEL table rather than te standard.

to me arguing that a scout unit with character (who has SOTH) cannot use BEL is wrong as i mention above, BEL is a modification of the standard outflank rules and not a seperate rule, therefore it stands to reason that the do not lose it if joined by a character who does not have it.

 

'Behind Enemy Lines; if a wolf scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be deployed...'

 

as the unit is still outflanking there is nothing in the rule that prevents them from doing it should an IC be joned to them, or at least thats how i see it.

The counter argument to that is the IC does not have OBEL. OBEL is a specific rule. It is listed in the scout entries on pages 27 and 41 as a "special rule"

 

also, as i see it, saying that instead they would have to outflank using their infiltrate move is wrong. RAW a unit with infiltrate/scout that is joined by a character without would lose that special rule.

to me it comes down to an 'all or nothing' approach. either you say they lose their ability to outflank as the character that has joined them ahs neither infiltrate or scout (thus removing it rom the scouts) or the scouts retain their abilites and allow the attached IC to use their modified outflank table.

Infiltrate doesn't grant outflank. Scout grants outflank. And as saga of the hunter also provides outflank there is unit synergy and the rule is allowed

 

one other thing to point out, when units are put into reserve you must declare how they are entering play and cannot change it later. if you say that the IC makes the scout unit lose it infiltrate/scout rulethen once attached to the unit neither can enter play from reserves as the scouts would be unable to outflank as they would have lost the two rules that allow them to do so. the IC would be unable to leave the unit as he needs to be on table to do that. you would also be unable to change the method by which they enter play once they had been put in reserve, so if you say they are outflnking you cannot then decide that they are simply coming on normally.

This is not what my rule interpretation results in. The IC does not remove outflank (which derives from scout). You declare scouts and IC are outflanking. No further problems.

 

i appreciate its a grey area but thats how i see it, BEL as stated in the codex is a modification of the Outflnak chart and not a seperate rule that is lost should someone without it join the unit.

the referance in the FAQ was dealing with WG joining the unit as people werre unsure whether they were unit upgrades or not, and whether their lack of either infiltrate or scout would prevent the scout squad from outflanking.

OBEL is a separate special rule. It modifies outflanking rolls and is listed separately in two scout entries as discussed above.

[TiguriusX]

OK a simple way of looking at it.

 

The FAQ states that an IC with Saga of the Hunter may join an outflanking (note the progressive form), which he would not be able to without the saga.

 

When a group of wolf scout wish to outflank you must roll a dice for the OBEL chart, there is no choice in this, this is their normal outflank behavior.

It is an improved outflank behavior because of their additional OBEL special rule

 

So you can attach the IC to the outflanking group of wolf scouts are per the FAQ, because they are still outflanking.. its just the chart that has a different name. And since you have no choice in the matter the IC will follow the Scouts on their OBEL.. because they are still just outflanking with a slight alternate result.

This is where we disagree. Because the IC doesn't have OBEL they roll on the normal chart

 

There is already a whole thread about this.

This is the best thread I found:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=189118

 

Opinions are split for the same reason. I will let the issue go.

 

Just be aware that OBEL for IC is not a slam dunk. If you are relying on it for your army list be aware of this potential problem.

[stinkenheim]

BRB USR p 75 + 76

 

Infiltrate- ... Infiltrate also confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve (see page 94)

 

Scouts- ...This rule also cnfers a special outflank move to units of scouts kept in reserve (see page 94)

 

both of those special rules (along with several others that are highlighted on the page) are lost if a unit is joined by a character without them regardless of an synergy there may be so RAW SOTH only applies to the IC and he would be unable to outflank should he join a unit, he would also prevet said unit from outflanking as thy would lose both special rules that allow them to in the first place.

 

now, i'm not saying that should happen but it is certainly a valid arguement and one that people should be aware of.

 

BEL does not say the unit loses it should they be joined by a character without, much like units with FNP do not lose the rule should they be joined by a character. my view on the arguement is that as the scout unit is fulfiling the requirements set out by the rule (entering pla using outflank) that they are allowed to modify the chart they use as usual.

We can go round in circles about whether it is allowed or not, I personally do not take SOTH and as I said in an earlier post i would only take it if i included large units of scouts an even then Im not sure about its merits. Neither of us can provide any evidence that the unit is either lost by the unit or gained by the IC and there are multiple examples of both prevelant throughout numerous army books.

 

a couple of things i would ask you though. if you attached an IC to a unit of scouts wold you roll two dice for their reserves? if the answer is no then are you saying the unit of scouts and the IC count as a single unit? If yes, then would you concur that the line in the BEL rule would apply 'should a unit of scouts make use of its ability to outflank...' as the unit of scouts (which includes the IC) meets the requirments set out in the rule?

 

easiest way, discuss it with your opponent before the game and come to a conclusion about it. if you are at odds with each other dice off and use the result as it is a back and forth arguement that needed answering to fully clear it up.