Black Legion; What's the Appeal

[Lexington]

Or have Abbadon destroy some no-name Chapter or Craftworld. Have Abbadon annihilate the ‘’Star Swords’’ chapter. A chapter that nobody had heard of until they were invented to show off Abbadon’s awesomeness. Have him annhilate their fortress monastary and have the Black Legion feast on their geneseed.

Eh, this just strikes me as 'Marneus Calgar kills a Avatar' all over again. Annihilating even a small-time Space Marine Chapter is an objectively impressive feat, but it's not very interesting on its own. That's not to say it couldn't be so given the right details, but they're what would give it heft.

 

I think the problem with Abbadon doesn't really lie with him so much as presentation. 40K has never been a place of realistic military strategy, but it's lately turned into a semi-comic universe that's more representative of Dragonball Z than sci-fi. Two armies line up across the battlefield, scream at each other, fight for a while until their leaders clash in single combat, the results of which decide the entire battle. The loser goes home and licks their wounds, the winner declares victory, brags, then they do it all over again the next day.

 

In a universe like this, Abbadon's record of "failures" comes off badly, but that's because looking beyond the next battle is well beyond the sort of universe 40K has become. Abbadon's Black Crusades, as they were originally published, weren't aimed at "defeating" the Imperium. The were part of a long-term strategy to collect resources (the Black Fortresses, Drach'nyen, etc) and weaken key Imperial strong points in order to facilitate an eventual strike against the Imperium that will devestate them. The Despoiler isn't scary because of what he's done, but because of what he's doing.

[Gree]

Or have Abbadon destroy some no-name Chapter or Craftworld. Have Abbadon annihilate the ‘’Star Swords’’ chapter. A chapter that nobody had heard of until they were invented to show off Abbadon’s awesomeness. Have him annhilate their fortress monastary and have the Black Legion feast on their geneseed.

Eh, this just strikes me as 'Marneus Calgar kills a Avatar' all over again. Annihilating even a small-time Space Marine Chapter is an objectively impressive feat, but it's not very interesting on its own. That's not to say it couldn't be so given the right details, but they're what would give it heft.

 

I think the problem with Abbadon doesn't really lie with him so much as presentation. 40K has never been a place of realistic military strategy, but it's lately turned into a semi-comic universe that's more representative of Dragonball Z than sci-fi. Two armies line up across the battlefield, scream at each other, fight for a while until their leaders clash in single combat, the results of which decide the entire battle. The loser goes home and licks their wounds, the winner declares victory, brags, then they do it all over again the next day.

 

In a universe like this, Abbadon's record of "failures" comes off badly, but that's because looking beyond the next battle is well beyond the sort of universe 40K has become. Abbadon's Black Crusades, as they were originally published, weren't aimed at "defeating" the Imperium. The were part of a long-term strategy to collect resources (the Black Fortresses, Drach'nyen, etc) and weaken key Imperial strong points in order to facilitate an eventual strike against the Imperium that will devestate them. The Despoiler isn't scary because of what he's done, but because of what he's doing.

 

I am fully aware of that. However most people don't and view Abbadon as a failure.

[Lexington]

I am fully aware of that. However most people don't and view Abbadon as a failure.

I don't know about 'most people,' (or most '40K players,' as it goes) but you're right that it's a 40K online community meme, especially locally. I just don't think the answer is to write more victories for Abbadon into Codexes and Black Library novels; it's to write better Codexes and Black Library novels.

[Trel]

Better Codices and BL novels may well be out of the practical reach of most of the writing team. :D (I kid...kinda.)

 

Instead of puffing up Abbadon's record with a few curb-stompings of successor Chapters like some boxer whose 35-0 record is mostly against girl scouts and retired petting-zoo animals, GW should let its audience in on what Abbadon's plans are.

 

If Black Crusade X had the goals A, B, and C, which on a whole did not seem particularly impressive but facilitated Black Crusade Y, which, after accomplishing D, E, and F, would then lead into Black Crusade Z, which is an assault on a now-weakened Holy Terra itself; then you've got a pretty impressive and intimidating guy.

 

Instead of fuming at his defeat, Abbadon should be described as standing on the observation deck of his flagship, which is not retreating but making a strategic withdrawal, looking over the results of his latest action with a wry smile on his face and chuckling about how "every piece falling into place," and "the deluded Imperial fools don't even know how they themselves are facilitating their eventual destruction."

 

The idea should not be, "Well, he's on the surface of Cadia, but it hasn't fallen yet so it's OK." It should be, "Now the Imperials have to spend resources re-taking Cadia, which will result in a local Praeses Chapter fully mobilizing and ignoring an otherwise backwater planet which, unbeknownst to the Imperials, houses an incredibly powerful Chaos artifact from a long-dead xenos civilization etc etc etc"

[Dark Mechanicum]

That is how they usually describe him, in Liber Chaotica when the "vision" describes the black crusades you have the slight reasons behind each of those and what he wanted. But yea, oh on Bell of Lost Souls their having a close combat poll on special characters and Abaddon is up near the top behind the Swarmlord.

[Gree]

I am fully aware of that. However most people don't and view Abbadon as a failure.

I don't know about 'most people,' (or most '40K players,' as it goes) but you're right that it's a 40K online community meme, especially locally. I just don't think the answer is to write more victories for Abbadon into Codexes and Black Library novels; it's to write better Codexes and Black Library novels.

 

My idea of better is more victories. Because simply Abbadon really has none.

 

At a Black Legion player and fan I can honestly say I want to see actual complete victories for Abbadon.

 

Instead of puffing up Abbadon's record with a few curb-stompings of successor Chapters like some boxer whose 35-0 record is mostly against girl scouts and retired petting-zoo animals, GW should let its audience in on what Abbadon's plans are.

 

Then have him stomp the First Founding Chapters in the past. We have ten thousand years for Abbadon to deavastate the Blood Angels and have them rebuild for example. We could have abbadon do it in 334.M35, thousands of years before the current setting but give him a victory as well.

[Lexington]

My idea of better is more victories. Because simply Abbadon really has none.

Really? From here, the guy seems to have nothing but strategic victories to his name. His Black Crusades have all netted positive results. Recently, he's more or less taken Cadia out of the equation and is tooling around in his planet-sundering hellship doing God knows what. Sure, he suffers the occasional defeat in battle reports and the like, but that's the chaff of history for a man who's fighting a millennia-long war against a galactic empire.

 

Then have him stomp the First Founding Chapters in the past. We have ten thousand years for Abbadon to deavastate the Blood Angels and have them rebuild for example. We could have abbadon do it in 334.M35, thousands of years before the current setting but give him a victory as well.

But why? Abbadon's goals are much bigger and scarier than "kill some Blood Angels." Sure, he probably takes some delight in it, but at the end of the day, the spawn of Sanguinus are just another fighting force of the Imperium. Detailing some long-ago victory just to make people stop yammering on about Abbadon's "failure" seems petty and trite, and as the face of the Traitor Legions, Abbadon should be anything but.

[minigun762]

I have the sense that Abaddon is in control not because he is some tactical genius or born leader but because nobody else wants the position, or nobody in power wants the position.

 

I can't help but think that he is treated more as a spoiled child who might take away your toys if you don't play by his rules. You want to play with his fancy toys so you shut up and deal with it, all the while waiting until you find someone else who has nicer toys to share.

[Gree]

My idea of better is more victories. Because simply Abbadon really has none.

Really? From here, the guy seems to have nothing but strategic victories to his name. His Black Crusades have all netted positive results. Recently, he's more or less taken Cadia out of the equation and is tooling around in his planet-sundering hellship doing God knows what. Sure, he suffers the occasional defeat in battle reports and the like, but that's the chaff of history for a man who's fighting a millennia-long war against a galactic empire.

 

How? Do you have a detailed list of what his Black Crusades have achived? We are told vague things at best. I as a Black Legion player do not feel like I have anything to be proud of with him.

 

But that's not really my point. We are told he is doing this stuff, but never shown. In fact the Black Crusades feel like Imperial victories more than anything else to me.

 

And it's more than a few defeats. Abbadon has suffered defeats, or draws in all of the recent short stories or battle reports he had been involved in with 4th and 5th edition. He's lost more than's he's won at this point, and it's deeply unsatisfying to me.

 

But why? Abbadon's goals are much bigger and scarier than "kill some Blood Angels." Sure, he probably takes some delight in it, but at the end of the day, the spawn of Sanguinus are just another fighting force of the Imperium. Detailing some long-ago victory just to make people stop yammering on about Abbadon's "failure" seems petty and trite, and as the face of the Traitor Legions, Abbadon should be anything but.

 

I know that, however the bulk of people don't really pay attention to that and I myself would really like to see Abbadon get a solid, complete victory to at least shut up the people who say ''LOL Failbaddon''

[Dark Mechanicum]

@Gree: That is very true, its one of those: Told badass, not shown. Other Chaos Lords have that shown.

 

Khârn: Splinters TWO legions in one night of fire and death.

 

Typhus: Has his plague fleets and makes plague zombies wherever he wants to go.

 

Lucius: Kills off commanders and if he dies...he takes over them.

 

Huron: Well, there is the Badab War, the battle in the codex.

 

Fabius: in BL you have him almost taking out the Blood Angels in strife, tries to clone Horus, and lots of other gene-seed related things.

 

Now we get to Abaddon...and all we get are his Black Crusades. Thats it, no goals for them, nothing on effects of them, its sad actually.

[Gree]

Typhus: Has his plague fleets and makes plague zombies wherever he wants to go.

 

More than that actually, he get's a good showing in Cadian Blood and anyone remmeber the old fluff of him wiping out an entire Cadian company?

 

Anyway, we are told that abbadon is the most powerful Chaos lord. We are told that he is an awesome warrior and commander. We are told that his Black Crusades daevastate the Imperium.

 

But we are not shown it.

 

Instead, most of the battles that are described in fluff have Abbadon losing, or getting a draw. He almost never see anything good from the Warmaster of Chaos. The best we have is Mackan and some vague mutterings about a master plan in the fluff.

[Beaky]

@Dark Mechanicum: You could also argue that Fabius Bile had a hand in hijacking the entire 21st founding. (or was it the 13th? I get The Dark Founding and The Cursed Founding confused.)

 

@Gree's excellent post yesterday: I don't think even something as minor as destroying an entire Space Marine chapter would be that impressive for Abaddon. A story where Abaddon destroys a chapter to seize their forges and manufacturing plants to produce armor, vehicles and equipment for his war machine sounds a bit more his style. What really sets him apart from the other Chaos lords to me is that the guy has vision and likes to think BIG.

 

Which reminds me, apart from Abaddon being credited with creating Defilers, is there any real backstory for that? Imperial vehicles got full blown Index Astarte articles, but I don't remember anything more than a paragraph or two about the Chaos 'wacky tank.'

 

Back to the original subject, one of the things I liked about the Black Legion is just how mercenary they are in their methods. I really feel like once they got over the whole possession thing, they began viewing Chaos as a tool, a means to an end (specifically, of the Imperium) rather than gods to be worshiped.

[Lord of Worms]

Which reminds me, apart from Abaddon being credited with creating Defilers, is there any real backstory for that? Imperial vehicles got full blown Index Astarte articles, but I don't remember anything more than a paragraph or two about the Chaos 'wacky tank.'

I don't think they ever say he invented it. It was invented under his aegis, there's a difference there.

[Kizzdougs]

Personally, I think the only explanation to this wretched lapse is that Zaraphiston is the true power behind the throne. Abaddon is just a puppet figurehead.

zaraphiston has fallen out of favour with abadddon.Ygethmor the deceiver is the new kid on the block (sorcerous pet).

[Lord of Worms]

zaraphiston has fallen out of favour with abadddon.Ygethmor the deceiver is the new kid on the block (sorcerous pet).

 

Ygethmor is dead. Zaraphiston never went out of favour, Ygethmor died trying to replace him.

[Clewz]

@Gree's excellent post yesterday: I don't think even something as minor as destroying an entire Space Marine chapter would be that impressive for Abaddon. A story where Abaddon destroys a chapter to seize their forges and manufacturing plants to produce armor, vehicles and equipment for his war machine sounds a bit more his style. What really sets him apart from the other Chaos lords to me is that the guy has vision and likes to think BIG.

 

I'd agree with that. In storm of Iron it is abaddon thats told the warsmith to destroy the imperials on that world.

Also In hammer of daemons it mentions that whole worlds are being put to exterminatus by the inquisition in the 13th black crusade as they are afraid of him getting a foot hold. That hardly sounds like a massive victory to the imperium.

[Dark Mechanicum]

@Lord of Worms: Oh yea it was Ygethmor who got eldar wacked at Medusa V...i'm a dumbass.

 

@Beaky: I didn't know that one about him but that is epic.

 

@Gree: Oh yea, tis time for the supreme chaos lord to get his comeuppance. Victories are needed, We want BLOOD and DEATH on a massive score from him.

 

@Clewz: and in Soul Hunter

Abaddon goes after a forge world to get the machines for his titans.

 

[Brother Nihm]

Which reminds me, apart from Abaddon being credited with creating Defilers, is there any real backstory for that? Imperial vehicles got full blown Index Astarte articles, but I don't remember anything more than a paragraph or two about the Chaos 'wacky tank.'

I don't think they ever say he invented it. It was invented under his aegis, there's a difference there.

If I remember correctly Abaddon wanted a mobile siege gun around the time of the EoT campaign, and so he turned to one of his tech-marines (Salernia) for help.

That tech-marine was/is a specialist in the design of Dreadnoughts and he used that knowledge to adapt the technology to Defilers.

 

The creation of a Defiler involves human sacrifice as well as sorceror-led rituals to bind a lesser Daemon to the vehicle.

 

 

I don't have it with me right now but, there is an article on the creation of Defilers, it's by Graham McNeill and can be found in UK WD #282.

that is another + right there for the Black Legion.

[Gree]

I'd agree with that. In storm of Iron it is abaddon thats told the warsmith to destroy the imperials on that world.

Also In hammer of daemons it mentions that whole worlds are being put to exterminatus by the inquisition in the 13th black crusade as they are afraid of him getting a foot hold. That hardly sounds like a massive victory to the imperium.

 

He still got turned back and we never really got any kind of deep detail at all into those planets. As I said before, we just get vague notions of abbadon's plans and battles.

[David the Despoiler]

It's sort of funny, but by not giving Abaddon any "real" victories, it sort of keeps his fanbase rather pure, those that can appreciate his tactical capabilities and vision.

 

Back on topic, I never thought of Abaddon as a diplomat, which is how he was displayed in Soul Hunter, I always thought of him as a dark, brooding figure. The "final boss" if you will, that dark silhouette just over the horizon. But then again, who's to say he isn't both?

 

Now, I find it curious that we automatically turn a discussion about the Black Legion into a discussion about Abaddon. Yes, he is their leader, the great Warmaster, but what about the actual Black Legionnaires? What's their spin on things?

[Theis]

I always found this to be an interesting glimpse into the life of a regular Black Legion marine;

 

Diary of a Chaos Space Marine

 

Sure, it's a bit silly, but it might spark an idea or two.

 

As an aside, A-D-B, while reading Soul Hunter, I remember thinking to myself, "This is the first glimpse I've had of Abaddon where the author gets him." I sincerely hope you get the opportunity to write about his rise to power.

[Brother Nihm]

As an aside, A-D-B, while reading Soul Hunter, I remember thinking to myself, "This is the first glimpse I've had of Abaddon where the author gets him." I sincerely hope you get the opportunity to write about his rise to power.

Execution Hour, by Gordon Rennie was mine. Awesome book that.

[Walter Payton]

As an aside, A-D-B, while reading Soul Hunter, I remember thinking to myself, "This is the first glimpse I've had of Abaddon where the author gets him." I sincerely hope you get the opportunity to write about his rise to power.

Execution Hour, by Gordon Rennie was mine. Awesome book that.

 

Definetely!

 

The main thing that dissapoints me about Abaddon is the comparisom to his WFB equivalent. Lets not lie, if Archaeon was leading the Black Legion, the Imperium would burn!

[Dràyhèn]

It's sort of funny, but by not giving Abaddon any "real" victories, it sort of keeps his fanbase rather pure, those that can appreciate his tactical capabilities and vision.

Yes, there's a good point. The true legionnaires don't view those "failed crusades" through the same lenses as the heretics who would dare to doubt Black Legion's prowess, let alone Abaddon's. Maybe we should be given a bigger glimpse of his goals and master-plans, something which would strike fear and doubt into loyalists hearts, something to instill the feeling that something is awfully wrong, that there is a more complex and cunning plan behind these Crusades which they just can't fathom.

 

And if the inquisitors are ready to extinguish all life on a planet which has been visited by a Black Crusade, and if even the High Lords themselves cower in fear of what's headed on their way... I think they don't look much like laughing and spitting on Black Legion or Abaddon. After all, there's not that much harm in ravaging individual warbands. Tyranid splinter fleets aren't that scary, neither some lone warboss with his boyz, but when there's someone strong enough to unite them and craft those individual "components" into a bigger, perfectly working and organized force - now there's a threat to be truly reckoned with.

 

Besides, Abaddon has got the things he has set his sights on, and they have been worth those "tactical sacrifices". I mean, those Blackstone Fortresses are scary.

[Gree]

And if the inquisitors are ready to extinguish all life on a planet which has been visited by a Black Crusade, and if even the High Lords themselves cower in fear of what's headed on their way... I think they don't look much like laughing and spitting on Black Legion or Abaddon. After all, there's not that much harm in ravaging individual warbands. Tyranid splinter fleets aren't that scary, neither some lone warboss with his boyz, but when there's someone strong enough to unite them and craft those individual "components" into a bigger, perfectly working and organized force - now there's a threat to be truly reckoned with.

 

Oh, I know that, but ask around or Warseer of Dakka Dakka what people think of Abbadon and you will get ''LOL Failbaddon'' the point is, a large chunk of the fanbase holds that opinion.