Finally someone worth fighting !

[whitewolfmxc]

All vehicules EXCEPT the Land Raider is fast! so at least theres one Tank thats still as slow as ever!

 

This isnt that leaked PDF that was found to be totally bogus was it?

 

 

I also find it curious how it always seems we're pretty much the only forum discussing each new release and how to kill it off the bat. Shows our mentality as wolves and the desire to kill ASAP

 

 

XD Yes we wolves are serious when it comes down to the kill area XD

[Sarapham]

The lack of IC and invulnerable save make Mephiston a big 250 point meh.

 

Perhaps not "meh" but those are very good points. We should stop thinking of him as a monster marine and actually more consider him a real monster with all that comes with it. Adapt your tactics against him like you would against a greater daemon or a Hive tyrant because the same stuff works except he may be in a transport, but then he will be the only one in that transport.

 

 

On the subject of Logan´s points versus Meph´s you have to remember that while Meph has a good chance of whopping Logan hard, that is the only thing he does.. whopp stuff. Logan brings much more to the table than just himself. Heck even most of the BA´s psychic powers are extremely offensive or just buffs to single models so those three powers a turn he might get off will probably just affect him.

[Emperor's Scourge]

There're so many furious charge, preferred enemy, and feel no pain options in this book. Its just...I don't know...mind boggling when you try to come up with justifications for some of these rules. I actually find the fake PDF a bit more believable than the GW codex I've read with my own eyes.

 

I just imagine Matt Ward in a roomful of GW execs defending the codex.

 

"Ok so...umm...your latest effort's pretty interesting Matt"

 

"Cheers!"

 

"Can you maybe tell us why you made Librarian Dreads with fleet, I10, S10...oh yeah and umm...they can count as jump infantry...Oh yes, they can drag a vehicle from up to 24" away and hit it until its dead in the same round?"

 

"Cause its cool gov'nor"

 

"Why are Furioso Dreads, at their most basic set up, equal to Ironclad Dreads...but with WS6 and for less points?"

 

"Because Furioso is close to furious so I figured thats how they should make C:SM players feel."

 

"Right...why do the Honour Guard give every unit within 6" feel no pain and furious charge?"

 

"Cause they're super excited to be around 'em!"

 

"Ok...so they're more excited by fighting alongside a random honour guard squad than say...I don't know...Dante?"

 

"Totally!"

 

"Speaking of...you realize Dante allows you to deep strike 30 Death Company marines without a chance of scattering?"

 

"Yep!"

 

"There are some pretty wacky things going on here dude..."

 

"You don't know the half of it! Wait until millions of gamers get their hands on this codex and :P really starts getting wild."

 

"Sweet, we love it! When can you start on the next one?"

[JamesI]

Well if the BA Codex is out at stores for reveiw/preveiw, why on earth isnt it on the GW website for advanced order :S.

It will be today (well, it is supposed to be up today)

[MagneticFreak]

Matt Ward books....sigh. For those who play Fantasy, Deamons of Chaos should also bring bitter memories.

 

Seriously, GW has to start to think about solving that guy's problem. I am not sure the game itself can suffer this author for very long.

 

The BA codex looks insane. Not purely from a SW perspective, but overall. I mean Tau players can just wrap up their stuff and leave. Aren't we supposed to be the most deviant codex? Yeah Right! If the epitome of deviantness is riding a giant wolf, then what are the Landers/Dread Librarians/Drop podding Land Raiders/Mephiston stat line supposed to be called?

[whitewolfmxc]

Also to add they have a LOT of codex chapter units (stern guards anyone ? XD) while having all these fancy new units XD oh well , matt your a ........

[CainTheHunter]

Matt Ward books....sigh. For those who play Fantasy, Deamons of Chaos should also bring bitter memories.

 

Seriously, GW has to start to think about solving that guy's problem. I am not sure the game itself can suffer this author for very long.

 

The BA codex looks insane. Not purely from a SW perspective, but overall. I mean Tau players can just wrap up their stuff and leave. Aren't we supposed to be the most deviant codex? Yeah Right! If the epitome of deviantness is riding a giant wolf, then what are the Landers/Dread Librarians/Drop podding Land Raiders/Mephiston stat line supposed to be called?

 

 

Well, he has now beaten Gav Thorp in the Armybook/Codex writing. Gav sucked for the reason of writing underpowered armies which needed several revisions, Matt just goes over the top from the outset.

[Arcus]

Ugh... hearing the new rules is making me feel very morbid. ahh well, in the spirit of the title:

If its an easy win, then its no win at all!

 

The Wolves are lookin' at YOU, Mephiston!!

[Chucku]

Mephiston will be extremely hard to stop. He can buff himself with Jump Pack movement and Fleet - giving him a 19"-24" charge range. He'll be able to easily hide from weapons that can reliably harm him as he moves forward by snuggling in behind a Fast Rhino or other cover. By Turn 2 he'll be well into you. From that point on his main concern will likely be to avoid power weapon-heavy targets and wiping out his opponent too quickly.

[whitewolfmxc]

Ugh... hearing the new rules is making me feel very morbid. ahh well, in the spirit of the title:

If its an easy win, then its no win at all!

 

The Wolves are lookin' at YOU, Mephiston!!

 

 

Thats the spirit we wolves should have , ALE ON ME BROTHER !

[Chucku]

The lack of IC and invulnerable save make Mephiston a big 250 point meh.

 

Perhaps not "meh" but those are very good points. We should stop thinking of him as a monster marine and actually more consider him a real monster with all that comes with it. Adapt your tactics against him like you would against a greater daemon or a Hive tyrant because the same stuff works except he may be in a transport, but then he will be the only one in that transport.

 

 

On the subject of Logan´s points versus Meph´s you have to remember that while Meph has a good chance of whopping Logan hard, that is the only thing he does.. whopp stuff. Logan brings much more to the table than just himself. Heck even most of the BA´s psychic powers are extremely offensive or just buffs to single models so those three powers a turn he might get off will probably just affect him.

 

Mephiston has one big advantage over Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes - he's not a Monstrous Creature. He'll get cover saves from anything that obscures him from a firing unit and his size will make him easier to hide from the heavy weapons that often topple those larger creatures.

 

In a battle against Logan (assuming he uses Quickening to get Fleet, Wings of Sanguinius to get into combat and Might of Heroes for an additional 1d3 attacks) Mephiston would strike at I10 for 7-9 attacks (4 base + 1 charge + 1 for 2CCW + 1d3). Logan will fail the Transfixing Gaze test more times than he makes it so Mephiston will likely get to reroll all attacks and wounds against him. So his best case is 9 attacks at I10 looking for 3+ to wound, 2+ to wound with rerolls for both. By odds this plays into 8 hits and 8 wounds. Logan makes 4 invul saves but takes 4 wounds and dies. You have to get to the point where Mephiston only does 4 wounds to Logan instead of 8 to reliably have him survive.

 

He's a bad, bad man.

[CarlSkaven]

the new flyer has teleport beacons , so dropping land raider is a cake walk XD

 

the new flyer can only carry one squad and one dread! thats it! nothing else

[Night Runner]

One of the problems fighting Blood Angels is that they have so much to choose from (much more than vanilla marines which is slightly unfair for C:SM players), especially from the elites and troop sections that it is going to be hard to tell what is coming. Maybe a good bet is not to take any dedicated transports and build full 10 man packs with Wolfguard for punch and let them come and deal with them on our doorstep - at least for standard games. Things will have to be thought out differently with the new Battle Missions book. It always gets exciting when fighting defacto powerful armies, it makes for a good fight even with poor players.

[Legacy]

the new flyer has teleport beacons , so dropping land raider is a cake walk XD

 

the new flyer can only carry one squad and one dread! thats it! nothing else

 

 

he means because of the teleport beacon the land raider can deepstrike within 12'' of the the flyer

[The Good Ship Naglfar]

In a battle against Logan (assuming he uses Quickening to get Fleet, Wings of Sanguinius to get into combat and Might of Heroes for an additional 1d3 attacks) Mephiston would strike at I10 for 7-9 attacks (4 base + 1 charge + 1 for 2CCW + 1d3). Logan will fail the Transfixing Gaze test more times than he makes it so Mephiston will likely get to reroll all attacks and wounds against him. So his best case is 9 attacks at I10 looking for 3+ to wound, 2+ to wound with rerolls for both. By odds this plays into 8 hits and 8 wounds. Logan makes 4 invul saves but takes 4 wounds and dies. You have to get to the point where Mephiston only does 4 wounds to Logan instead of 8 to reliably have him survive.

 

He's a bad, bad man.

 

He is indeed a bad, bad man. If he does fire off all of his psychic powers, he is going to be devastating on the charge. But we have some excellent tools of our own. If we bring a Rune Priest to the game, then Meph's powers will only work half the time. Less than half if you factor in the leadership test he has to take for each one. If we bring Njal, the success rate drops to 1/3. Which means he'll only get the Quickening/Wings/Might combo if he's really lucky. That drops up to 3 attacks off of Meph's total right from the start. Assuming the best case scenario (so we're consistent with what you wrote above) he's now inflicting 5 wounds instead of 8.

 

 

(Of course, he could start his turn outside the range of our Rune Weapons. But that works both ways. If he's out of range of us, then we're out of range of his Psychic Hood. That lets us turn a large chunk of the table into difficult terrain without worrying about interruption. And, since Might of Heroes is an assault phase power, he will probably be in range of our Rune Weapons by then. So he's back to a slightly less than 50% chance of success.)

 

Don't forget too that only the first 12" of his movement is "jumpable." After that he walks on the ground, as Russ intended. So if he is more than 12" away, we have enough space to set up reliable obstacles and rob Meph of the charge (or to force him to charge a throwaway unit). That's one less attack for Meph. Now he's only inflicting four wounds.

 

Finally, while Meph has to fight alone (at least that's the current rumor), Logan gets to bring friends. We may be getting into beardy territory here, but if Logan starts his turn in the middle of his unit, he might not be able to make base contact with Meph on the first turn. I think that takes away Meph's rerolls and distributes the remaining wounds throughout the entire unit. then Logan and his companions strike back with a full set of re-rolls of their own.

 

This all works beautifully in my head. But I have no idea how well it'll work in real life. But either way, it gives me a lot of hope.

[Stormshrug]

I'd been wondering about the Rune Priest as an answer myself. After all, without Eternal Warrior, he doesn't like Force Weapon hits, and as a Psyker he's not too hot on the Psychic Hood part of the Rune Weapon. Does Storm Caller cause you to count as being in cover, or does it simply give you a cover save without counting you as being in cover? If you count as being in cover, then you could set up a Rune Priest to eat a charge from Meph, striking simultaneously (he's got assault grenades, I assume?). Yeah, your Rune Priest is probably going to die, but you've got a fair shot of bringing him down with you (three attacks, hit on threes with a WTN, rerolling with Saga of the Beastslayer if you want for relatively minimal extra points, wound on fives for the kill on a successful psychic test).

 

Mathhammer-wise, you're looking at, what, 66% + 16%*~ for the rerolls chance to hit x 33% to wound x 83% success rate on the psychic test, so that gives you around a 22% chance to kill him on each attack, of which you're making three? Around 18% without Beastslayer (wow, that's a smaller difference than I expected)?

 

Admittedly, there are other factors. You need to successfully CAST Storm Caller, just for starters, and I assume Meph himself is packing a Psychic Hood.

 

In before "lol mathhammer" or "lol you suck at math" (which is true, and I probably did screw up somewhere in here. If I did, it's *here, I suspect.).

 

Honestly, though, I'm thinking just pure volume of fire on Meph is the optimal strategy. He's tough, but with no Invul save and ablative wounds from friendly squads, he's not immortal.

 

-Stormshrug

[Grey Mage]

Well if the BA Codex is out at stores for reveiw/preveiw, why on earth isnt it on the GW website for advanced order :S.

It will be today (well, it is supposed to be up today)

And now we play the waiting game....

 

And no, sadly we dont count as in cover with stormcaller... just get a cover save.

[MagneticFreak]

Yeah, mephiston should be seen as a uber hive tyrant. He is killable, but with the correct tactic.

 

From my side, the main question is more: why on earth does a marine army needs a monster like mephiston and/or a fast skimmer transport? Oh yeah and all HQ choices with I6?

 

Chaos space marines have deamon princes: weak trade off, as they have no ATSKNF, drop pods, and all the awesome goodies of C:SM. Eldar have fast skimmers and initiave, to cope with weak armor and toughness. Orks had furious charge to cope with marine players....Now where is the logic in all this?

[Night Runner]

Yeah, mephiston should be seen as a uber hive tyrant. He is killable, but with the correct tactic.

 

From my side, the main question is more: why on earth does a marine army needs a monster like mephiston and/or a fast skimmer transport? Oh yeah and all HQ choices with I6?

 

Chaos space marines have deamon princes: weak trade off, as they have no ATSKNF, drop pods, and all the awesome goodies of C:SM. Eldar have fast skimmers and initiave, to cope with weak armor and toughness. Orks had furious charge to cope with marine players....Now where is the logic in all this?

I agree with you on Mephiston. He is one of my favourite characters in the 40K universe. I read the Swallow books just because he was in them. Unfortunately, he has been blown out of proportion, instead of kept down to earth w.r.t. game design. I not talking about whether he can be killed or not, but the fact that he is given Primarch level stats. Apologists who refer to fluff to explain his stats are just fooling themselves really because fluff is what GW makes of it. Fluff is just not a valid explanation or justification to give a chapter a MC/deamon level character. The way they portrayed his fluff w.r.t. his stats is just silly. Besides the fact that it diminishes the other SM Chapters w.r.t. perception. I would have preferred they brought back the Primarch Sanguinius, at least it would of given the other SM Chapters some hope of one day seeing their own Primarch in their codex. I want Mephiston to be an exceptionally powerful marine - gifted and blessed - but within good game design and common sense. ST & T 5 and W 4 would have been more than enough to get this across without distorting his perception into something more Primarch than man. It's a pity GW doesn't learn when it comes to these things.

[Stormshrug]

And no, sadly we dont count as in cover with stormcaller... just get a cover save.

 

Pity, that was the best reason for taking a Rune Priest back in the day.

 

I suppose its defensive utility is a lot better now, what with being a true AoE instead of targeting a single unit. Still, I liked first-strike shenanigans.

 

-Stormshrug

[DV8]

I've been reading (furiously, I might add) as much as I can on the new Blood Angels book and unfortunately I am not impressed by what I've seen, in more ways than simply "this book is ridiculously over-powered".

 

Now before I begin this post, I want to state several things:

 

1. I do not believe in "cheesy" or "beardy" armies. If it's in the codex, and it can be taken legally, I have absolutely NO problem facing it whatsoever. Does it mean I play these kind of powerful armies? No, because I like balance. I like utility and multi-purpose armies. And I find these power builds are a crutch that masks the tactical/strategic insecurities of the players.

 

2. I do not see the Blood Angels book as overpowered, on the simple basis that they are limited by the Force Organization chart, and by points. Much like we are with the Space Wolves, they have a LOT of fun and definitely strong options, but they seem to all be competing for the preciously limited HQ/Elites/Fast slots. In combination with the points they pay, I think the Blood Angel players will have a tough time picking and choosing what they will or won't include in their armies.

 

3. What I state now is in no way an attack on anybody, nor something to be taken negatively. It is my objective opinion/perspective, and simply an analysis of trend and of mentality.

 

Now my opinion:

 

The Blood Angels book is one-dimensional. It is essentially a book of shiny new toys designed to lure people in so they'll build the army. But when you really, really think about all the new toys they get, all the new characters and changes to the vehicles (fast rhinos/razors? deep striking land raiders? tantalus flyer? dreadnoughts with the double S6 rending flamers?), are all designed and geared for one purpose:

 

To get the Blood Angels there fast.

 

What I have thoroughly enjoyed about all the recent codices to date (particularily with 5th edition) is choice. Not simply in available units, but available strategies. Ways to play. Variety in style and dimensionality, giving a deeper enjoyment of a book that, as the years go, you can adjust your play style to suit your whims without any real struggle. And not only that, but a multi-plex of options to suit those needs! Truly the mentality was all about "how do I want to play my army, and what units can I take that will enable me to do so?"

 

But then we have the Blood Angels book that, to me, has one and only one mentality: "I want to get there fast. Now. What units do I take to get me there?" Pushing past uber-Mephiston (who really isn't all that bad if you are even half-decent at this game), power-house Seth and the mystery Angel; moving beyond the plethora of Fast Vehicles and army buffing Sanguinary Priests, you have to wonder, truly.

 

"How many ways can I play this book, how many times can I play this army, before I get bored?"

 

Is it sad that with the limited dimensionality that I see in the book, that I don't have to use all my fingers to reach my conclusion?

 

And then you have the people who cry OP and cheese, and decry Matt Ward for writing a broken codex. Please. The Blood Angels book trades army substance for toys. Quality for quantity. But it's quality in one dimension: get up close sand into combat fast.

 

Why I love balanced armies, capable of a variety of different styles and options (in game) is because it allows you to deal with virtually any situation on the fly. Mix an equal balance of shooting, psychic ability, and combat, and you will find that you have all the tools on hand to accomplish the task required. Not necessarily by a land slide. Will some games be close? Absolutely. Will it be an uphill battle? Yes. But the fact is that you can emerge triumphant. Come up against someone who shoots better than you? Get up close and fight him in melee where he is weak. Does someone fight better than you? Stay back, lure him into your guns. This is at the core of what makes a Codex good, and what will keep true players using it for years (consider the 3rd edition Space Wolves codex, that STILL had a solid player base after a decade and being two editions behind! And I argue that the new Space Wolves codex will last just as long).

 

But I see the Blood Angels book and all I can say is that it will have it's fair share of wins and losses. Most of its wins will be combat based. Most of it's losses will be a war of fire against armies that simply shoot better than the Blood Angels do. But then I ask you, what will happen when (and it eventually will), a new Codex comes out that does close combat better than the Blood Angels? At that point, what can you do to adapt?

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

DV8

[Hfran Morkai]

Deny the charge...shoot them to pieces and do everything you can to deny the charge to units that will cause pain, so furious charge and anything with multiple power weapons. Usual procedure.

 

Deepstriking Land Raiders are risky and also melta bait, taking a multi-melta or two will slag them really nice, spilling the squad inside out, hopefully pinning and then unleash bolters into them.

 

The lander will fall to enough missiles and lascannon shots, melta weapons will still kill it but obviously we lack the special rules.

 

What I'm scared about is the rumour of scouting rhino chassis' (unsure which ones) but it would mean a tactical squad could quite happily be within rapid fire range turn one, unless we go first, but they'll still be closer.

 

I think this is going to be a lot of fun to play against.

[Night Runner]

Very good thoughts there DV8, but I don't agree completely with you.

 

It's true that the BA are geared toward CC and that they they are limited by the Force Organization chart with respects to what units they can field - especially w.r.t. cc choices within the elite and troop choices.

 

But they do have a certain flexibility within the large selection. For example they still can field tacticals, scouts and devastators that are staple units for all SM armies. They still get TDA and vehicle selections which allows them to deal with different armies in a similar manner as C:SM. True they do have point restrictions on certain troops that cost more and they don't have the tactical flexibility they the C:SM special characters offer, but then again neither does our Codex.

 

Overall I like the BA codex, except for my reservations of Mephiston and the fact that all the characters of the codex are BA except for Seth. I would have preferred if they'd spread out some of the SC to the other successor chapters.

[Dhx711]

What I'm scared about is the rumour of scouting rhino chassis' (unsure which ones) but it would mean a tactical squad could quite happily be within rapid fire range turn one, unless we go first, but they'll still be closer.

 

As far as I'm aware, it's only the Baal Pred that is FA with the scout USR.

[Hfran Morkai]

What I'm scared about is the rumour of scouting rhino chassis' (unsure which ones) but it would mean a tactical squad could quite happily be within rapid fire range turn one, unless we go first, but they'll still be closer.

 

As far as I'm aware, it's only the Baal Pred that is FA with the scout USR.

 

I'm not sure if that's better or worse, I mean a flamestorm cannon in the face turn one is nasty.

 

Also I'm curious as to how you scout with one of those things anyway, not like it's obvious, a big, red tank B)