A Thousand Sons

[Vassakov]

WARNING: General Heresy Spoilers are not enclosed in spoiler tags, on specific things revealed by the book. Most of you will know the rough outline of events anyway, but if you don't want to know about some of this stop now!

 

So, nearly finished it. As I type this, Magnus has shattered the Webway gate on Terra and the Wolves are poised ready to deliver the deathblow. Much debate has raged about how much they bought upon themselves... turns out quite a bit. The book opens with a campaign on what I believe to be an Eldar Maiden world, as the Thousand Son's receive summons from Russ himself... SPOILERS FOLLOW:

 

 

There are no Wolves on Fenris: An interesting suggestion is that the Canis Helix IS NOT a result of the Space Wolves - instead, it predates them. It is suggested that it is a result of mankinds "challenges" to survive on Fenris, and that the Fenrisian Wolves are in no way natural.

 

Russ is a psyker, or at least psychic. In one scene, his anger seems to be enough to kill several Thousand Sons. Interesting a Rune Priest named Wyrdmake is crucial to the Thousand Sons censure at Nikea, despite initially seeming to be friendly towards Ahriman. Russ is not shown to be present, though Mortarian decries Magnus on two occassions.

 

Russ and Magnus have a strained relationship, and nearly come to blows on more than one occasion prior to Prospero. Only Lorgar is able to prevent them at one point.

 

The Wolves are physically resistant, even at this stage. Many are "unreadable" (one of the Thousand Son's tricks is aura reading, looking at humours etc) and Russ himself is so potent Ahriman has to shut himself off from it.

 

The Thousand Sons are and were utterly corrupt. Magnus knew of Chaos, and indeed struck a bargain with what I assume to be Tzeentch on more than one occasion. The most significant is the revalation that much as the Wolves suffer the Wulfen, the unbridled psychic potential caused mass and spontaneous mutations, and when one of these occurs in front of Russ he kills it, then petitions the Emperor. The result: Nikea.

 

Final point - the Wolves are described as being the most dangerous of the Legions. Utterly implacable, with all the terrible fury of the World Eaters, the single mindedness of the Word Bearers, the loyalty of the wolves and, perhaps most significantly, the Canis Helix. Quite what will be developed by Abnett is up for grabs - but I would put money on the Wolves being the Emperors nuclear option versus another Legion.

 

 

 

 

What say you, brothers?

[Gree]

So, nearly finished it. As I type this, Magnus has shattered the Webway gate on Terra and the Wolves are poised ready to deliver the deathblow. Much debate has raged about how much they bought upon themselves... turns out quite a bit. The book opens with a campaign on what I believe to be an Eldar Maiden world, as the Thousand Son's receive summons from Russ himself... SPOILERS FOLLOW:

 

It's not a campaigh, Agoru entered into the Imperium peacefully.

 

 

The Wolves are physically resistant, even at this stage. Many are "unreadable" (one of the Thousand Son's tricks is aura reading, looking at humours etc) and Russ himself is so potent Ahriman has to shut himself off from it.

 

 

 

Not really, the Raptora held the Wolves back with their kine shields just fine and Hathor Maat was able to affect the Wolves's nervous systems just fine. In fact he and the Pavoni were even told not to kil the Wolves. And the thousand Sons can affecdt the Wolves just fine in the final battle, only Auramagma has trouble with Russ.

 

 

 

The Thousand Sons are and were utterly corrupt. Magnus knew of Chaos, and indeed struck a bargain with what I assume to be Tzeentch on more than one occasion. The most significant is the revalation that much as the Wolves suffer the Wulfen, the unbridled psychic potential caused mass and spontaneous mutations, and when one of these occurs in front of Russ he kills it, then petitions the Emperor. The result: Nikea.

 

 

 

I would not say ''utterly corrupt'' Ahriman and the legion had no idea what Magnus had did until the very end of the book. Magnus himself never worshiped Chaos at all in the book. Ahriman himself was shocked and horrifed what Magnus had done. In fact it's even implied that the Emperor himself had deals with the Chaos Gods.

 

Utterly corrupt is the Word Bearers who summon daemons and spout praises to the Dakr Gods. The Thousand Sons as a legion were not even aware Chaos existed untilt he very end of the book.

 

[Wolf Lord Hallbjorn]

True, they did hold them back quite well....at first. The rest of that paragraph tells about how through sheer mass and stubborn determination, the Wolves pushed the kine shields slowly backward, which is why Haathor had to affect their nervous systems.

[Gree]

True, they did hold them back quite well....at first. The rest of that paragraph tells about how through sheer mass and stubborn determination, the Wolves pushed the kine shields slowly backward, which is why Haathor had to affect their nervous systems.

 

All while holding back not to kill them, remember. The Thousand Sons had no killing intent. Fighting to restrain and fighting to kill are two very different things. Only the Fenrisian wolves died and that seemed to be pure accident on the Sons part. Ahriman actualy had to ask Hathor Maat not to kill them. Skaarson and his warriors were effectively rendered helpless for a while.

 

And when killing intent was finaly unleashed at Prospero at the end the Thousand Sons had no trouble killing Wolves.

 

Russ was immune, yes, but tha'ts to be expected from a primarch.

[Simo429]

i thought the 1000 sons were vastly overpowered in the book and killed wolves with an ease which was ridiculous

 

cant wait to prospero burns

[Gree]

i thought the 1000 sons were vastly overpowered in the book and killed wolves with an ease which was ridiculous

 

Appaearantly you did not read the part at the end of the book were it stated the tutelaries were feeding power to the sons in order to force them into the Flesh change. It was fairly obvious. In fact, I would expect them to be so powerful, as studying sorcery should give you greater powers than the average Astartes Librarian, a fact that we don't see often. It's rare when the Thousand Sons really are depicted as masters of the warp and not one-diemensional cackling villians with spikes.

 

Regardless the whole point of the book was that it was form the Thousand Sons viewpoint. Abnett and McNill themselves stated they have made their books delibierately biased as two sides of the same coin.

[Taeken]

Question about the tuteleries. Am I correct that they were daemons all along? Just going along with the 1k sons for a few hundred years to lead them slowly down the wrong track.

[Gree]

Question about the tuteleries. Am I correct that they were daemons all along? Just going along with the 1k sons for a few hundred years to lead them slowly down the wrong track.

 

It appears so yes. The thousand Sons appearantly thought them to be semi-sentient warp enentities. They did appear to pattern themselves after their Masters in personality.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Regardless the whole point of the book was that it was form the Thousand Sons viewpoint. Abnett and McNill themselves stated they have made their books delibierately biased as two sides of the same coin.

 

Absolutely and I enjoyed that aspect. Mindful that I have had a pre-Heresy TS force in progress for several months, I do feel that McNill over-egged the maggick pudding somewhat. I'd seen sergeants and above as being the focus for maggick - maybe the odd squad member whose powers would replicate weapons such as flamers or missile launchers, but not the über marines he came up with.

 

I enjoyed the story for what it was - 30K candy - but lacking in subtlety or real affinity for either the TS or SWs.

[Vassakov]

Hmmmm... I'm not sure I'm 100% convinced by your analysis.

 

When I said the Legion was "utterly corrupt," I was more referring to the flesh curse and the physic mutations that manifested as a direct result of the Emperors work on their gene seed, not necessarily a spiritual corruption. I will acknowledge that from the writing of the book, the Wolves were being completely hypocritical (well, Wrydmake at least) however the Legion was clearly in trouble from the word "go." The use of tuteleries, for example - whilst the actions were intended with all good faith, they could only have one outcome. The difference between "utterly corrupt" as regards the Word Bearers and Thousand Son's is that the Word Bearers were corrupt by their actions, the Thousand Son's tragedy is they were damned by their genes, and the choices they and their Primarch made.

 

Of course, if we take the assumption that Magnus' "role" was to act as the Emperors proxy in holding open the webway then the creation of a psychic Legion was pretty much inevitable... which suggests that an anti pskyer was created. The Wolves. If we assume (and there is a lot of justification for this, particular during the battle of Prospero) that the tuteleries are Daemons, then they were ramping up the Thousand Sons own - not insignificant - psychic potential to something that is truly monstrous. The Thousand Son's were clearly more powerful during the last few chapters than the rest of the book, hence it's not suprising that the Wolves were being overwhelmed. However, Ahriman specifically describes the Wolves as being "anathama to it [the atheric energy/psychic powers]" (pg 106, if you're interested) In addition, when Skarresson and his brothers are stopped, the Kine Shields sufficient to stop a Titan Lance aren't enough and instead they opt for something direct, and "the Pavoni unleashed the full force of their bio manipulation."

 

So basically, to stop the Wolves, the Thousand Sons had to cut loose. The Wolves aren't untouchables, far from it. But their background and rules have consistantly shown them to have a degree of psychic resistance - previously this has been attributed to shamanistic rituals, a hangover of Fenrisian customs. Now though... well, it seems that the Canis Helix has something to do with it. Especially given the response of Ahrimans tutelery to a Fenrisian Wolf, when it flees and Magnus and Ahriman discuss what the Canis Helix actually is.

 

And fine, the humans on Agoru entered peacefully. Whatever it was the Thousand Son's found when digging was a different story entirely.

[Hfran Morkai]

I enjoyed reading the book, it kept me reading which was brilliant.

 

Now I'm itching for the tale from the Wolf perspective.

 

It pretty much went down how we knew it would. The Thousand Sons were still practicing their arts after the Emperor told them so, the barriers put up even showed that bold as daylight to the Space Wolves. I imagine that would have infuriated them more, the fact their bombs hadn't affected Prospero like they were meant to.

 

Then of course Magnus was messing around with sorcery anyway, he messed up big time with the Imperial Palace after the Emperor had expressly forbidden the use of psychic powers and therefore the legion had to be punished. If one were to steal bread for a starving child and got caught you would expect to be sentenced, regardless of the intentions, still a crime, still punishable.

 

That was the true purpose of the Space Wolves, of any Legion. To unleash justice upon those that do not obey the Emperor. Magnus fell into a trap because he was arrogant, a grave mistake.

 

I can't remember if the books mention it but I wonder if the Rune Priests stopped their practices, then again they didn't recognize them for what they were, believing them to be the storm manifest, as of old Fenrisian tales.

 

So little sympathy from me, perhaps its because I chose my allegiance six years ago, perhaps not.

 

For the Legion!

[Gree]

In addition, when Skarresson and his brothers are stopped, the Kine Shields sufficient to stop a Titan Lance aren't enough and instead they opt for something direct, and "the Pavoni unleashed the full force of their bio manipulation."

 

I thought the kine shield used to stop the Titan Lance was being enhanced by the cavern. Ahriman says something that Haathor Maat and Phosis T'kar are being enhanced by the cave's powers and feels something strange in it.

 

So basically, to stop the Wolves, the Thousand Sons had to cut loose. The Wolves aren't untouchables, far from it. But their background and rules have consistantly shown them to have a degree of psychic resistance - previously this has been attributed to shamanistic rituals, a hangover of Fenrisian customs. Now though... well, it seems that the Canis Helix has something to do with it. Especially given the response of Ahrimans tutelery to a Fenrisian Wolf, when it flees and Magnus and Ahriman discuss what the Canis Helix actually is.

 

Yet the Ferisian wolves are first to die to the aetheric fired when Skaarson's Astartes charge the 2nd Fellowship, while the Space Wolves themselves have their armor blackened.

 

Then of course Magnus was messing around with sorcery anyway, he messed up big time with the Imperial Palace after the Emperor had expressly forbidden the use of psychic powers and therefore the legion had to be punished. If one were to steal bread for a starving child and got caught you would expect to be sentenced, regardless of the intentions, still a crime, still punishable.

 

But the thing is, the book implies that there is no difference betwen sorcery and psychic powers. Like the ''Visions'' Artbooks, the new fluff has the Emperor lumping in all psychic powers as sorcery and ordering all Librarians from all Legions (Not just the thousand sons) to stop using their powers.

 

Of course this looks ridiculous when 1. The Wolves still are using Rune Priests (The Emperor is not an idiot, he must clearly see that the Priests are psykers, this is remarked repeatedly in the book by Ahriman) and the fact that 2. The Chapters use Librarians just fine after the Heresy.

 

In the book it's mentioned the whole idea of the Librarians was Magnus's idea in the first place. Coupled with the earleir thing about no difference between sorcery and psychic powers, Magnus looks vindicated by the very existance of Librarian spost-heresy.

 

That was the true purpose of the Space Wolves, of any Legion. To unleash justice upon those that do not obey the Emperor. Magnus fell into a trap because he was arrogant, a grave mistake.

 

I don't see how he fell into a trap when he greatly helped the Wolves. He ordered away the TS fleet, murdered one of the senior officers of his legion and prevented the Corvidae from seeing the SW fleet. (And if the daemon is to be beleived he could have destroyed the entire Space Wolves legion before the battle even begun) and it's implied at one point that Magnus would have sabotauged the Raptora shields if he could have gotten away unoticed. As well as the fact that he refused to fight for most of the battle until it was too late.

 

This is one of the few facts I don't like in the book. In the old fluff the Space Wolves were badasses who got the drop on the Thousand Sons and beat them one-on-one. In the Thousand Sons, the Wolves are handed several major advantages right off the bat by Magnus himself as well as having the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence as backup. (The Thousand Sons, meanwhile had the Prosperite Spireguard hardly a fair matchup. they did have a titan, which was pretty powerful, but the tutelaries ended up backstabbing them)

 

The Space Wolves don't look like badasses in this novel, instead with all these advantages and allies they look more like a bunch of hypocritical bullies who got lucky. (And even then, they took heavy casulties) It's really ironic that Magnus the Red was probably the Wolves greatest ally in the Battle of Prospero. I prefer the older fluff were the Wolves were badasses who succeded.

 

Now in the new fluff you could have any legion get the advantages the Wolves had and they still would have won. It was pretty obvious the Thousand Sons were shafted even before the battle began by their own Primarch.

[Wildfire]

Black Library is fanfic, not cannon. I don't really think any of the stuff these authors write adds much to the backround. I realize that GW is milking 40k for all it's worth, but I really wish they wouldn't do this. If they've got to have novels, use chapters that aren't in existing fluff, and don't change the universe!

[Gree]

Black Library is fanfic, not cannon. I don't really think any of the stuff these authors write adds much to the backround. I realize that GW is milking 40k for all it's worth, but I really wish they wouldn't do this. If they've got to have novels, use chapters that aren't in existing fluff, and don't change the universe!

 

Actually no.

 

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

 

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

 

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

 

In addition, Alan Merret is the head of GW's IP department, he wrote the artbooks and he is the editor for the Horus Heresy series and codices. In effect he directs the flow of fluff. Gw really appears to be going into a new direction with the fluff. Prospero Burns will probably follow the same scenerio (abiet from the Wolves POV) sinc eMcNeill and abnett wokred together on this project.

[Octavulg]

"Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

 

Codices and the rulebook actually do sometimes contain things that are actual objective truth (the recent-events timeline in the BBB is a good example). The Black Library never can, because it's never presented from outside the universe looking in, which other things can be.

 

EDIT:

 

If nothing else, large chunks of it fail the "if it's stupid, it never really happened" test which is best applied to a lot of 40K fluff. :P

 

EDIT 2:

 

the Wolves being the Emperors nuclear option versus another Legion.

 

And that is, if it is developed any further, possibly the weakest concept I've seen in 40K so far. Firstly, as someone else pointed out the last time this came up, plenty of other legions have many of the traits Abnett ascribes to the Wolves. Second, it's blatant "OMG THIS LEGION IS SO AWESSOME THEY COULD KIL UR LEGION!" And that's just painful.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I like the fact that they where loyal to the very end. The Thousand Sons have always been a tragic story.

[Hfran Morkai]

I meant Magnus fell into a trap of Tzeentch, due to making a bargain with it to save the Legion.

 

The bargain which brought doom upon the Thousand Sons.

 

I don't recall mention of the Rune Priest's using their powers after the ban, Wyrdmake even attempts to use his axe if I recall instead of trying to batter Ahriman with psychic attacks.

 

Post-Heresy it was decided (by who I don't know but it seems logical) that psychic powers were needed to save the Imperium from the many enemies they faced.

[Gree]

I don't recall mention of the Rune Priest's using their powers after the ban, Wyrdmake even attempts to use his axe if I recall instead of trying to batter Ahriman with psychic attacks.

 

They fought in the astral plane dude.

 

"Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

 

Codices and the rulebook actually do sometimes contain things that are actual objective truth (the recent-events timeline in the BBB is a good example). The Black Library never can, because it's never presented from outside the universe looking in, which other things can be.

 

The books are in third person, I don't see how it is not.

[Hfran Morkai]

Astral plane? Unfamiliar with that, if you mean where Ahriman ripped his "soul" from his body then I'd say it was fair game, it was the only way he had a hope of beating one so well learned in the arcane arts.

 

I'm hoping the Space Wolves book will clear up whether Rune Priests desisted using their powers, perhaps they were even given leave, considering A thousand Sons isn't the first instance of Space Wolves having Rune Priests during the Heresy, they appeared in the BoLS 30K rules, a notable exception so I'm wondering if there's more fluff justifying that.

[Octavulg]

The books are in third person, I don't see how it is not.

 

But still from an in-universe perspective - our information is limited to the perceptions of the characters etc. For all we know these are novelizations produced in M36 and immediately suppressed by the Inquisition for both inaccuracy and heresy.

[Gree]

The books are in third person, I don't see how it is not.

 

But still from an in-universe perspective - our information is limited to the perceptions of the characters etc. For all we know these are novelizations produced in M36 and immediately suppressed by the Inquisition for both inaccuracy and heresy.

 

I don't see how, the books are produced by Games Workshop' subsidary company. I see the novels as if from an invisible observer looking at the events. For exmple when reading Nightbringer I never got the impression it would have been written by an Imperial scribe. (Morehowever most of these events are etheir about modern events that are reflected in the codices, In fact the 4th edition Guard codex has an except of Gaunt's Ghosts in it, the 3rd edition Space Wolf book had an except from Space Wolf) I can understand when the book is like the Cain series, were it is stated to be deliberately biased, but a book like the Horus Heresy series?

 

Astral plane? Unfamiliar with that, if you mean where Ahriman ripped his "soul" from his body then I'd say it was fair game, it was the only way he had a hope of beating one so well learned in the arcane arts.

 

While dabbling in those same arts he essentialy proved that he was the same as Ahriman, making the whole Nikea issue pointless.

[Octavulg]

Most definitely. The characters in the Horus Heresy series are often moronic and large portions of what happens is inconsistent with both other portrayals, other novels and common sense. Hell, look at the Nikaea thing alone.

 

The Black Library screws things up far more than it clarifies them.

[Gree]

Most definitely. The characters in the Horus Heresy series are often moronic and large portions of what happens is inconsistent with both other portrayals, other novels and common sense. Hell, look at the Nikaea thing alone.

 

The Black Library screws things up far more than it clarifies them.

 

Again, I don't see how.

 

In fact by your logic the artbooks are canon. They take place in a clear third person observation like the codices (Same general format). Except the novels draw heavily from the Visions artbooks and even the current Thousand sons plot is taken from Visions of War. The Nikea thing appeared four years before a Thousand sons was even written.

 

McNeill did not invent the whole ''All librarians must be banned'' that was around since Visions of War. Most of the Horus Heresy characters first appeared in the artbooks and Alan Merret was heavily involved with both projects.

[Octavulg]

The artbooks would be canon, IMO. However, they would be superseded by the codices, rulebooks, etc, which receive mass production and distribution.

[Gree]

The artbooks would be canon, IMO. However, they would be superseded by the codices, rulebooks, etc, which receive mass production and distribution.

 

I see then, a matter of opinion. What if some codices (Chaos codex) match up to the artbooks while the other remain ambiguous?