minigun762 Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 It was bound to show up at some point so I thought I'd get the ball rolling. Without turning this into too much of a "Chaos codex is 3 flavors of poop" topic, lets put our thinking caps on and see what we can come up with. First off, I can't help but think that (one of) the new power builds is going to revolve around 3 Baals and 3 Vindicators. 6x AV13 platforms that are all fast and carry a dangerous short range wepaon mean that anti-tank is even more important now. Meltas on troops will still be standard but we will need to be investing more and more into long range firepower because stopping a Baal or Vindicator once its had 3+ turns to shoot isn't nearly as helpful as stopping it before it gets within range. It also means that Termicide won't yield as good of returns as before, since blowing up a 130ish point tank when there are 5 others isn't a nice as killing a 250 point Land Raider when there is only 2 on the board. That being said, its still a viable option but I think you might see it being replaced by the outflanking Meltagun Chosen in a Rhino. The reason is simply that the Chosen can go after more than 1 tank, whereas the Terminators are really only a one shot weapon for AT purposes. How/where you're going to get the points to field Chosen like this is a tough question. The other noteworthy item I'm going to mention is that once again, we see fairly solid assault units being used as troops. Assault Marines might not be glamorous but they will give our CSMs an even fight and with the flexibility of going between Jump Packs or transports (including LR it sounds like), they have some extra build options. Unless you are using Berzerkers, I would say we've definitely lost our edge with assault troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan The Deamon Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 Wooden Stakes... Sorry i couldn't resist. They are without a doubt faster than us. They are more shooty within' 12"-24", and they will out combat us. I have no idea what this could spell for chaos. The only thing i can think is to use more plague marines, feel no pain and T5 may allow us to die like normal marines. As for now i think setting up a little different, keeping an extra 6" away, and a little more of a defensive playstyle are in order. They will be able to counter attack a lot quicker than us. Maybe reserves heavy? What's that team who's set up to loose against the Harlem globetrotters? I feel like we're playing the "bad guy" codex and we only exist to give all the new Space marine players some entertainment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2310731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 i'm not so sure we'll be seeing 3x baal/vindi lists bcoming a normal build, your talking about roughly 900 points (guessing as i haven't got my hand on the codex yet) add in the cost of mephiston which i believe every list will have due to his "primarch" like stats doesn't really leave enough points to get alot of bodies on the board. what i think you will see is DC in transports, jump pack squads with priests attached backed up by the emperor (oops i mean mephiston). taking away the fragility of small assault squads by giving them FC and FnP i think will be our biggest headache would you agree? either we'll all need to get our heads together to solve this one or give up until we get a new dex in about 2-3 years :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2311147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 i'm not so sure we'll be seeing 3x baal/vindi lists bcoming a normal build, your talking about roughly 900 points (guessing as i haven't got my hand on the codex yet) add in the cost of mephiston which i believe every list will have due to his "primarch" like stats doesn't really leave enough points to get alot of bodies on the board. From my understanding the Baals/Vindis will average about 130 points each, so thats 780 with no upgrades (not that you need many). Assault Marines are priced the same as the SM Codex which means you can expect 10 guys to come out around 200-230 points depending on upgrades. Factor in the "free" Rhino/Razorback if you don't go with Jump Packs and you're looking at 450 for minimum troops. This means you still have enough points for Captain SuperPants with some wiggle room @ 1500. You save even more if you go with basic Tac squads for Troops. Its a little risky to be sure but would play alot like IG Chimera/Skimmer spamming and we know that works well. what i think you will see is DC in transports, jump pack squads with priests attached backed up by the emperor (oops i mean mephiston). taking away the fragility of small assault squads by giving them FC and FnP i think will be our biggest headache would you agree? I have heard that the Priests will be very common and very potent so I could easily see some jumper heavy list being viable. Depending on if Assault Marines have access to Meltaguns, they might have some issues getting enough Meltaguns into an army but thats why I see the Baal/Vindi working well as they both cover the anti-AV14 role fairly well while being great multi-taskers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2311182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 One thing to keep in mind, Mephiston may have god-like stats, he is however not an IC (if my memory from reading the store copy serves). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2311194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 again i'm not 100% sure and don't want to trail through the 30 odd page of posts again( and the fact i'm getting old and my memory isn't what it used to be :P ) but i think they get access to melta pistols at the cost of plasma and melta at normal cost, adding in FC and FnP with the higher mobility of jump packs and scoring could be downright silly. priests take up a single slot elite for 1-3 with upgrades then split down and attached to squads so i can see atleast 3 full assault squads in each list. DC i can see in the new lander( can carry 2 squads upto 12 models) with a SC and dread to back them up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2311200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelias Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 One thing to keep in mind,Mephiston may have god-like stats, he is however not an IC (if my memory from reading the store copy serves). as i said above as the new lander can carry 2 units i expect to see him hide in there with a 10 strong DC to hide behind when he's dropped off while he lances stuff (goes through friendly models). having 5 wounds to chew through balances out the loss of him hiding in squads i would think :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2311204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodacious2182 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I am going to try a couple of Slaneesh lords with blissgiver. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2311462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I think its a little bit too early for this thread tbh. We cant compare ourselves directly with them, as they dont only fight Chaos but every other 40k army too. What might work against us, might fail against others: so those builds are not going to be played on tourneys. 6x fast AV 13 shootings platforms looks like that will have a lot of potential indeed. But we already live in a 40k era of heavy Mechanized armies. In other words: If you can handle other Mechanized armies now, wouldnt you be able to handle these too? They still have a side armour of 11, while Wave serpents are a lot harder to take down and IG has more vehicles so its doest have to be much more difficult. The Raven gunships seem strong to me too. The scout rule + assault vehicle seems too strong, but the 4x S8 Ap 1 missiles also have a lot of potential. (happily 1 excludes the other) Time will tell. I'm not too worried atm. All their vehicles are more expensive due to being fast. (~145 for the vindie, ~50 for the rhinos, ~200 for the Gunship). Their troops arent that good. (jumpacks means not mechanized, their tacticals kinda suck) and their HQ's arent that good actually. (either non-IC or expensive/sucky weapons) If all else fails: either we'll all need to get our heads together to solve this one or give up until we get a new dex in about 2-3 years Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2311716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 1. Shoot from long range. 2. Shoot from close range. 3. Chop. 4. ... 5. Eat cake! It's just another marine army and dies the same ways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2312323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 10, 2010 Author Share Posted March 10, 2010 6x fast AV 13 shootings platforms looks like that will have a lot of potential indeed. But we already live in a 40k era of heavy Mechanized armies. In other words: If you can handle other Mechanized armies now, wouldnt you be able to handle these too? Agreed. Its even more proof that vehicle spamming is the way to win in 5th Edition and to have a chance, you need to be able to beat a half dozen tanks in the first few turns. Of course the flip side is that with BA, we could just as easily see an army with no vehicles where everything is jump packing towards you. Lash and PC oblits can only do so much against large numbers of fast MEQs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2312384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Tezdal Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 When I have problems like this, I throw Berzerkers at it, Khorne cares not from which Red Angry Marine the blood flows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2312390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 3 Defilers and Rhinos with havok launchers carrying Noise Marines and CC Dreads. It doesn't matter what the army is, you have enough str 8 and template weapons to deal with it, for anything else there's str 10 CC goodness or high Int troops. Think that should solve at least some concerns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194313-the-inevitable-how-to-beat-new-ba-thread/#findComment-2313928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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