In need some some squad sergeant advice

[Donkusai]

Hello.

 

I am new to 40k and new to this forums.

 

I have decided to play warhammer 40k and have been collection and painting the army to get it ready for the tabletop. I have read over all the rules and understand the unit options, I just do not have enough real game experience to know what sounds good vs what is good.

 

I am using magnetism on some of the models like the devastators so that I can switch back and forth between weapons as I want and not lock myself down to any one model using any one weapon. I want my army to be "wysiwyg". I am running into some trouble with the squad sergeants though. I started off by magnetizing all the arms so that I had options but I have heard some people talk and it sounds like squad sergeants always get the same gear. An example is the tactical sergeant. It sounds like regardless of the options he is always best with a power fist and bolt pistol.

 

I was hoping you guys could give me some advice on squad sergeants. If they will always be fielded using the same options I can just build them as such with the models and not worry about having all the snap on parts. What gear do you always give your sergeants of different squads?

 

I will link some images to give an example of what I am talking about. I want to have the army painted and done before I actually take to the table.

 

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs019.snc3/12635_1271304304069_1273717077_791056_6324330_n.jpg

 

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs039.snc3/12635_1271304384071_1273717077_791058_1623433_n.jpg

 

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs019.snc3/12635_1271311064238_1273717077_791074_35538_n.jpg

 

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs039.snc3/12635_1271313744305_1273717077_791085_3445854_n.jpg

 

As you can see this would be a nightmare to do for every sergeant and all the gear they can have as options. I don't mind doing this for the HQ but if there is default gear I can always assume my squad sergeants will use I can just glue them together and save myself some serious headache.

[Koremu]

In all honesty it's probably not worth magnetising everything like this; just get separate models for combination you want to use, and then sub them in as Squad Sergeants, Vanguard, Sternguard or Command Squad Veterans as appropriate. All of my Tactical Squads have multiple Special and Heavy Weapon guys too.

[Multi Marine]

For tatical squad sergents, I think the best load out is Power Fist and boltgun. Since you can not gain the extra attack for off hand close combat weapon with a Power Fist, I see no reason for the bolt Pistol. If I have points to spare I may equipe the sergent with a combi flamer.

[Koremu]

You can fire on the Assault with a Bolt Pistol. Storm Bolter or an Assault Combi works if the dual role is that important to you.

[werewolf_nr]

Sargeants "traditionally" use a power fist and bolt pistol/bolter or a chainsword and bolt pistol.

 

I would magnetize for those two combos and you will have most senarios covered. The nice thing about magnetizing is that you can always make another arm if you feel you need a plasma pistol or combi-weapon.

[Kolath]

I will echo brother Koremu and say it probably isn't worth it to magnetize all the devastators. Though that is really awesome work, especially for someone new to 40k! You would probably better off buying the 5 man combat squad box and just making all devastator weapons (that's what i did) That way you can use all of them in different squads.

 

As for the sergeant, I agree, power fist and boltgun/bolt pistol are most common. I am somewhat partial to power swords as they strike at initiative, but it depends on the squad.

[Donkusai]

How do you normally equip your assault marine sergeants? Since I don't have enough game experience I cant decide if the power fist and shield combo outweighs the attacks of power weapon and bolt pistol?

[Brightguy]

Generally Fist and Bolt Pistol for Assault Sergeants. They can't take combi weapons or bolters, the plasma pistol is too expensive and the power weapon's low strength limits the squad's role.

 

As an aside to that, I am a huge fan of double flamers for Assault Squad special weapons.

[rat of vengence]

As above. A fast moving powerfist is a threat to many things. I tend not to use plasma pistols, fail a 'gets hot' armour save and your rather expensive sergeant is gone.

 

RoV

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

power fist/bolter

or

power weapon/plasma pistol

 

2 best loadouts, 2 most expensive as well

 

I tend not to use plasma pistols, fail a 'gets hot' armour save and your rather expensive sergeant is gone.

I've used a plasma pistol on one of my sergeants for years only lost him once due to gets hot. but that my friend is what we call luck

[Mystic Lemur]

It depends on how you want to use the squad. Generally, if I intend to combat squad (or run them as 5 man) I stick with a Power Weapon (and usually a Plasma Pistol) because a 5 man squad doesn't have the ablative wounds to guarantee the fist gets to swing. However, I have heard good things about using multiple 5 man squads in tandem, so YMMV.

 

I probably tend to overspend. I give my big squads fists because my big squads get the most attention. For instance, I give all my devastators a power fist because my opponent invariably tries to find a way to get them stuck in (and thus neutralize the heavies). The fist is an insurance policy.

 

 

Try to read the "Why fists" thread for a few good arguments (for and against fists) amid the ranting. =)

[Frosty the Pyro]

A fist will statisticly outperform a power weapon, and is able to inflict instant death on T4 and below enemies (the most frequent values). Also statisticly the reroll on a lightning claw is worth more than the extra attack from a power weapon+pistol. I also dont promont using a Storm sheild on a fist captain, as at that point you are adding 40 points of gear, and if you use a sheild then you will want to be alocating armor ignoring wounds, which in turn risk the fist. So its either take the storm sheild and whatever shooting weapon you want and use the sergent to soak up armor ignoring wounds and hopefully make some inv saves, or take the fist and alocate the armor ignoring wounds to less dangerous/expensive (and therefore expendable) marines.

[werewolf_nr]

A fist will statisticly outperform a power weapon, and is able to inflict instant death on T4 and below enemies (the most frequent values). Also statisticly the reroll on a lightning claw is worth more than the extra attack from a power weapon+pistol. I also dont promont using a Storm sheild on a fist captain, as at that point you are adding 40 points of gear, and if you use a sheild then you will want to be alocating armor ignoring wounds, which in turn risk the fist. So its either take the storm sheild and whatever shooting weapon you want and use the sergent to soak up armor ignoring wounds and hopefully make some inv saves, or take the fist and alocate the armor ignoring wounds to less dangerous/expensive (and therefore expendable) marines.

 

Not disagreeing entirely, but those statistics are partially based on who you are fighting. I doubt the power fist is much better against guardsmen than a sword. However, it does better against Nurgle's things.

 

I just made 2 tac squads, one w/ pf+sb and one w/ pp and pw. I'll watch how they do.

[Koremu]

How do you normally equip your assault marine sergeants? Since I don't have enough game experience I cant decide if the power fist and shield combo outweighs the attacks of power weapon and bolt pistol?

Don't bother with the shield. You have a load of Brother Marines nearby before you should ever even be taking a save on the expensive guy.

 

But yes, Power Fist. It's that whole "adds another category of stuff you can do something to" with a side order of "ha ha instant death!"

 

I've occasionally used Plasma Pistol, but it's not very cost effective. Works though, but you rarely get to fire it enough to justify the points. Good vs Mech or Eldar though.

 

 

Regarding Devastators, I usually go with a Power Sword as an attempt to cut down opponents before they strike. However, that's mostly theoretical, as I personally don't field Devs much if ever.

[Kinzel]

I've been thinking along the same kinda lines as to what to equip my sergeants with and so when I was bored I did a little basic mathhammering :huh:

 

If your sergeant (or any plasma gunner) fires his Plasma pistol it's works out as the equivalent of him taking an imperial guardsman's lasgun shot lol.

Both have a 5.6% chance of killing him ;)

To put into perspective a bolter hit has an 11.1% chance of killing a marine.

And that plasma pistol has a 55.6% chance of killing another marine.

 

So I do think a plasma pistol is great but is rather expensive and more than likely 1 shot only before you get into combat lol.

 

 

p.s. To show how bored I was I now have an excel spreadsheet of what happens when a marine fires any weapon in the C:SM and C:CSM armouries at another marine :P ..or terminator..or scout.. or plague marine.. or thousand son..

[Koremu]

The problem is that if that Plasma Pistol does kill the Sergeant, it's just taken a 68 point model out. Whereas the target is almost always going to be a sub-20 point basic trooper.

[Kinzel]

hehe True enough unless he takes the last wound off an IC or something ;p but ya I do agree it's a risk you don't really need to take.

For the most part I would far prefer to buy another marine for the points spent on the pistol but I just love the glowy effects possible with plasma weaponry ;)

[Frosty the Pyro]

A fist will statisticly outperform a power weapon, and is able to inflict instant death on T4 and below enemies (the most frequent values). Also statisticly the reroll on a lightning claw is worth more than the extra attack from a power weapon+pistol. I also dont promont using a Storm sheild on a fist captain, as at that point you are adding 40 points of gear, and if you use a sheild then you will want to be alocating armor ignoring wounds, which in turn risk the fist. So its either take the storm sheild and whatever shooting weapon you want and use the sergent to soak up armor ignoring wounds and hopefully make some inv saves, or take the fist and alocate the armor ignoring wounds to less dangerous/expensive (and therefore expendable) marines.

 

Not disagreeing entirely, but those statistics are partially based on who you are fighting. I doubt the power fist is much better against guardsmen than a sword. However, it does better against Nurgle's things.

 

I just made 2 tac squads, one w/ pf+sb and one w/ pp and pw. I'll watch how they do.

you are correct against T3 models, igrnoring the instant death ability, a sword will outperform a fist, and outperform a claw if you do not charge (identical on a charge). Though against guard you DEFINATLY want the fist, as it can plow through vehicles. Against nids and tau there are highly used T4 multiwound models. so the only army I can think of were the fist is not severly advantagous (except for saving points of course) are Which hunters and eldar.

[pingo]

Personally, I feel it's difficult to go wrong with a powerfist. The 'Why powerfist' thread was pretty interesting, but I remain convinced it's a good option. It's as much a psychological threat than an actual one. Will you opponent really want to charge his dreadnought or expensive character into your tactical squad if the sergeant has a powerfist? Could be that the chances of the fist causing your opponent a problem is statistically small in a given situation, but the threat may be enough to deter an attack.

 

Some may argue that your tactical squad should never end up in assault anyway; but in the heat of a game, stuff happens you can't avoid. In that situation a fist may really help.

 

However, although all my tactical sergeants at the moment have a fist I won't continue that trend purely to mix things up modelling wise (I'm a hobbyist first). Also, having a cheaper option available to you might help when building lists.

[Giga]

For tatical squad sergents, I think the best load out is Power Fist and boltgun. Since you can not gain the extra attack for off hand close combat weapon with a Power Fist, I see no reason for the bolt Pistol. If I have points to spare I may equipe the sergent with a combi flamer.

This.

 

A sergeant with powerfist and combiflamer, in a tac squad with a flamer, is a really nice thing as it turns the squad into an effective infantry killer.

 

In a defensive squad, that rarely leaves the deployment zone (sits back and holds an objective), you may as well omit the powerfist and just give the guy a chainsword.

[Xeonic]

First off, great job magnetizing your devestators, this way you'll need a mere handful of models to get your armies heavy weapon options instead of whole squads worth. Those who say "just use more models" think how many models you(or most players) dedicate to special and heavy weapon options. If you're like me this means your tactical squads are something like 15 man squads at least. That's 50% more models than you field that sit out every game, so the potential benefit from magnetizing is huge.

 

As for the sergeants there's a lot of debate on the matter(see the "why powerfists" thread if you ever get some time to have a read), but most fielded setup I use is just powerfist and bolt pistol. The reasoning is that the powerfist lets the squad take on so much more in CC than it could otherwise, and the pistol gives you a shot before you charge. If I was fielding a squad as 5 man combat squads, I would probably sub in one of my power weapon models so it could strike at I and thus most likely not die before swinging. For me the most useful sergeant upgrades(that I would represent if I were magnetizing) are power fist, power weapon, combi flamer, combi melta, plasma pistol, and maybe even storm bolter, and as well as that I'd want some way to represent meltabombs on the model. and if I'm not mistaken that's most of the available upgrades, but you don't have to replicate them for all sergeants, just the most common ones you field the most. That is to say if you like fistasarges, you'll need a fist for each sarge. you may not ever need combi plasmas or combi meltas or storm bolters, but the most common upgrades for sure. Also remember if you plan to magnetize your character models(the captain box is a fantastic value) you'll have some of those upgrades lying around anyways so just having these upgrades in your box is beneficial.

 

Personally if I were magnetizing my sergeants at this point I'd set up a fist and bolt pistol for each, a power weapon for each, meltabombs for each and a few combis(two at most total of each type) specifically combiflamer and melta, a couple plasma pistols, as well as a couple chainswords for when I'm strapped for points. I'd also magnetize the backpacks of at least a couple to get dev sgt signums or jumppacks. Actually on that note to get codex accurate markings you'll want at least sets of right shoulders for assault, devestator, and tactical. Of course if you have a bunch of right handed pistol arms you should be fine there too, lefthanded power fists, chainswords, and power weapons aren't that rare.

 

Really for sarge there are a few useful combos: Fist and pistol or any ranged upgrade, power weapon and a pistol, chainsword and pistol, ranged upgrades only, and meltabombs with anything that's not a fist.