dark_inquisitor Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 The way I see it is that the Emperor had a plan to save mankind from chaos and deliver them ala golden path, just less tyranny (dune refernce), and have mankind evolve into something akin to Eldar with the psychic-ness-osity. When Magnus projected himself sacrificing the joe blows and using arhiman, he broke the golden throne which had irreplaceable parts, thus destroying the emperors plans because they revolved around that damn chair. He was too arrogant to use any other means, thinking he could do it best. Therefore, he is responsible for the ensuing ten thousand years of bloodshed with still no end in sight. Then, not even his legion should trust him after he let them fight without him against the space wolves. I understand he didnt want to harm the emperor, but still, he was sacrificing his legion. Thoughts? should he be the most hated of all or am I hoplessly misguided? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 In the Black Library continuum, perhaps. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 He was warning the Emperor of Horus’s treachery. The Horus Heresy caused the 10,000 years of bloodshed, etc, not Magnus’ actions (though that will have contributed). He was a Hero, pure and simple. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The emperors chosen Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 A misguided hero perhaps, but generally, most people I have seen regard him as having good intentions, but I still feel he could have found another way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 He deliberately used the exact same sorcery that the Emprah had asked him not to use and then at the council at Nikaea forbidden him from using. He knew that there would be fallout from casting such an unprecedented spell across the galaxy. He knew he was sending a huge bundle of sorcerous, warp tainted energy directly at the Emperor and the home of Mankind. The rest of the story is well known. He did, however, act out of love for his father and his empire, which is admirable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Magnus was a tragic hero who made some bad choices with the best of intentions. Like every other fallen Primarch, Magnus' mistakes could have been easily prevented if the Emperor hadn't been such a secretive, distrustful tool to all of his 'sons'. "Hey son, I know you're badarse and all, but this warp stuff isn't all puppies and sports cars; there be ancient, powerful entities that are pure evil and want your soul" would probably have worked far better than "Bad Magnus, don't use the abilities I gave you in the first place...why? because daddy says so!" Same can be said for Horus, Night Haunter, Angron, all of em really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Mechanicum Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Maybe if the Emperor had actually..I dont know...asked the son who knows to navigate the warp very well to help with the experiments. He might have then known not to send massive energy at the Emperor to warn him about his greatest son betraying him and planning to attack all that time. Hmmm, damn mistrustful I can do anything cause i'm epic people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Worms Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I like how it puts the option out there that the emperor could have been an oblivious douche who just expects his edicts to be obeyed without question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 All that was known about the Emperors Webway Gate was that the Emperor was working on something deep in his basement that he shielded psychically. None of the Primarchs knew that it was a webway he was building. And Sorcery was the fastest way to warn the Emperor of Horus' betrayal. Why use Carrier Pigeons when you can use the telepone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyperion Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 A psychic telephone powered by human sacrifice that destroys humanity's only hope for the future?! What annoys me is this - if Magnus did not want to destroy the Wolves (because he knew the Emperor would need them later) he could have sacrificed his Legion in a more useful way. If he had launched an all-out assault against Horus's forces then at least they would have died fighting for the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 A psychic telephone powered by human sacrifice that destroys humanity's only hope for the future?! What annoys me is this - if Magnus did not want to destroy the Wolves (because he knew the Emperor would need them later) he could have sacrificed his Legion in a more useful way. If he had launched an all-out assault against Horus's forces then at least they would have died fighting for the Emperor. Someone had to save the books :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2311964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 The road to hell is paved with good intentions. However Magnus was a traitor. There is no question about it, he was told not to do something, or it will bring hell down on your legion...and he did it. And attached a damned name tag to it. The level of his trechery is debatable depending on which book you read. Thousand Sons has him give a half decent explaination for this method. Not good still but...In False Gods he basically says, "Doing it this way means my father will HAVE to admit socery is useful :) and i'll be able to say i was right." And as for obeying without question? You're a soldier Magnus, follow orders... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2312096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarified Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Having just finished A Thousand Sons novel it was actually quite sad, he thought he was in control of a situation and then it's all turned on its head when he realises what a puppet he actually is to higher powers. I strongly disagree with everyone saying he was an out and out tratior. With reguards to people questioning his choice of sacrifice, read the book again. He could not attack his brothers for fear of giving into chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2312687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Scourge Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I'm firmly in the The-Emperor-was-a-damn-fool-and-the-heresy-was-all-his-fault camp. He created these ultimate generals and you'd think his limitless lifespan and unique historical viewpoint would prove to him that the best generals rarely do as they're told unless they know why...because they're trained to think for themselves. Especially, when he'd retired and shut them all off from further instructions after Ullanor. He also should have known that Chaos had plans for his sons. They don't just steal them from a lab and transport them all over the galaxy only to forget about them entirely. "Well Magnus, you should ease up on the sorcery because...well this is going to sound crazy considering everything I've told you so far...but there really are Gods and they're :cusss. They're watching you and waiting for you to give them an opportunity to ruin you and I because of a pact I broke years ago in order to conceive you and your brothers. Just...be cool until this whole Great Crusade thing pans out and then you'll be responsible for maintaining the single most important works of my long long long life. You will usher mankind into an age of glory. Just...shoot stuff with your gun for a while until I call for you. PS: Don't think you're smarter than them...I thought I was and that backfired. I'm smarter and more powerful than you. They still managed to come out on top." For Horus it would have been a lot easier. "Horus, Daddy loves you and trusts you to do the right thing. You will rule over my armies for eternity if I have my way. Be good and keep your brothers from doing anything stupid." Oh yeah, and he should have killed Lorgar and had the Word Bearers wiped from the annals of history when he first realized how unstable they were. Who knew a perfect being had no common sense? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2312891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I'm firmly in the The-Emperor-was-a-damn-fool-and-the-heresy-was-all-his-fault camp. He created these ultimate generals and you'd think his limitless lifespan and unique historical viewpoint would prove to him that the best generals rarely do as they're told unless they know why...because they're trained to think for themselves. Especially, when he'd retired and shut them all off from further instructions after Ullanor. He also should have known that Chaos had plans for his sons. They don't just steal them from a lab and transport them all over the galaxy only to forget about them entirely. "Well Magnus, you should ease up on the sorcery because...well this is going to sound crazy considering everything I've told you so far...but there really are Gods and they're :cusss. They're watching you and waiting for you to give them an opportunity to ruin you and I because of a pact I broke years ago in order to conceive you and your brothers. Just...be cool until this whole Great Crusade thing pans out and then you'll be responsible for maintaining the single most important works of my long long long life. You will usher mankind into an age of glory. Just...shoot stuff with your gun for a while until I call for you. PS: Don't think you're smarter than them...I thought I was and that backfired. I'm smarter and more powerful than you. They still managed to come out on top." For Horus it would have been a lot easier. "Horus, Daddy loves you and trusts you to do the right thing. You will rule over my armies for eternity if I have my way. Be good and keep your brothers from doing anything stupid." Oh yeah, and he should have killed Lorgar and had the Word Bearers wiped from the annals of history when he first realized how unstable they were. Who knew a perfect being had no common sense? I firmly believe the Emperor never thought of any of the Primarchs as 'sons' so much as a way of distilling certain parts of himself and spreading em around to make his own planning easier. Part of me has always wondered if Chaos' big stroke wasn't kidnapping the primarchs, but rather giving them free will independent of what the Big E wanted; I just struggle with the concept that this immortal dictator had been plotting for millenia just so he could create beings close to his level of power to be a big loving military family. His complete lack of human understanding and compassion beyond making a pretty speech is fairly obvious - 'What's that son, you want to die alongside the oppressed gladiator rebels you are leading on this horribly unjust planet? Well I am a supreme warrior well known for fighting alongside my sons and beating terrible odds...so I'll just kidnap you, doom your loyal followers, and make you hate my guts from the word go, we cool?" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2313029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 If things went according to plan, it would be Magnus spending eternity sat on the goldenthrone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2313114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 If things went according to plan, it would be Magnus spending eternity sat on the goldenthrone. What a nice way for a living!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2314078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyear Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I believe that the Emperor was nothing more then the culmination of bunch of Shamans, all wanting the same thing: A perfect human, a man that would lead humanity through the dark horrors that awaited it, that would be cruel, calculating and more then anything, would do whatever it took to win. If that meant sacrificing hundreds of worlds, he'd do it, simply because it was the best strategy. To be plain and simple, the Emperor was a man with a plan and a single-minded determination to push that plan onwards, no regards for cost, life, or anything else. Knowing full well that he couldn't do this alone and that he couldn't possibly count on normal men, he first created his superhuman soldiers, his Astartes, whilst powerful beyond a doubt there was not a soul amongst them with the sheer brilliance of the Emperor. He finally decided that if Humanity should conquer the stars, it should be by his hand and the hand of his proxies. Which in truth were all the Primarchs ever war, they were proxie-emperors, made to be tools for him to use. He forged the best parts of himself, the single-mindedness, he forged into Perturabo, and this can be drawn to all the different Primarchs. He did not view them as Sons, nor as parts of himself, he viewed them as Generals forged from his own blood. And I believe had he been allowed to cultivate them himself they would have conquered the stars, but ultimately it was the simple human nature that forced everything aside. Of all the Primarchs, I believe that the Lion was the most like the Emperor. Cold, Distant and not able to relate, a demi-god amongst men, a true proxy to the Emperor, made in his image. Made to stand ABOVE fellow men, to lead them, instead most Primarchs became great warriors, orators, uniting nations, galaxies beneath there rule until the Emperor made them heel. But by then, the harm had been done, they had become human and no longer the Demi-gods that they should have been. That is my idea at least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2314118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 No really as he only needed some to sit on it whilst the web way was being built. Upon completion Magnus or who ever would be free :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2314123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_VanBriesen Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 To be honest Magnus probably would have done alot less harm had he obeyed the Emperors commands, yes it is highly probable the Istvaan massacres would have still happened, but on the plus side the loyalists would have had two more legions adding their strength as opposed to being tied in conflict far from the front lines, just like the ultramarines and the word bearers. just think if the imperial palace had been defended by not only the white scars, blood angles, and imperial fists, but by the space wolves and thousand sons as well their respective primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2315555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 This explains why Leman Russ disappeared. He finaly swallowed his pride, realised what a big screw up everythingw as and popped into the eye of terror to find Magnus, apologise and talk about old times over a pint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2316918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb85 Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Which in truth were all the Primarchs ever war, they were proxie-emperors, made to be tools for him to use. He forged the best parts of himself, the single-mindedness, he forged into Perturabo, and this can be drawn to all the different Primarchs. He did not view them as Sons, nor as parts of himself, he viewed them as Generals forged from his own blood. And I believe had he been allowed to cultivate them himself they would have conquered the stars, but ultimately it was the simple human nature that forced everything aside. Of all the Primarchs, I believe that the Lion was the most like the Emperor. Any reason for this? The HH books seem to suggest that Sanguinius was the closest to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2316964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korraz Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 IMO they ALL represented him in a way. Sanguinius had the looks and the glamour, Horus had the brains, Guilliman had the determination and narrow-mindness, Vulkan the skillfulness, and so on. Yes, they all had parts of this, but some were more distinctive than others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2317047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 He was a Hero, pure and simple. He was just a fool and a traitor. If he had been loyal, he would have chosen the death instead of treason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2317194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 ah, i love this debate. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/194356-magnus-the-failure/#findComment-2317209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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