Magnus the Failure

[Hfran Morkai]

You'd think that Magnus would have a little more control over his legion.

 

"Don't fight the Wolves sons"

 

" :D you!"

 

Considering he was what made them who they were and he had protected them, enabled them to learn so much and they throw it back in his face, with normal humans I could understand it, but this guy was a demi-god and his super-soldiers existed because of him.

 

He messed up big time though, and the Wolves visited sweet justice upon them, ignorant of the foul forces of play, forces Magnus was too arrogant to believe or put too much faith into. He made a bargain with Chaos and had to foot the bill.

[Hellios]

He was a Hero, pure and simple.

 

He was just a fool and a traitor. If he had been loyal, he would have chosen the death instead of treason.

 

The Emperor was a fool, it was he who fell into the trap of chaos it is he who betrayed mankind to eternal damnation and suffering of chaos.

 

The Emperor was arrogant and Magnus was naive... that is a bad combination... but it is the Emperor who should have known better.

[Lansirill]

The Emperor was a fool, it was he who fell into the trap of chaos it is he who betrayed mankind to eternal damnation and suffering of chaos.

 

That's not a bad view. It actually paints Magnus and the Emperor in a very similar light. They both were powerful, they both thought they knew exactly what they were doing, and they both were bitten by their arrogance. Magnus failed because he thought he knew what would happen when he used his powers and was wrong. The Emperor failed because he thought he knew what his sons would do and was wrong. Unless the Emperor -meant- to have Magnus screw up, Horus turn traitor, and end up tied to the golden toilet for ten thousand years... then, hey, go-go gadget Emprah!

 

I dunno, the Emperor was a nuck-fut.

[Tyear]

Which in truth were all the Primarchs ever war, they were proxie-emperors, made to be tools for him to use. He forged the best parts of himself, the single-mindedness, he forged into Perturabo, and this can be drawn to all the different Primarchs. He did not view them as Sons, nor as parts of himself, he viewed them as Generals forged from his own blood. And I believe had he been allowed to cultivate them himself they would have conquered the stars, but ultimately it was the simple human nature that forced everything aside. Of all the Primarchs, I believe that the Lion was the most like the Emperor.

 

Any reason for this? The HH books seem to suggest that Sanguinius was the closest to him.

 

Ai the HH books suggest that Sanguinius was most like him, at least in terms of appearance and clairvoyance. But I meant in overall behavior, when the Lion was found he had been a man who had grown up amongst beast. Who had not learned to be human, in the same way the Emperor, born with the spirits of all the shamans of earth inside him, had been born without a family to learn from. Both had to learn first to survive and then learn how to be human, in every story the Emperor is shown as being above ordinary men, being unable to communicate with them. The Lion has these very same problems, that's why I feel behavior-wise, he's the closet to the Emperor.

[Pulse]

No way was Magnus a traitor in any shape or form.

 

If the blame must go on anyone its the Emperor for the knowledge of chaos and the warp. Why he chose with withhold the information from his sons we obviously don't know, but it could possibley be the fact like all children, you tell them not to do something and they do it, maybe the Emperor was worried people like Magnus and such would actively seek it out, although Magnus did anyway.

 

Still the Emperor is to blame for everything that has happened, reading "The Last Church" by Graham McNeill - gives good reference for the Emperors disregard for important things.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

No way was Magnus a traitor in any shape or form.

 

If the blame must go on anyone its the Emperor for the knowledge of chaos and the warp. Why he chose with withhold the information from his sons we obviously don't know, but it could possibley be the fact like all children, you tell them not to do something and they do it, maybe the Emperor was worried people like Magnus and such would actively seek it out, although Magnus did anyway.

 

Still the Emperor is to blame for everything that has happened, reading "The Last Church" by Graham McNeill - gives good reference for the Emperors disregard for important things.

 

According to the Collected Visions upon meeting Magnus in person the Emperor had worked with him on his psychic abilities and then shown Magnus the deeper secrets of the Warp. He also makes magnus promise not to delve further into his sorcerous practices. Magnus agrees to this.

 

THen ignores it all, as he was already beguiled by the mysteries and power located in the Warp.

 

WLK

[TheDarker]

As told, it´s suggested that the Emperor told Magnus about the Warp and the perils on it. And Magnus ignores it. This was like saying "Yea Magnus, using a Tomahawk to send a message is faster than a person running... but more dangerous." And then having Magnus sending the Mother Of All Tomahawks to warn the Emperor thinking "He will be happy, sure!!!". Yea Magnus... yeah...

 

I can understand that he wasn´t the typicall "bad boy"... but unlike others who fell because of lies and similars, he was warned and still jump in the hole.

 

 

Hell, if you wanted to be more useful you could have gone to Terra to warn the Emperor in person. Yeah, Horus would be on the way to Terra, but at least you would be there to help. Or he could have supposed that the Emperor will be angry, and packed all the stuff on his planet and run away until things get calm again... not simpli waiting untill someone says "he, its funny, that looks like Space Wolves Drop Pods..."

[Pulse]

Ah yes for some reason i had forgotton totally about the collected visions!!!

 

I still cannot blame Magnus for what he did, even if his message did shatter the psychic defences of the palace, how long would have it taken Magnus to travel to Terra? My guess is that the gods of the warp must have known that Magnus found out about Horus' treachery and so would have done everything in their power to stop or delay Magnus, so that sending a message of that power to warn the Emperor would surely be the last resort.

[Gree]

THen ignores it all, as he was already beguiled by the mysteries and power located in the Warp.

 

WLK

 

A Thousand Sons has him do it for his Sons. Which is admirable out of simple love for his gene-children.

 

You'd think that Magnus would have a little more control over his legion.

 

"Don't fight the Wolves sons"

 

" you!"

 

Considering he was what made them who they were and he had protected them, enabled them to learn so much and they throw it back in his face, with normal humans I could understand it, but this guy was a demi-god and his super-soldiers existed because of him.

 

They are Astartes. Do you honestly think that any Astartes would willingly sit back and watch their legion, their homeworld and their traditions destroyed without firing a shot? I can't imagine the Space Wolves standing by if Russ ordered them to not fight back against an invader.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

THen ignores it all, as he was already beguiled by the mysteries and power located in the Warp.

 

WLK

 

A Thousand Sons has him do it for his Sons. Which is admirable out of simple love for his gene-children.

 

 

"I was greedy and lusted for power, betraying my oath to the Emperor and risked all he built because i know better. But its okay cause i did it for my gene-children."

 

Somehow that doesnt sound right. or admirable. or anything other than selfish and wrong.

 

WLK

[Ethrion]

After reading A Thousand Sons and really just to get my head around it for my own benefit, basically the situation with the Thousand Sons is:

 

Their gene-seed was unstable and prone to mutation and as a result the Legion was all set to destroy itself.

 

Magnus is found and though he tries everything he cannot find a 'cure', until that is, he makes a pact with Tzeentch although at the time he has no idea what exactly it is that he has made a deal with.

 

Unbeknown-st to Magnus the Legion is not saved but temporarily stopped from mutating until later when Tzeentch will call in his debt.

 

Only at the end, as the Wolves are sacking Prospero does Magnus realize he had been tricked and led along and that he has been a pawn this whole time. Believing he was in control when in fact he was the one being controlled. As a result he decides to let him and his Legion suffer their fate and be destroyed.

 

However, his sons choose to defend their homeworld (as most people would) and only in doing so do they individually learn that they too have been fooled and that they were never really in control of the powers they wielded. The tutelaries finally coming to the fore and exerting their full powers (Tutelaries basically being daemonic entities).

 

While not described by McNeill sometime towards the final stages of the battle Magnus finally decides enough is enough and comes to his sons rescue. With his final act being to 'save' the remaining Thousand Sons by transporting them away into the empyrean.

 

Once on the Planet of Sorcerers (already prepared for them by Tzeentch) Magnus spends ages trying to discover if all his has done has been worth it and if what he did was right. Ultimately arriving at the conclusion that he has been utterly fooled and manipulated from the start. With this realization he surrenders / resigns himself to Tzeentch and ascends to daemonhood.

 

Meanwhile Ahriman and his other captains, all the while remaining loyal to the Emperor, cast the rubric to prevent the mutations from killing more of them. With the effects being as we know.

 

Magnus, now fully traitor and turned to chaos, goes to kill Ahriman for what he has done but again Tzeentch has planned all of it and in realizing this Magnus only banishes Ahriman.

 

So overall, while Magnus is now allied to Tzeentch, Ahriman and his cabal are still technically loyal to the Imperium, however, they hate the Space Wolves for destroying Prospero and all their accumulated knowledge and are determined to get revenge (on the Space Wolves only) as well as recovering all the lost information. This as a result, sometimes comes into conflict with the current Imperium who because of official records think the Thousand Sons are traitors.

 

Ahriman does not want to destroy the Imperium, just to gather knowledge and better control the warp. Little realizing that this is perhaps all part of Tzeentch's plan anyway.

[Dark Mechanicum]

After reading A Thousand Sons and really just to get my head around it for my own benefit, basically the situation with the Thousand Sons is:

 

Their gene-seed was unstable and prone to mutation and as a result the Legion was all set to destroy itself.

 

Magnus is found and though he tries everything he cannot find a 'cure', until that is, he makes a pact with Tzeentch although at the time he has no idea what exactly it is that he has made a deal with.

 

Unbeknown-st to Magnus the Legion is not saved but temporarily stopped from mutating until later when Tzeentch will call in his debt.

 

Only at the end, as the Wolves are sacking Prospero does Magnus realize he had been tricked and led along and that he has been a pawn this whole time. Believing he was in control when in fact he was the one being controlled. As a result he decides to let him and his Legion suffer their fate and be destroyed.

 

However, his sons choose to defend their homeworld (as most people would) and only in doing so do they individually learn that they too have been fooled and that they were never really in control of the powers they wielded. The tutelaries finally coming to the fore and exerting their full powers (Tutelaries basically being daemonic entities).

 

While not described by McNeill sometime towards the final stages of the battle Magnus finally decides enough is enough and comes to his sons rescue. With his final act being to 'save' the remaining Thousand Sons by transporting them away into the empyrean.

 

Once on the Planet of Sorcerers (already prepared for them by Tzeentch) Magnus spends ages trying to discover if all his has done has been worth it and if what he did was right. Ultimately arriving at the conclusion that he has been utterly fooled and manipulated from the start. With this realization he surrenders / resigns himself to Tzeentch and ascends to daemonhood.

 

Meanwhile Ahriman and his other captains, all the while remaining loyal to the Emperor, cast the rubric to prevent the mutations from killing more of them. With the effects being as we know.

 

Magnus, now fully traitor and turned to chaos, goes to kill Ahriman for what he has done but again Tzeentch has planned all of it and in realizing this Magnus only banishes Ahriman.

 

So overall, while Magnus is now allied to Tzeentch, Ahriman and his cabal are still technically loyal to the Imperium, however, they hate the Space Wolves for destroying Prospero and all their accumulated knowledge and are determined to get revenge (on the Space Wolves only) as well as recovering all the lost information. This as a result, sometimes comes into conflict with the current Imperium who because of official records think the Thousand Sons are traitors.

 

Ahriman does not want to destroy the Imperium, just to gather knowledge and better control the warp. Little realizing that this is perhaps all part of Tzeentch's plan anyway.

 

Wow, that is actually an interesting theory there. It does seem that Ahriman is one of the only Chaos Commanders not going after the imperium unless they hold some knowledge he wants. Very interesting it is.

[Bartol the Unforgiving]

I'm not sure if Ahriman and his Cabal are still loyal to the Imperium, everything that Ahriman has done over the past ten thousand years suggests that he is still on that never ending journey for knowledge. Hisloyalty is to himself now, entreating with the powers of the warp as tools to an end, and cutting through anything that stands in his way of uncovering the secrets of the universe.

 

As to who's fault it was for the past ten thousand years, I think that there are equal shares of blame to go around for everyone. Magnus was a victim of his own hubris, he thought he knew best even when confronted with the knowledge that there were powers in the warp that rivaled his and his father's might. Like-wise, the Emperor is also guilty of this same exact thing. He could have told Magnus about the Golden Throne and the webway, and just said that he would include Magnus when the time was right. But the Emperor made the same mistake, believing he knew best and kept his most curious son in the dark about everything. Great idea.

[Gree]

"I was greedy and lusted for power, betraying my oath to the Emperor and risked all he built because i know better. But its okay cause i did it for my gene-children."

 

Where does it say he did it for power? The book makes it quite clear it was to save his sons.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

"I was greedy and lusted for power, betraying my oath to the Emperor and risked all he built because i know better. But its okay cause i did it for my gene-children."

 

Where does it say he did it for power? The book makes it quite clear it was to save his sons.

 

I think he lusted after the power of the Warp, to further his already prodigious abilities.

[JEFF4i]

The thing that gets me about Magnus is the line talking about generous and benevolent power in the warp in A Thousand Sons.

 

He just took immeasurable power, and never asked why it was there and what it wanted.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

"I was greedy and lusted for power, betraying my oath to the Emperor and risked all he built because i know better. But its okay cause i did it for my gene-children."

 

Where does it say he did it for power? The book makes it quite clear it was to save his sons.

 

he said that in the COllected Visions.

 

whatever comes from that book is to be taken with the largest grain of salt possible. nobody ever thinks to themselves "My, doing this will make me evil beyond redemption"...they do their actions thinking they know best. magnus did, and look at him. a guppy playing with sharks.

 

WLK

[Gree]

he said that in the COllected Visions.

 

Which seems to be an entirely secondary motive. Magnus had such a motive, but it appeared only later, from his flashbacks in the book his pact with Chaos first stemmed entirely to save his Sons. Those thoughts appearantly came later.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

he said that in the COllected Visions.

 

Which seems to be an entirely secondary motive. Magnus had such a motive, but it appeared only later, from his flashbacks in the book his pact with Chaos first stemmed entirely to save his Sons. Those thoughts appearantly came later.

 

Have you read the Collected Visions?

It states that the Emperor warned Magnus upon the dangers of the Warp on their first real meeting, and made magnus promise not to delve further. Magnus agreed to this, but when the Emperor left, contined his practices, as he already fell for the beautyof the warp and the power it promised.

 

I dont care what graham mcsuck put in his bias book (both macneil and abnett said their books will show the situation from their respective point of views) when a unbiased source is already availabl.

 

WLK

[Gree]

his pact with Chaos first stemmed entirely to save his Sons. Those thoughts appearantly came later.

Have you read the Collected Visions?

 

I have.

 

Have you read a Thousand Sons?

 

It states that the Emperor warned Magnus upon the dangers of the Warp on their first real meeting, and made magnus promise not to delve further. Magnus agreed to this, but when the Emperor left, contined his practices, as he already fell for the beautyof the warp and the power it promised.

 

And it's explained in the book that Magnus did so much later after he cured his legion.

 

I dont care what graham mcsuck put in his bias book (both macneil and abnett said their books will show the situation from their respective point of views) when a unbiased source is already availabl.

 

WLK

 

And judging my your title and set you yourself must be looking at this from an unbiased view. :rolleyes:

 

Abnett and other authors have stated they consider the Horus Heresy series canon. Alan Merett, head of GW's IP department, also is in overall charge of the series, he also wrote the artbooks.

 

It appears GW is making the Horus Heresy series what actually happened, after all, the artbooks have contridicted the novels multiple times before on several occasions, while sharing the basic plot points. It's easy to view the Visions books as the collections of an Imperial scribe.

 

Actually I would even go as far to say Thousand Sons is the better source because Collection Visions gives us a vague reasoning at best for MAgnus's actions while Thousand Sons gives us vastly more deeper detail.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i havent read A Thousand Sons yet. I am waiting till Prospero Burns and plan to read them together. so when i read thm both, i dotn run off half cocked saying i solved the puzzle when i have only seen half of it.

I have waited this long for Prospero Burn, a little longer wont kill me. (actually, i might just break an buy it anyways, bu I'm only human DAMMIT)

 

i currently hold a BA in the study of History. while i cannot quote every event that occured to mankind at this stage, the thing that was repeatedly hammered into my head when looking at any source of information was to: consider what point of view this information is coming from, and to consider what message this source is trying to impart. I play 40k for the background, and when i started the Wolves had the most feshed out background due to William King. Now, once again, that i disagree with what the current fad is saying i am being labled biased. I love the game for its bakground, and hope only to continue to embrace it ALL, not just the parts i like. That whats i really learned during my college years, to embrace the WHOLE truth, not the tidbits that i approve of. I hope you can say the same of yourself.

 

now i am not saying that MacNeil's "A Thousand Sons" is totally wrong, i am just saying that is may not be totally right. As Obi-Wan once said,

So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view

. Until we have a complete story, we must rely upon the facts we already have, which are as canon as the HH book series. (which i never disputed for the matter. you like to repeat bit dont you?)

 

WLK

[Gree]

i havent read A Thousand Sons yet. I am waiting till Prospero Burns and plan to read them together. so when i read thm both,

 

No offense, but you should really not be speaking about a subject when you have never read the book in question.

 

i dotn run off half cocked saying i solved the puzzle when i have only seen half of it.

 

Too late. B)

 

i currently hold a BA in the study of History.

 

And I care.....why?

 

i currently hold a BA in the study of History. while i cannot quote every event that occured to mankind at this stage, the thing that was repeatedly hammered into my head when looking at any source of information was to: consider what point of view this information is coming from, and to consider what message this source is trying to impart. I play 40k for the background, and when i started the Wolves had the most feshed out background due to William King. Now, once again, that i disagree with what the current fad is saying i am being labled biased. I love the game for its bakground, and hope only to continue to embrace it ALL, not just the parts i like. That whats i really learned during my college years, to embrace the WHOLE truth, not the tidbits that i approve of. I hope you can say the same of yourself.

 

Of course I can, but your words don't really show that.

 

now i am not saying that MacNeil's "A Thousand Sons" is totally wrong, i am just saying that is may not be totally right. As Obi-Wan once said,

So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view

. Until we have a complete story, we must rely upon the facts we already have, which are as canon as the HH book series. (which i never disputed for the matter. you like to repeat bit dont you?)

 

Or we could go with what already is. Chances are Prospero Burns will just show us Russ's view and not what actually happened to Magnus.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

well done gree, you showed the same level of sense here as you did with Beef in the SW subforum. i had thought this was going to be waste of time, but hoped you would show some promise. my mistake.

walkign away before this turns into another barrage of posts where nothing is solved.

 

WLK

[Gree]

well done gree, you showed the same level of sense here as you did with Beef in the SW subforum. i had thought this was going to be waste of time, but hoped you would show some promise. my mistake.

walkign away before this turns into another barrage of posts where nothing is solved.

 

WLK

 

And do you have nothing further do add? If someone disagrees with your opinion you don't need to run off in a huff about it. These forums are for friendly discussion.

 

Well anyway at least's that's taken care of.

[Rain]

Well, I think what you might be missing WLK is why Magnus sought that forbidden power. It's granted that he warned by the Emperor not to dabble in sorcery, but the reason he continued, was not pure self aggrandizement, which would typecast him as the stereotypical "evil" character, but to halt the gene mutation that had almost seen his legion disbanded. This is pretty classic "tragic hero" stuff, I mean Oedipus was warned by an oracle that he would kill his father and marry his mother, and yet he still did it, albeit accidentally.

 

The point is that tragic heroes generally have some flaw that leads to their downfall (in Magnus's case a bit of arrogance) but their intention is usually good, Oedipus fled his home when he heard the prophecy (not knowing he was adopted), and Magnus meant to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal (not knowing that he was being played be Tzeentch), yet both are tragic heroes, sure they came to bad ends, but that's the whole point, they are heroic because of what they tried to do and tragic because of what actually happened.