Magnus the Failure

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Well, I think what you might be missing WLK is why Magnus sought that forbidden power. It's granted that he warned by the Emperor not to dabble in sorcery, but the reason he continued, was not pure self aggrandizement, which would typecast him as the stereotypical "evil" character, but to halt the gene mutation that had almost seen his legion disbanded. This is pretty classic "tragic hero" stuff, I mean Oedipus was warned by an oracle that he would kill his father and marry his mother, and yet he still did it, albeit accidentally.

 

The point is that tragic heroes generally have some flaw that leads to their downfall (in Magnus's case a bit of arrogance) but their intention is usually good, Oedipus fled his home when he heard the prophecy (not knowing he was adopted), and Magnus meant to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal (not knowing that he was being played be Tzeentch), yet both are tragic heroes, sure they came to bad ends, but that's the whole point, they are heroic because of what they tried to do and tragic because of what actually happened.

 

This halting of gene mutation has (1) only been mentioned in "A Thousand Sons" and (2) was unknown to Magnus when he promised the Emperor not to furthur delve into sorcery as per the Collected Heresy...unless it has also been retconned and Magnus knew of the future problems of the Legion he had not yet been given.

So as i have yet to read the seemingly revisionist novel that is "A Thousand Sons", I am unaware of the problems that Magnus encounter. I'll pick up the novel next time i am in town, nd if not agree with, atleast see what drove Magnus to becoming a traitor.

 

I'll be honest, i dont care for villians with large mustache who twirl them around their fingers while tying the damse to a train track. A conflicted villian, like what Magneto of the X-Men franchise, has always been more interesting, and if thats what Magnus is being retconned into, then awesome. Its makes for a better story.

 

WLK

[Gree]

This halting of gene mutation has (1) only been mentioned in "A Thousand Sons"

 

Actually no, it was mentioned in the IA article.

 

IA Thousand Sons.

 

Moreover, the increasingly vocal anti-mutant 'witch hunting' crusades within the Imperium had seized upon the out-of-control Legion as evidence of the danger of psychic mutation. Cries that demanded purging the Imperium of psykers completely were not uncommon, and those directed at the remote and superhuman Space Marines of the Thousand Sons were among the most strident. Magnus came just in time to save the Legion from the threat of destruction

 

There are scholars, especially among the Librarians of certain Space Marine Chapters, who suggest it was during this time that another threshold was crossed. They believe that the crisis of controlling an entire Legion's destructive psychic mutancy caused Magnus to seek shortcuts, or explore more perilous paths

 

Actually, A Thousand Sons is not revisonist at all, it fits quite well with the original Index Astartes article.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The gene mutation in question is the psychic gene?

thats just retarded.

 

when i saw gene mutation, i thought of real mutation that is limited to a single legion, such as the fangs of the Wolves, or the complexion of the Raven Guard.

the psychic gene isnt limited to a single legion, or any legion. its present n all of humanity.

 

WLK

[Gree]

The gene mutation in question is the psychic gene?

thats just retarded.

 

when i saw gene mutation, i thought of real mutation that is limited to a single legion, such as the fangs of the Wolves, or the complexion of the Raven Guard.

the psychic gene isnt limited to a single legion, or any legion. its present n all of humanity.

 

WLK

 

Actually the gene-mutation was more like uncontralable psychic abiltities that cause Flesh Change, most humans have very little warp abitltities. The mutation that the Sons suffered was like super-charging them all were they could not control how it affected their bodies.

 

In the novel the Sons suffer from physical mutations from their powers until Magnus fixes them. They were almost destroyed by it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The gene mutation in question is the psychic gene?

thats just retarded.

 

when i saw gene mutation, i thought of real mutation that is limited to a single legion, such as the fangs of the Wolves, or the complexion of the Raven Guard.

the psychic gene isnt limited to a single legion, or any legion. its present n all of humanity.

 

WLK

 

Actually the gene-mutation was more like uncontralable psychic abiltities that cause Flesh Change, most humans have very little warp abitltities. The mutation that the Sons suffered was like super-charging them all were they could not control how it affected their bodies.

 

In the novel the Sons suffer from physical mutations from their powers until Magnus fixes them. They were almost destroyed by it.

 

Thats actually pretty interesting...i wonder why the Emperor would create (or atleast continue) such a faulty gene-line? if all the warriors of "X" are seriouly screwed up, why continue to create warriors "X" when you got successful warriors "Y" and "Z"?

 

DAMN BOOK SERIES CREATING MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS!!?!?!

 

WLK

[Gree]

The gene mutation in question is the psychic gene?

thats just retarded.

 

when i saw gene mutation, i thought of real mutation that is limited to a single legion, such as the fangs of the Wolves, or the complexion of the Raven Guard.

the psychic gene isnt limited to a single legion, or any legion. its present n all of humanity.

 

WLK

 

Actually the gene-mutation was more like uncontralable psychic abiltities that cause Flesh Change, most humans have very little warp abitltities. The mutation that the Sons suffered was like super-charging them all were they could not control how it affected their bodies.

 

In the novel the Sons suffer from physical mutations from their powers until Magnus fixes them. They were almost destroyed by it.

 

Thats actually pretty interesting...i wonder why the Emperor would create (or atleast continue) such a faulty gene-line? if all the warriors of "X" are seriouly screwed up, why continue to create warriors "X" when you got successful warriors "Y" and "Z"?

 

DAMN BOOK SERIES CREATING MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS!!?!?!

 

WLK

 

It's implied in the book, but ti would be spoilers to reveal it here.

 

 

The Emperor created Magnus and his legion to be his special battery for the Golden Throne. That's why they have so much psychic powers.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

okay, knew the first one already, didnt know the second half.

 

WLK

[Magnus Thane]

To be honest Magnus probably would have done alot less harm had he obeyed the Emperors commands, yes it is highly probable the Istvaan massacres would have still happened, but on the plus side the loyalists would have had two more legions adding their strength as opposed to being tied in conflict far from the front lines, just like the ultramarines and the word bearers. just think if the imperial palace had been defended by not only the white scars, blood angles, and imperial fists, but by the space wolves and thousand sons as well their respective primarchs.

 

But Magnus wasn't aware of this. In fact i'd probably have done the same. His actions 'an sich' seem logical given the situation. Warn the Emperor before the enemy pushes on. He'll understand that I bended the rules a bit. And after that a plan can be made and I'll send my Thousand Sons to wherever they're needed...

Only common sense isn't always right. Given the info he had at hand, it seemed preferable to contact the big chief... regretfully the Emperor for one reason or other reacted quite different, failing to check things out.

 

As cool and epic as the Horus Heresy is (Lotr and Star Wars epic story-wise) - like all grand tales it is filled with deus ex machina's, heropoints and out of character moments that serve the grander storyscheme...

[randian]

Once on the Planet of Sorcerers (already prepared for them by Tzeentch) Magnus spends ages trying to discover if all his has done has been worth it and if what he did was right. Ultimately arriving at the conclusion that he has been utterly fooled and manipulated from the start. With this realization he surrenders / resigns himself to Tzeentch and ascends to daemonhood.

My reading of it is Magnus ascended the moment they arrived on the Planet of the Sorcerers. Remember that when Magnus first greets his Sons he is described as having already shed his physical body. His spiritual corruption is not yet evident in his physical appearance. I have no doubt they would have rejected him if it had been. Only later is Magnus wasting time staring into the warp and ignoring his Sons, which is pretty much what he still does today.

[Namaan]

Of all the Primarchs, I believe that the Lion was the most like the Emperor....

 

As I read this I noticed the ironic situation that split of the DA has post HH. They have a Integrated interrogation unit in the chapter. The example of the Dark angles sounds exactly like the Inquisitors. It just shows how Lion is the most like the emperor. Further if you compare the Spacewolves to the Dark angels they again would be a mini example of Horus/Emperor conflict.

 

Just thought it was interesting...to share.

[shatter]

Nah, Sanguinius was. However, he was also allowed the best ideals of humanity itself in order to become the great martyr and source of so much inspiration.

 

The Emperor could not possibly allow himself such luxuries. For Him there was only what-must-be-done.

 

Sanguinius was painted into a prescient corner and had to die then and no later else his vision could conflict with His... which is why He had nothing to say to him and why His silence was so terrifying.

 

While somewhat circular, it does suggest a very strong match in the nature and potential of the two.

 

reason for edit: I like to read myself type.

[legionless dog]

what people haven't really picked up on is that the big E could see at least 10,000 into the future and saw that he needed the void dragon ref mechanicum,thenby all means what there to say that he hasnt planned all of this?the whole heresy.

at the end Horus Heresy, The : Collected Visions when the emp says this isnt the end of the war just the start maybe it is :)

[Pulse]

If he saw the heresy before it happened he is a callous character to let his sons be easily corrupted and taking fully half of the space marine legions into heresy and for allowing billions and billions of people to die.

 

Still, saying that who knows what the Emperor saw if he did see that far into the future, maybe there is a way out futher down the line that can break chaos forever, that required him to allow the heresy to take place. ;)

[Kodanshi]

If he saw the heresy before it happened he is a callous character to let his sons be easily corrupted and taking fully half of the space marine legions into heresy and for allowing billions and billions of people to die.

 

Still, saying that who knows what the Emperor saw if he did see that far into the future, maybe there is a way out futher down the line that can break chaos forever, that required him to allow the heresy to take place. :)

Honestly, that’s not really different to god letting satan tempt adam & eve and causing the fall of man…

[Clewz]

If he saw the heresy before it happened he is a callous character to let his sons be easily corrupted and taking fully half of the space marine legions into heresy and for allowing billions and billions of people to die.

 

Still, saying that who knows what the Emperor saw if he did see that far into the future, maybe there is a way out futher down the line that can break chaos forever, that required him to allow the heresy to take place. :lol:

 

getting onto Legion territory there ...

[Amit]

A misguided hero perhaps, but generally, most people I have seen regard him as having good intentions, but I still feel he could have found another way.

 

Yeah 'good intentions' we all know where they leads. The real shame is IMHO, that Magnus could have saved the Imperium - he knew of Horus' treachery, tried but failed to save him. He could have then assembled his Legion and headed of to Terra, but his arrogance blinded him.

[legionless dog]

If he saw the heresy before it happened he is a callous character to let his sons be easily corrupted and taking fully half of the space marine legions into heresy and for allowing billions and billions of people to die.

 

Still, saying that who knows what the Emperor saw if he did see that far into the future, maybe there is a way out futher down the line that can break chaos forever, that required him to allow the heresy to take place. :P

 

To destory the greatest evil of all time, your arch enemy. you saying you wouldnt sacrifice it all to see your enemy destroyed i know i would.and dont forget

"the end justifies the means" ;)

[c-wrex]

You know that Inquisition maxim that says "There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt,"? Well it applies to every person (human or xenos) in the 40k Milky Way.

[Epistolary Exander]

Magnus did what he had to do to warn the emperor; using the most reliable means to deliver his message the Earth Webway portal. If the Emperor had told Magnus how he was going to establish a human webway, Im sure Magnus would of acted differently. He might even of attacked Horus & destroy the 63rd Expidition like what Fulgrim threatened to do.

 

Magnus deeplyy regretted destroying the protective wards of the human webway, regretted it enough to sacrifice his legion for the greater good of the Imperium. I say he's a hero for those actions alone.

 

Exander.

[c-wrex]

Magnus deeplyy regretted destroying the protective wards of the human webway, regretted it enough to sacrifice his legion for the greater good of the Imperium. I say he's a hero for those actions alone.

 

Exander.

 

Many murderers currently incarcerated show terrible remorse for their crimes, yet they still must pay their penalty. This does not make them heroes. Magnus doesn't get to be called a hero for feeling bad over his actions which ultimately forced the Emprah into the Golden Throne permanently. Plus, it would have been in the Imperium's best interests if it had another legion around to protect it. He screwed the pooch.

 

I agree if he knew about the webway project he probably wouldn't have tried to force his way through with sorcery, but that doesn't change the fact that he did it anyway, knowing full well the dangerous power of the spell being performed.

[Rain]

Many murderers currently incarcerated show terrible remorse for their crimes, yet they still must pay their penalty. This does not make them heroes. Magnus doesn't get to be called a hero for feeling bad over his actions which ultimately forced the Emprah into the Golden Throne permanently. Plus, it would have been in the Imperium's best interests if it had another legion around to protect it. He screwed the pooch.

 

I agree if he knew about the webway project he probably wouldn't have tried to force his way through with sorcery, but that doesn't change the fact that he did it anyway, knowing full well the dangerous power of the spell being performed.

 

Yeah but modern criminals know that what they are doing is a crime when they do it, or at least have the simple means to. There was no way for Magnus to know that contacting the Emperor would mess up his little science project because the Emperor didn't tell anyone that that's what he was doing. That said, sorcery was prohibited, but then pretty much all psykers were prohibited, so I guess the Space Wolves and their Rune Priests are heretics too B)

[JEFF4i]

Many murderers currently incarcerated show terrible remorse for their crimes, yet they still must pay their penalty. This does not make them heroes. Magnus doesn't get to be called a hero for feeling bad over his actions which ultimately forced the Emprah into the Golden Throne permanently. Plus, it would have been in the Imperium's best interests if it had another legion around to protect it. He screwed the pooch.

 

I agree if he knew about the webway project he probably wouldn't have tried to force his way through with sorcery, but that doesn't change the fact that he did it anyway, knowing full well the dangerous power of the spell being performed.

 

Yeah but modern criminals know that what they are doing is a crime when they do it, or at least have the simple means to. There was no way for Magnus to know that contacting the Emperor would mess up his little science project because the Emperor didn't tell anyone that that's what he was doing. That said, sorcery was prohibited, but then pretty much all psykers were prohibited, so I guess the Space Wolves and their Rune Priests are heretics too ;)

 

Bull. Bottom line. Magnus was warned multiple times to stop his sorcery, and he never did. No excuses.

 

And our Rune Priests truly are different, attempting to create a false dichotomy only shows you as naive as Magnus is.

[Haakon Ironheart]

Magnus for me is an arrogant fool who makes the most basic of mistakes, he believes he can manipulate warp... I don't see good intentions anywhere. He firstly makes a deal with Tzeeench in order to save HIS legion in order he has someone to command and teach, he then kills fellow Astartes because they want to destroy that library he is trying hard to save to further improve HIS knowledge and then he tries to warn the emperor but in fact he is trying to prove HIS point that psychic powers can benefit Mankind. Finally he destroys Emperor's greatest achievement and after the attack on Prospero after another deal with Mr. 999 he agrees to become a Daemon Prince.... Tragic hero??? Sorry but I completely disagree. I think he is more selfish than most of the Primarchs.... the only tragic heroes in HH series until now are Loken, Torgaddon, Demeter and Horus Aximand(Sanguinius will become the most tragic hero as the story progresses I guess...)...My two cents :D

[Lord Haunter]

Bull. Bottom line. Magnus was warned multiple times to stop his sorcery, and he never did. No excuses.

 

And our Rune Priests truly are different, attempting to create a false dichotomy only shows you as naive as Magnus is.

 

the whole point of the nikea thing was to forbid psychic powers being used by Marines, so the wolves are heretics as Rune priests are psykers,

you can call it whatever you want it is and say how different it is, but.... warpstuff is warpstuff, hypocritic wolves, how are Rune priests different?

[Haakon Ironheart]

Bull. Bottom line. Magnus was warned multiple times to stop his sorcery, and he never did. No excuses.

 

And our Rune Priests truly are different, attempting to create a false dichotomy only shows you as naive as Magnus is.

 

the whole point of the nikea thing was to forbid psychic powers being used by Marines, so the wolves are heretics as Rune priests are psykers,

you can call it whatever you want it is and say how different it is, but.... warpstuff is warpstuff, hypocritic wolves, how are Rune priests different?

 

You will learn the nature of the wolves in "Prospero burns"... Even if you see them as hypocritical, it was the TS who first killed SW to save a library... and the wolves never made a deal with mr. 999 (Magnus did it twice and the first time even before HH for Emperor's sake!!!). Wolves may be unsophisticated (though not stupid) but their loyalty to the All-father has been proven again and again for more than 10000 years...