Magnus the Failure

[Lord Haunter]

Bull. Bottom line. Magnus was warned multiple times to stop his sorcery, and he never did. No excuses.

 

And our Rune Priests truly are different, attempting to create a false dichotomy only shows you as naive as Magnus is.

 

the whole point of the nikea thing was to forbid psychic powers being used by Marines, so the wolves are heretics as Rune priests are psykers,

you can call it whatever you want it is and say how different it is, but.... warpstuff is warpstuff, hypocritic wolves, how are Rune priests different?

 

You will learn the nature of the wolves in "Prospero burns"... Even if you see them as hypocritical, it was the TS who first killed SW to save a library... and the wolves never made a deal with mr. 999 (Magnus did it twice and the first time even before HH for Emperor's sake!!!). Wolves may be unsophisticated (though not stupid) but their loyalty to the All-father has been proven again and again for more than 10000 years...

 

There are no wolves on fenris... I'm not asking why they attacked Prospero, I'm just stating that Rune Priests are psykers and there fore most legions were heretics because they still had librarians and the other variants after the edict of nikea and the wolves attacked the 1k sons first, the TS just defended themselves

[Whitefireinferno]

On Shrike(sp) the planet where the TS open a can of whoop ass on the space puppies to save the Library from them it had already been stated that the wolves had gone overboard and taken swipes at some Tsons before that so they had it comming.

[Kodanshi]

Fairly new to this, so forgive any ignorance on my part in terms of pre-established HH fluff. I haven't finished the Collected Visions. However, nothing in McNeill's book EXPLICITLY states that any of the 1K Sons killed a Space Wolf. They cause them damage, and make them writhe around, but Ahriman stops them before they kill any Space Wolves. Then one of the Sons goes through a flesh change and promptly gets shot dead... by Leman Russ. After Magnus and Russ's altercation, Russ walks off declaring that he will have his revenge for spilt SW blood. And yet the only blood explicitly described as spilt is that of the Thousand Sons!

[Ashe Darke]

There are no wolves on fenris... I'm not asking why they attacked Prospero, I'm just stating that Rune Priests are psykers and there fore most legions were heretics because they still had librarians and the other variants after the edict of nikea and the wolves attacked the 1k sons first, the TS just defended themselves

They were banned from using their powers, the limited text on the Rune Priest during the attack of Prospero showed no evidence of him using powers. Of course all the legions still had librarians for to remove these individuals from their ranks would be stupid, they can still fight without their powers. The only librarian I've read about post-Nikea era is the one from the Dark Angel books and even then I can't remember if he uses them or not. Even if he did the marines left on Caliban weren't as pro-Imperium as everyone else, this is also assuming they got the news at this point.

 

Magnus's actions, no matter how noble they may or not be, pretty much boned the defence of Terra during the assault. The rip in real space pre-occupied the Emperor and a good chunk of the SoS and the Custodians for a lengthy period of time during the assault. Had they not had to be kept back fighting off daemons the siege of the palace might have gone quite differently, especially with the Emperor fighting. All the time while reading the bit in Collected Visions about the siege I couldn't help but think 'this would be quite different if the Emperor and his crew were free to fight', and that is Magnus's doing.

[randian]

All the time while reading the bit in Collected Visions about the siege I couldn't help but think 'this would be quite different if the Emperor and his crew were free to fight', and that is Magnus's doing.

That's probably balanced by the lack of participation in the siege by the Emperor's Children.

[Ashe Darke]

But Magnus had nothing to do with that. He was responsible for the Emperor not being involved, the EC did that on their own accord, Magnus didn't prompt that at all. It's not like they felt it was a bit unfair with the Emperor having a sick note and all so decided to sit this one out. But had he been there they might have stuck around, but they weren't exactly huge as far as a legion goes and it's questionable if their presence would balance out against a whole load of SoS, Custodians and the Emperor.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

All the time while reading the bit in Collected Visions about the siege I couldn't help but think 'this would be quite different if the Emperor and his crew were free to fight', and that is Magnus's doing.

That's probably balanced by the lack of participation in the siege by the Emperor's Children.

 

there is no way that the absence of the Emperor, his Custodians and the Sisters of Silence are even close to balancing the Emperor's Children not partakng in the Siege.

to even suggest that i rediculous.

 

WLK

[Lord Haunter]

They were banned from using their powers, the limited text on the Rune Priest during the attack of Prospero showed no evidence of him using powers. Of course all the legions still had librarians for to remove these individuals from their ranks would be stupid, they can still fight without their powers. The only librarian I've read about post-Nikea era is the one from the Dark Angel books and even then I can't remember if he uses them or not. Even if he did the marines left on Caliban weren't as pro-Imperium as everyone else, this is also assuming they got the news at this point.

 

Magnus's actions, no matter how noble they may or not be, pretty much boned the defence of Terra during the assault. The rip in real space pre-occupied the Emperor and a good chunk of the SoS and the Custodians for a lengthy period of time during the assault. Had they not had to be kept back fighting off daemons the siege of the palace might have gone quite differently, especially with the Emperor fighting. All the time while reading the bit in Collected Visions about the siege I couldn't help but think 'this would be quite different if the Emperor and his crew were free to fight', and that is Magnus's doing.

 

Magnus was not ruining the golden throne during the siege of Terra, in fact it was way before the emperor knew of any heresy, Magnus tried to warn Big E, but was not able to say anything after he was shown what he had done (ruining the Imperium's future).Big E was fighting in the Siege maybe not all the time, but he could fight all the time he was just to lazy to kill lots of marines.

[Ashe Darke]

Have you read Collected Visions and Thousand Sons? It clearly states that Magnus's folly destroyed a lot of the equipment and caused a mini bridge between the materium and immaterium via rips in the web way through which daemons were pouring into the section of web way he was building. Ever since then and up until Malcador takes over the Emperor and his guard have been trying to fend them off so they could fix it. This took up a lot of the Emperors psychic will to prevent them from being overrun causing the Astronomicon signal to become weaker. A short term solution was to use psykers to power it like how it is now. The Emperor only retreated from the throne to go after Horus, Malcodor took his place with all the psychic jazz. When Horus died the daemons stopped trying to come in through the web way.

 

The Emperor was very busy between most of the the siege and when Magnus sent his signal. That's why Garro couldn't meet him in person and all other times around that time Malcador says he is too busy to be seen. That's because him and his guards are trying to stop daemons from entering the palace. He wasn't being lazy.

[randian]

All the time while reading the bit in Collected Visions about the siege I couldn't help but think 'this would be quite different if the Emperor and his crew were free to fight', and that is Magnus's doing.

That's probably balanced by the lack of participation in the siege by the Emperor's Children.

there is no way that the absence of the Emperor, his Custodians and the Sisters of Silence are even close to balancing the Emperor's Children not partakng in the Siege.

to even suggest that is ridiculous.

There were at the time tens of thousands of Emperor's Children. I'm pretty sure there weren't tens of thousands of Custodes and Sisters. Don't forget that Astartes > Sisters, and that the EC summoned hundreds of daemons in addition to their own considerable warmaking ability. It is not ridiculous to suggest that if the EC had concentrated their forces on attacking the palace instead of torturing civilians the Siege might have gone differently.

[Ashe Darke]

I think I read somewhere that there was only about 1000 Custodes and I imagine a fair few are/were at Prospero. The SoS I can't imagine being too large seen as they need to fulfil the criteria of being a blank AND a woman.

[JEFF4i]

Bull. Bottom line. Magnus was warned multiple times to stop his sorcery, and he never did. No excuses.

 

And our Rune Priests truly are different, attempting to create a false dichotomy only shows you as naive as Magnus is.

 

the whole point of the nikea thing was to forbid psychic powers being used by Marines, so the wolves are heretics as Rune priests are psykers,

you can call it whatever you want it is and say how different it is, but.... warpstuff is warpstuff, hypocritic wolves, how are Rune priests different?

 

Your grammar makes my eyes bleed. But, I'll entertain it for the moment.

 

Look up false dichotomy, perhaps you will understand my previous point. Responding to an accusation of a false dichotomy with one isn't exactly the most sound argument.

 

What people seem to forget is that Mr. CHaos himself gave Magnus the power to reach the Emperor, and Magnus took it like a fool, why in the world would Mr. Chaos do that though? That's why I'm saying, NAIVE.

[Epistolary Exander]

Magnus used the power of the warp offered him because he didnt know about the chaos gods. He only knew that were intelligent being in the warp. If the Emperor had told Magnus what he was meddling with he would never of done that. It seems to me that Emperor is at fault as much as Magnus's acts. The Emperor knew of Magnus's thirst for knowledge, he should of acted upon that & maybe then the heresy would of turned out differently.

[BrotherAtrox]

Magnus used the power of the warp offered him because he didnt know about the chaos gods. He only knew that were intelligent being in the warp. If the Emperor had told Magnus what he was meddling with he would never of done that. It seems to me that Emperor is at fault as much as Magnus's acts. The Emperor knew of Magnus's thirst for knowledge, he should of acted upon that & maybe then the heresy would of turned out differently.

 

But the Emperor did.

 

He told him he was dealing with stuff that was far beyond him. (Magnus didn't believe him because he was too arrogant.)

 

He told him, very explicitly, to stop doing just that. (Magnus disobeyed him because he was too arrogant.)

 

He did not listen.

 

What else is there to discuss?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

All the time while reading the bit in Collected Visions about the siege I couldn't help but think 'this would be quite different if the Emperor and his crew were free to fight', and that is Magnus's doing.

That's probably balanced by the lack of participation in the siege by the Emperor's Children.

there is no way that the absence of the Emperor, his Custodians and the Sisters of Silence are even close to balancing the Emperor's Children not partakng in the Siege.

to even suggest that is ridiculous.

There were at the time tens of thousands of Emperor's Children. I'm pretty sure there weren't tens of thousands of Custodes and Sisters. Don't forget that Astartes > Sisters, and that the EC summoned hundreds of daemons in addition to their own considerable warmaking ability. It is not ridiculous to suggest that if the EC had concentrated their forces on attacking the palace instead of torturing civilians the Siege might have gone differently.

 

Okay, i say this again, slower: To compare the absence of the Emperor Children's to the absennce of the Emperor and his guards is ridiculous. The Emperor and his guards are far more powerful then the EC in both martial ability and inspiration to the loyalists defenders.In a siege, overwhelming numbers only matter if you can successfully crack open that fortress, which never occured. the traitors broke through the Gates. until you do this, the numbers you have mean little, especially against a well led, inspired defense force. (for proof of this, look at any successful siege in the history of mankind. lots of boring siege weapon work followed by moments of insane amount of bloodshed once the walls have been breached)

 

that now repeated, I am agree that if the Emperor's Children had fought at the palace would have been different, but i also am saying that if the Emperor himself was manning the walls, repelling the traitors with his Primarchs at this side, then the siege would have gone differently. especially if the Sisters and the Emperor were there to directly confront the "hundreds of daemons".

and lets remember also that Custodes > Astartes > Sister > Daemons

 

WLK

[Gree]

Okay, i say this again, slower: To compare the absence of the Emperor Children's to the absennce of the Emperor and his guards is ridiculous. The Emperor and his guards are far more powerful then the EC in both martial ability and inspiration to the loyalists defenders.In a siege, overwhelming numbers only matter if you can successfully crack open that fortress, which never occured. the traitors broke through the Gates. until you do this, the numbers you have mean little, especially against a well led, inspired defense force. (for proof of this, look at any successful siege in the history of mankind. lots of boring siege weapon work followed by moments of insane amount of bloodshed once the walls have been breached)

 

Actually there was an old seige rule in the American army back in the civil war that you only attacked a fortress with 3-1 odds on your side. The Emperor's children's numbers could have at least kept up the pressure.

 

Meanwhile the Emperor was busied preparing for his attack on Horus twords the end anyway.

 

 

 

On the Rune Priest issue, it's blatently obvious that they were psykers in the same vein as the Thousand Sons. Wyrdmake even used his powers to fight Ahriman.

 

Bull. Bottom line. Magnus was warned multiple times to stop his sorcery, and he never did. No excuses.

 

And our Rune Priests truly are different, attempting to create a false dichotomy only shows you as naive as Magnus is.

 

the whole point of the nikea thing was to forbid psychic powers being used by Marines, so the wolves are heretics as Rune priests are psykers,

you can call it whatever you want it is and say how different it is, but.... warpstuff is warpstuff, hypocritic wolves, how are Rune priests different?

 

You will learn the nature of the wolves in "Prospero burns"... Even if you see them as hypocritical, it was the TS who first killed SW to save a library... and the wolves never made a deal with mr. 999 (Magnus did it twice and the first time even before HH for Emperor's sake!!!). Wolves may be unsophisticated (though not stupid) but their loyalty to the All-father has been proven again and again for more than 10000 years...

 

Actually Magnus ordered the Thousand Sons to not kill any Wolves and ordered them to restrain the Wolves instead.

[Ashe Darke]

Wasn't it more of a case of;

 

'He's dropped his shields, right I'm off'

 

'Wait daddy, we'll come too'

 

'Hmmm ok, you custodes stood in the corner, you're coming with me to. Let's go!'

 

I don't remember it ever being thoroughly planned, more of a seizing the opportunity situation.

[Gree]

Wasn't it more of a case of;

 

'He's dropped his shields, right I'm off'

 

'Wait daddy, we'll come too'

 

'Hmmm ok, you custodes stood in the corner, you're coming with me to. Let's go!'

 

I don't remember it ever being thoroughly planned, more of a seizing the opportunity situation.

 

 

In the older fluff he was waiting for thr right moment, none of this webway stuff.

[Ashe Darke]

The last thing I read was Collected Visions so that's the stuff that's floating about. Given the strong ties (bar Battle For The Abyss and Nemesis) between the HH books and Collected Visions I'm more inclined to take the more recent stuff as being truer to what they actually want the HH to be about. The older stuff was just written as a general background and while not necessarily designed to be the taken over by more fuller fluff later on, it wasn't the final say on the matter. Well that's my take on the different versions anyway.

 

If it's going on the older fluff is more accurate than older fluff then the HH never took place, the Emperor took to the throne because he was tired and the marines were a bunch of space thugs.

 

That said I don't see how mastering the Web Way was gonna save mankind so it's hardly a brilliant plan but it's added more depth to the story.

[Gree]

The last thing I read was Collected Visions so that's the stuff that's floating about. Given the strong ties (bar Battle For The Abyss and Nemesis) between the HH books and Collected Visions I'm more inclined to take the more recent stuff as being truer to what they actually want the HH to be about. The older stuff was just written as a general background and while not necessarily designed to be the taken over by more fuller fluff later on, it wasn't the final say on the matter. Well that's my take on the different versions anyway.

 

If it's going on the older fluff is more accurate than older fluff then the HH never took place, the Emperor took to the throne because he was tired and the marines were a bunch of space thugs.

 

That said I don't see how mastering the Web Way was gonna save mankind so it's hardly a brilliant plan but it's added more depth to the story.

 

I take the newer fluff as canon, but I'm just pointing out the possbility.

[Agamemnon42]

Magnus used the power of the warp offered him because he didnt know about the chaos gods. He only knew that were intelligent being in the warp. If the Emperor had told Magnus what he was meddling with he would never of done that. It seems to me that Emperor is at fault as much as Magnus's acts. The Emperor knew of Magnus's thirst for knowledge, he should of acted upon that & maybe then the heresy would of turned out differently.

 

But the Emperor did.

 

He told him he was dealing with stuff that was far beyond him. (Magnus didn't believe him because he was too arrogant.)

 

He told him, very explicitly, to stop doing just that. (Magnus disobeyed him because he was too arrogant.)

 

He did not listen.

 

What else is there to discuss?

If the Emperor had told him what was more powerful than him, and let him in on plans for the Golden Throne instead of needlessly classifying it like a CIA OP, then none of this :) would have gone down and Magnus could have fought off tzneeche without a blindfold.

 

Of course, the 'Imperial Truth' is a load of horse-:P anyway, and the Emperor is fundementally responsible for the Heresy anyway. If he had let Lorgar worship him as a warp god he never would have turned to chaos, if he had fought along side Angron instead of kidnapping him he wouldn't have turned traitor, if he had trusted Magnus from the beginning he never would have broken the throne, etc.

Admittedly, Fulgrim and Alpharius were their own damn faults.

[Ashe Darke]

Well that's the point. The Chaos Gods are devious and the Primarchs flawed, well most of them. And it's these flaws that were cleverly manipulated by the Gods and Horus to turn them against the Emperor.

 

Fulgrim's search for perfection doomed them by them modifying themselves with tainted stuff and that was a very subtle one, it's not like it was a Chaos God going 'join me', by the time they realised what was going on they were well and truly tainted.

 

The Alpha Legion's love subterfuge and manipulation saw them get involved in what they saw to be the biggest secret mission ever (depending on whether you believe the Cabal to be good or not) and potentially were tricked into fighting for the wrong side.

 

Horus's flaws were manipulated as well and it's arguable that he didn't really have much of a say in the matter as he was taken to the place on Davin, dying and in another realm where they were free to manipulate him as they pleased. There wasn't a big daemon saying 'join me'. The daemon came once he had already turned.

 

Magnus was supremely arrogant and even if the Emperor had gone into more detail, when Magnus confronted them they still would have manipulated him giving him a false sense of their true power causing him to underestimate them. The problem lay with Magnus's personality, his arrogance and his thirst for knowledge, not with the amount of information the Emperor dished out. Even if Magnus didn't seek them out they'd find a way to speak to him, subtle manipulation bringing him to a specific meeting point etc. Honestly I imagine if Magnus was told more he'd still end up meeting them, showing themselves to be weaker than him and and it would be be like;

 

'Really dad? These guys? I'm more powerful than them, yeah I'm pretty powerful, pretty damn awesome. You must be pretty weak dad if you think these guys are a threat. I bet I could master them and learn from them after all I am like as good as you, maybe even more so because I think I'm that awesome'

 

And there you have it, they've got him hooked. Manipulated him into dabbling by exploiting his own ego. His own ego probably also saw him to take the Emperor's words with a pinch of salt and he felt he was almost on a par with him strength wise. I did get the impression he wanted to surpass the Emperor in power and he was only gonna do that via dabbling into what the Emperor didn't. You can kinda see the problem lay within Magnus and the flaws were laid open for the Chaos Gods to play with. No amount of forewarning would have changed that, such was the strength of his personality.

 

The Primarchs are wise and normally wouldn't be susceptible to such manipulation and lapses in emotion normally. But this is Chaos Gods we're on about and I think the fact that the primarchs were able to be manipulated speaks volumes about the power, intellect and influence these Gods have. Some of course didn't need much persuading, Angron and Mortarion for example.

[Rain]

Your grammar makes my eyes bleed. But, I'll entertain it for the moment.

 

Look up false dichotomy, perhaps you will understand my previous point. Responding to an accusation of a false dichotomy with one isn't exactly the most sound argument.

 

What people seem to forget is that Mr. CHaos himself gave Magnus the power to reach the Emperor, and Magnus took it like a fool, why in the world would Mr. Chaos do that though? That's why I'm saying, NAIVE.

 

How the heck is it a false dichotomy? Ok here, let me break it down for you since you wanna pull the ol' logic out on us:

 

Major Premise: The Emperor banned all psykers

Minor Premise: Wolf Priests are psykers

Minor Premise: 1k Sons Librarians are psykers

Conclusion: The Emperor banned Wolf Priests and 1k Sons Libbies

 

Seriously, what can you possibly disagree with here? The point is that if Magnus's mistake was not listening to the Emperor following Nikea, then that same crime was committed by almost all of the legions including the Space Wolves! If his crime was using his powers to warn the Emperor and thereby destroying his psychic wards, then it was an accident as he had no idea what the Emperor was up to and had no way to know that his warning would do that.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Your grammar makes my eyes bleed. But, I'll entertain it for the moment.

 

Look up false dichotomy, perhaps you will understand my previous point. Responding to an accusation of a false dichotomy with one isn't exactly the most sound argument.

 

What people seem to forget is that Mr. CHaos himself gave Magnus the power to reach the Emperor, and Magnus took it like a fool, why in the world would Mr. Chaos do that though? That's why I'm saying, NAIVE.

 

 

Seriously, what can you possibly disagree with here? The point is that if Magnus's mistake was not listening to the Emperor following Nikea, then that same crime was committed by almost all of the legions including the Space Wolves! If his crime was using his powers to warn the Emperor and thereby destroying his psychic wards, then it was an accident as he had no idea what the Emperor was up to and had no way to know that his warning would do that.

 

Yeah but the other Legions did not send a daemon message straight at the Emperor did they? They might have still had librarians, but they did not practice SORCERY like Magnus did, did not get warned TWICE to stop mucking about with dangerous magicks. Those are on very different scales. That is how folks can disagree. Cannot speak on the false dichotomy, but having librarians is not the same deal as using sorcery. Going ten miles above the speed limit is not the same as smashing your highly illegal street racing car through the police stations front door to deliver a message...even if to warn them about the other guys doing highly illegal things.

Magnus messed up bad and he messed up hard.

And his lack of knowledge about the webway is not a valid excuse. The webway would not have been an issue if Magnus has JUST LISTENED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Magnus already had disobeyed a direct command from his liege lord and knew the consequences. Good intentions be damned, if your ancient progenitor warns you twice not to do X...DO NOT DO X!

 

It seems rather akin to saying

"I did not know the girl was going to be playing in the house when I played with my father's gun while drunk!"

"Did we not just warn you not to get drunk or play with firearms, and in fact told you the full weight of the law would be leveled against you if you did?

"Yeah ....but you shoulda warned me about the girl!"

"You were told not to something stupid! The house burning down and hurting someone should never have been an issue!"

 

His motivations might make it a bit more tragic, but its still criminally stupid. What more should the Big E have told him?

"Warp stuff bad, stop playing with it."

Magnus plays with it more.

"Ok, do this again and I will beat you with a stick!"

Magnus continues to play with fire...and got burned. Pity he lit the universes salvation on fire with it.

[Dark Mechanicum]

If you read what the Tsons are doing in the book, its not sorcery, they are using powers that Librarians use. Flashy fire and thunder, reading minds, predicting the future, protection, control. That isn't sorcery that is psyker.

 

Now to my favorite part of this argument: Emperor bans ALL Psyker use. Note the word ALL, he then says in front of EVERYONE at Nikea: If you disobey me and keep having psykers, you will face my wrath. So, when you have 5 other legions also backing up Magnus at Nikea, including I might add White Scars who are just like the Space Wolves in belief of their librarians being shamanistic. They tell the Emperor that we need these powers to fight off enemy powers. In disciple is strength. What do the Tsons teach: Disciple of oneself to keep your powers in check. Note their familiers which they all thought to be lesser warp entities were kept in control until Prospero when any psychic use was too much. Even Wyrdmake had a familier in the form of a wolf spirit and to preclude the argument about Fenris right here: too far from fenris to make a difference.

 

Magnus also tells why he wont use conventional methods to warn the Emperor. Time, astropathic messages could be blocked, misinterped, and take too damn long. Conventional travel is only if the Warp is going to let you through in time. At that point you have a reason for speed. Horus has fallen and lets make sure that EVERY legion that can go after him can. Not wait the couple of years to warn the emperor and have a fully realized enemy that could get everybody at that point. Even after all this you have several legions obeying the edicts of the great betrayer to get themselves ambushed because their was not advanced warning. If Magnus's warning had succeeded, He would have been a Hero, not condemned.