Magnus the Failure

[Ashe Darke]

Horus has fallen and lets make sure that EVERY legion that can go after him can. Not wait the couple of years to warn the emperor and have a fully realized enemy that could get everybody at that point. Even after all this you have several legions obeying the edicts of the great betrayer to get themselves ambushed because their was not advanced warning. If Magnus's warning had succeeded, He would have been a Hero, not condemned.

Well that's assuming the Emperor could eventually fix the damage Magnus did and that the Web Way was as important as the Emperor had said it was. The damage he did cause meant the Emperor could dedicate very little of his might to the Astronomicon so warp travel would not be easy and not long after Chaos got its teeth into Horus the warp started becoming more hectic so communications became harder.

 

Then there's still Legions that were corrupt at this point. Word Bearers obviously, Slaanesh had sewn the seeds for The Emperor's Children. A lot of the other legions who went bad were a bit iffy on the Emperor at this point and their allegiance was to the Warmaster as it was him who was leading the crusade, not the Emperor.

 

Even if the Emperor listened to the warnings it doesn't mean that the other Legions would have got the messages in time or that all of them would have stood against him. Let's say the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion etc all get the warning, they might not listen to the Emperor. Let's assume they do, then the few traitor legions get wiped. This requires some big ifs though. If they get the messages, and if they chose the Emperor, and that's for each legion. Next situation, the guys who go bad in the original time line do go bad. The Drop Site Massacre is avoided and the 3 legions either attack Horus properly or run away back to Terra. Probably they'd attack so that's 7 vs 3. All they would do is stall him and the Emperor would probably still be busy fixing Magnus's mess by the time Horus eventually got there. This has some other tangents which are whether the other loyal legions who Horus scattered to get out the way were warned in time. If they were told in time then yeah Horus would be boned but this is another bit set of ifs. My point is that listening to the warning isn't an automatic save-the-day event.

 

That said I don't know why the Emperor didn't listen to the warning or at least tell Malcador what was going on while he fixed things. Even if not all of the above 'ifs' come to happen at least take a chance at some of them happening.

[JEFF4i]

Your grammar makes my eyes bleed. But, I'll entertain it for the moment.

 

Look up false dichotomy, perhaps you will understand my previous point. Responding to an accusation of a false dichotomy with one isn't exactly the most sound argument.

 

What people seem to forget is that Mr. CHaos himself gave Magnus the power to reach the Emperor, and Magnus took it like a fool, why in the world would Mr. Chaos do that though? That's why I'm saying, NAIVE.

 

How the heck is it a false dichotomy? Ok here, let me break it down for you since you wanna pull the ol' logic out on us:

 

Major Premise: The Emperor banned all psykers

Minor Premise: Wolf Priests are psykers

Minor Premise: 1k Sons Librarians are psykers

Conclusion: The Emperor banned Wolf Priests and 1k Sons Libbies

 

Seriously, what can you possibly disagree with here? The point is that if Magnus's mistake was not listening to the Emperor following Nikea, then that same crime was committed by almost all of the legions including the Space Wolves! If his crime was using his powers to warn the Emperor and thereby destroying his psychic wards, then it was an accident as he had no idea what the Emperor was up to and had no way to know that his warning would do that.

 

The nature of psyker, and the nature of what one does when they venture into the Warp. It is vastly, vastly different.

 

By Thousand Sons logic, Navigators, the communicators, etc. are all the same as them. It isn't true. Do they all delve into the Warp? Yes. But what they do there, and why they do it, is vastly different. That's the point.

 

Finally, I'm ****ing sick of people saying, "Well Magnus didn't know." Boo freakin hoo, all he had to do was man up and do what he was told. But he couldn't. And that's why, one day, Russ will have his head. Because Magnus deserves no less.

[JEFF4i]

And this'll be my final post...

 

Magnus is the most powerful child in the galaxy. Yes, they all had their tendencies, but Magnus just couldn't get a spine. He was told not to do something, he did it. He was told again, he did it. At one point he showed the smallest amount of integrity by nearly accepting his fate at the hands of Russ, but he couldn't even do it then. Instead he runs away to the Eye of Terror, bastion of Chaos, to think about what went wrong. He just doesn't get it.

 

And that is why Magnus is the biggest failure in the Imperium, and the most useless of the primarchs. He can't face his father, he can't face his father's judgment, it's just all about running away, avoiding responsibility. He's a child, but not even a good one, and nothing more. Arrogant, ambitious, and incredibly powerful, and he thinks that it allows him to forsake humility, integrity, and loyalty.

[Son-of-Horus]

Which in truth were all the Primarchs ever war, they were proxie-emperors, made to be tools for him to use. He forged the best parts of himself, the single-mindedness, he forged into Perturabo, and this can be drawn to all the different Primarchs. He did not view them as Sons, nor as parts of himself, he viewed them as Generals forged from his own blood. And I believe had he been allowed to cultivate them himself they would have conquered the stars, but ultimately it was the simple human nature that forced everything aside. Of all the Primarchs, I believe that the Lion was the most like the Emperor.

 

Any reason for this? The HH books seem to suggest that Sanguinius was the closest to him.

 

 

Agreed. All of the literature and Horus himself note this.

[Magnus Thane]

Magnus used the power of the warp offered him because he didnt know about the chaos gods. He only knew that were intelligent being in the warp. If the Emperor had told Magnus what he was meddling with he would never of done that. It seems to me that Emperor is at fault as much as Magnus's acts. The Emperor knew of Magnus's thirst for knowledge, he should of acted upon that & maybe then the heresy would of turned out differently.

 

Agreed. And it's what annoys me the most in the HH. For the super perfect guy that the Emperor is as stated by fluff etc... he messes up A LOT of things.

I'd have done the exact same thing as Magnus. Granted it caused a mess but people make choices using the info at hand. Sure the Emperor forbade using the Warp but gave no reasons. Having Super Ultra Mega World War Kazillion break out tends to change ones priorities. If I see someone about to shoot a little girl, am I going to to take a detour of 20 meters to use the legal crossing or am I going to rush forth like crazy despite the risks? If i'm a coward I'll probably do nothing, if i'm overzealous and brave i'll rush forth and if i'm a bit dumb i'll take my sweet time and go over to the crossing.

[Ashe Darke]

It wasn't all about speed, it was also about showing how psychic powers are good to the Emperor and to the Imperium. That was a key factor in the decision for that method, more so than the speed of it in my opinion.

[Cosmic Archmage]

Your grammar makes my eyes bleed. But, I'll entertain it for the moment.

 

Look up false dichotomy, perhaps you will understand my previous point. Responding to an accusation of a false dichotomy with one isn't exactly the most sound argument.

 

What people seem to forget is that Mr. CHaos himself gave Magnus the power to reach the Emperor, and Magnus took it like a fool, why in the world would Mr. Chaos do that though? That's why I'm saying, NAIVE.

 

How the heck is it a false dichotomy? Ok here, let me break it down for you since you wanna pull the ol' logic out on us:

 

Major Premise: The Emperor banned all psykers

Minor Premise: Wolf Priests are psykers

Minor Premise: 1k Sons Librarians are psykers

Conclusion: The Emperor banned Wolf Priests and 1k Sons Libbies

 

Seriously, what can you possibly disagree with here? The point is that if Magnus's mistake was not listening to the Emperor following Nikea, then that same crime was committed by almost all of the legions including the Space Wolves! If his crime was using his powers to warn the Emperor and thereby destroying his psychic wards, then it was an accident as he had no idea what the Emperor was up to and had no way to know that his warning would do that.

 

The nature of psyker, and the nature of what one does when they venture into the Warp. It is vastly, vastly different.

 

By Thousand Sons logic, Navigators, the communicators, etc. are all the same as them. It isn't true. Do they all delve into the Warp? Yes. But what they do there, and why they do it, is vastly different. That's the point.

 

Finally, I'm ****ing sick of people saying, "Well Magnus didn't know." Boo freakin hoo, all he had to do was man up and do what he was told. But he couldn't. And that's why, one day, Russ will have his head. Because Magnus deserves no less.

 

Your biased reasoning to defend the Space Wolves rune priest is, well pretty dumb. Wyrdmake himself says in the book that he doesn't believe he uses the warp to use his psychic power, but the cycle of Fenris. Just because he is ignorant doesn't mean he is less of an outlaw for it.

 

And finally, your whole argument on the matter makes me wonder if you really read the book, because if you did, it just seems that you willingly ignored everything that makes Magnus story's a tragedy.

[randian]

And that's why, one day, Russ will have his head. Because Magnus deserves no less.

How, pray tell, could Russ possibly accomplish that? Magnus is no mere greater daemon, he's a virtual demigod of the Warp.

 

Putting aside Magnus' sheer power, how could Russ avoid mutation, corruption, or death just from standing on the Planet of the Sorcerers? There's a reason why you don't assault Chaos planets.

 

For that matter, how could he have avoided those things in the intervening thousands of years he's been in the Eye preceding this hypothetical encounter? There are more threats in the Eye than getting your head bashed in by a stray daemon: warp storms, warp-tainted food and water (Russ has to eat right?), warp taint from standing in certain areas, like the lair of that Chaos Champion he just killed, looking at the wrong symbols or glyphs, warp gates spewing Chaos, etc. So many ways to be exposed, even inadvertently, to raw Chaos or its derivatives, and so few ways for somebody like Russ, who isn't a psyker or sorcerer, to defend against it.

 

If Russ is magically not dead, he's certainly far too mutated to ever return to the Imperium. He would have been under constant threat in any case. A Primarch can hardly remain anonymous and he's the sort of being every Chaos Champion in the Eye would want to take down. If he lived any length of time the rumors and innuendo regarding his exploits would have become legendary. That we have no information on Russ could mean Games Workshop has simply been lazy generating fluff, or it could mean Russ showed up and promptly died, leaving no legend to remember him by.

[ProtoClone]

I don't think the Emperor messed anything up. I don't think he made a single mistake. Through out this whole series it has been repeated "what will the engineered soldiers do when there is nothing left to bring to order"?

The Emperor knew he could not make killers and then leave them to sit when it was over. He knew from the beginning what he had to do when he started down this path...He had to make sure he influenced a civil war but not let people know he had wanted this to happen. He knew if he made himself into a martyr during this his subjects would keep fighting in his name for years to come because soldiers like the SM would never let people forget. He knew then he would eventually become a god thus the need to wipe out all other religions. The protagonist needed his antagonist and he created that in Horus. Thus the never ending war between Good Vs. Evil/Law Vs. Order/Light Vs. Dark...etc would continue but with himself as the beacon of goodness in the universe.

 

The Emperor is the biggest traitor of them all because he knew it could happen and did nothing to stop it but in fact encouraged it for the sake of vanity.

[JEFF4i]

Magnus' story is a tragedy for those who find themselves similar to Magnus, I'm not. To me, he's a coward, a fool, and worst of all, a heretic.

 

Russ tainted by the warp? Apparently you haven't read enough on the Wolves of Fenris, let alone their Primarch. You bet your bottom dollar Russ could take him, in the Eye, anywhere, he's been hunting him for 10 thousand years, and will for 10 thousand times that. See, that's the difference, Russ does what his father tells him out of humility to what the Emperor is, and to what he himself is.

 

Magnus' story is a tragedy. But Magnus misunderstands what loyalty is. A great source of this is Martin Luther Ling Jr., in fact. He spoke that if you were to break the law, you should do so knowing that there will be consequences, and not being afraid of them. That is what makes a questionable action righteous. Magnus ran. I'll tell you, when he said that the fate coming to him was his to endure, his to take, I actually respected the character a huge amount. It showed integrity. But he just couldn't do it. That's the story of Magnus. It's not good intentions, it's of him wanting to be good, but never having the conviction to see it through.

 

So perhaps that is the tragedy of Magnus, that he perhaps has a heart of a "good" person, but doesn't have the conviction to be one.

[Candleshoes]

Quick clarification about the snippets of which Primarch was closest or most like the Emperor.

 

Horus himself says of all the Primarchs, Sanguinus inherited his father's soul.

[Gree]

Russ tainted by the warp? Apparently you haven't read enough on the Wolves of Fenris, let alone their Primarch. You bet your bottom dollar Russ could take him, in the Eye, anywhere, he's been hunting him for 10 thousand years, and will for 10 thousand times that.

 

Actually this time Magnus is not going to willingly sabotage his own defenses, kill his own followers and stand by doing nothing most of the time while Russ attacks his new homeworld. :lol:

 

Not to mention Magnus does not even have a physical body anymore.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Russ tainted by the warp? Apparently you haven't read enough on the Wolves of Fenris, let alone their Primarch. You bet your bottom dollar Russ could take him, in the Eye, anywhere, he's been hunting him for 10 thousand years, and will for 10 thousand times that.

 

Actually this time Magnus is not going to willingly sabotage his own defenses, kill his own followers and stand by doing nothing most of the time while Russ attacks his new homeworld. :rolleyes:

 

Not to mention Magnus does not even have a physical body anymore.

 

his body was physical enough for Ragnar to thrust the Spear of Russ into his eye.

 

WLK

[ProtoClone]

Magnus' story is a tragedy for those who find themselves similar to Magnus, I'm not. To me, he's a coward, a fool, and worst of all, a heretic.

 

Russ tainted by the warp? Apparently you haven't read enough on the Wolves of Fenris, let alone their Primarch. You bet your bottom dollar Russ could take him, in the Eye, anywhere, he's been hunting him for 10 thousand years, and will for 10 thousand times that. See, that's the difference, Russ does what his father tells him out of humility to what the Emperor is, and to what he himself is.

 

Magnus' story is a tragedy. But Magnus misunderstands what loyalty is. A great source of this is Martin Luther Ling Jr., in fact. He spoke that if you were to break the law, you should do so knowing that there will be consequences, and not being afraid of them. That is what makes a questionable action righteous. Magnus ran. I'll tell you, when he said that the fate coming to him was his to endure, his to take, I actually respected the character a huge amount. It showed integrity. But he just couldn't do it. That's the story of Magnus. It's not good intentions, it's of him wanting to be good, but never having the conviction to see it through.

 

So perhaps that is the tragedy of Magnus, that he perhaps has a heart of a "good" person, but doesn't have the conviction to be one.

 

I don't remember reading Russ was hunting Magnus all this time?

 

Plus SW are hard to be tempted by chaos because chaos does not have much to offer them.

 

Magnus' heart was in the right place but his ham fisted actions always failed. If he had spent a little more time realizing the world around him and not how awesome he is he would've avoided this whole mess.

[Gree]

Russ tainted by the warp? Apparently you haven't read enough on the Wolves of Fenris, let alone their Primarch. You bet your bottom dollar Russ could take him, in the Eye, anywhere, he's been hunting him for 10 thousand years, and will for 10 thousand times that.

 

Actually this time Magnus is not going to willingly sabotage his own defenses, kill his own followers and stand by doing nothing most of the time while Russ attacks his new homeworld. :rolleyes:

 

Not to mention Magnus does not even have a physical body anymore.

 

his body was physical enough for Ragnar to thrust the Spear of Russ into his eye.

 

WLK

 

Which is changed by the fact that now Magnus apperantly has a body of light. Remmeber, the Ragnar books were written before the Heresy novels.

 

Regardless, it does not change the fact that this time Magnus won't be handing Russ a huge set of advantages.

[JEFF4i]

Fine, Russ will hand the Emperor Magnus' non-corporeal head. ^_^

[Gree]

Fine, Russ will hand the Emperor Magnus' non-corporeal head. :)

 

Magnus will ;) .

[Emperor's Scourge]

No one seems to ever appreciate what the Council of Nikaea actually meant for the 1K Sons. They were mostly, if not all, psykers. Their primarch was a psyker. They fought the entire Crusade using their abilities.

 

For the Emperor to lure them into an ambush and order them to just forget everything they've been doing for the last two hundred years is borderline madness. Most assuredly an act of utter idiocy. Its like ordering the other Legions to stop using their right arms.

 

"I gave you these powers. I showed you how to use them. I let you use them for most of the Crusade, but now...nope. No more mind powers guys. Effective immediately."

 

Now, I have a theory that he did all that to cut down on ambient Warp activity in the galaxy while he was working on his webway, but mentioning that might have been a good idea...at least to Magnus. Who was the linchpin of his entire plan for the Golden Throne.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Plus SW are hard to be tempted by chaos because chaos does not have much to offer them.

 

yea, cause its not like the Wolves arent tempted by bloodlust and battle (khorne), fierce cunning (tzeentch) or glory and pride (slaanesh)...nothing at all to tempt.

 

WLK

[Ashe Darke]

Now, I have a theory that he did all that to cut down on ambient Warp activity in the galaxy while he was working on his webway, but mentioning that might have been a good idea...at least to Magnus. Who was the linchpin of his entire plan for the Golden Throne.

Psychic shockwaves generally are felt in the material realm so real life distances are used. He wouldn't have noticed anything all the way back at Terra.

 

The clouding that came later on was due to daemons getting excited and wanting Horus to push on his attack but not doing as they wanted. They got all agitated and the warp became more unstable and cloudy etc.

[Hfran Morkai]

I think people are getting a little confused here.

 

The council of Nikea banned psychic practices, however the Emperor stated it was not a cull, they were not to learn more about psychic abilities or practice them, which we know the Thousand Sons were doing quite happily, nowhere that I remember does it state the Rune Priests using their psychic talents, they might have but I have lent my copy of the book out. If the Rune Priests were using their psychic powers I will be pretty PO'd, even though they believe their abilities to be different, I'm sure the Emperor would have had words with them.

 

I have a feeling the aim of the council was to prevent new psykers being trained, for completely blocking psychic abilities just doesn't happen.

 

If you're like me a Rune Priest is more than a psyker, he is a keeper of lore within the Legion, something that does not require psychic talents being used, simply removing them from the Chapter was not an option, nor was restoring them to humble battle-brothers.

 

And with regards to a comment on the second page regarding a statement of mine, yes I would expect the Space Wolves to listen to their Primarch, even if it were to result in their doom. Anything else is treason and would be punishable by death for disobeying strict orders.

[Emperor's Scourge]

Rune Priests are psykers man. Whether they think they are or not. As for the keepers of lore thing...yeah sounds like a Librarian's job in any other Legion/Chapter.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Rune Priests are psykers man. Whether they think they are or not. As for the keepers of lore thing...yeah sounds like a Librarian's job in any other Legion/Chapter.

 

Good job for re-establishing what we already know.

 

What i am taking from the Council of Nikea, as there hasnt been alot about it till now, is that th decision was made to disband the Legions Librarian program and redeploy the psykers to their original roles in the Legions.

 

The Rune Priests of the Space Wolves have halted the use of their abilities, but retain their role of the lore keepers of the Legion. What this means to those who dont understand, or are chose to be willfully ignorant, is that the Space Wolves Rune Priests (being based on the culture of their home world) are also historians of the Wolves, or more accurately in my opinion, bards.

The Sorcerers of the Thousand Sons continue their studies and dieregard the edicts of the Council. This is the difference between the two of them.

 

WLK

[Raulmichile]

But the Rune Priest in the novel uses his powers in battle. He maybe stopped learning new tricks but he used them after all. I think this Nikea edict needs fluff clarification.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

But the Rune Priest in the novel uses his powers in battle. He maybe stopped learning new tricks but he used them after all. I think this Nikea edict needs fluff clarification.

 

Again, i havent read the new book, and my opinion is based on all prior fluff. i have ordered the book, but to be honest, anything written by Graham McNeil isnt exactly what i would call good material...he is too hit and miss.

I am hoping when a talented author gets ahold of the Council of Nikea we will have some answers, rather then more questions.

 

WLK