Magnus the Failure

[Gree]

And with regards to a comment on the second page regarding a statement of mine, yes I would expect the Space Wolves to listen to their Primarch, even if it were to result in their doom. Anything else is treason and would be punishable by death for disobeying strict orders.

 

I honestly doubt that, a legion that came from Fenris, a place that is renowned for their independant warriors and martial pride, I honestly can't see the Wolves standing by and doing nothing, even if Russ ordered it.

 

In fact Bulvye even tries to imagine Fenrisians doing nothing in the face of invasion in Wolf at the Door, he's utterly horrifed at the idea.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

And with regards to a comment on the second page regarding a statement of mine, yes I would expect the Space Wolves to listen to their Primarch, even if it were to result in their doom. Anything else is treason and would be punishable by death for disobeying strict orders.

 

I honestly doubt that, a legion that came from Fenris, a place that is renowned for their independant warriors and martial pride, I honestly can't see the Wolves standing by and doing nothing, even if Russ ordered it.

 

In fact Bulvye even tries to imagine Fenrisians doing nothing in the face of invasion in Wolf at the Door, he's utterly horrifed at the idea.

 

As you say, a legion that came from Fenris will be horrified at doing nothing in a invasion.

They also would be horrified at defying their oaths to their chieftains.

 

WLK

[Gree]

As you say, a legion that came from Fenris will be horrified at doing nothing in a invasion.

They also would be horrified at defying their oaths to their chieftains.

 

WLK

 

Yet at the same time we have precedents of Space Wolves ignoring authority. Lukas is the best example but he is just the emboidment.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

As you say, a legion that came from Fenris will be horrified at doing nothing in a invasion.

They also would be horrified at defying their oaths to their chieftains.

 

WLK

 

Yet at the same time we have precedents of Space Wolves ignoring authority. Lukas is the best example but he is just the emboidment.

 

Lukas is a joke.

and defying a Wolf Lord is one thing, defying a Primarch is *slightly* more severe.

 

WLK

[ProtoClone]

Plus SW are hard to be tempted by chaos because chaos does not have much to offer them.

 

yea, cause its not like the Wolves arent tempted by bloodlust and battle (khorne), fierce cunning (tzeentch) or glory and pride (slaanesh)...nothing at all to tempt.

 

WLK

 

I actually said hard to tempt not impossible. They have glory in battle in the service of the Emperor and their brothers...What more can be offered that they don't already have. But like I said, it is hard to tempt but not impossible.

[Dark Mechanicum]

You would think that Astartes wouldn't attack their brother Space Marines as well, but once again the Space Wolves are so bloodthirsty that when the Tsons have gotten ahead and defeated the enemy at one point, the Space Wolves dont stop and go "Aha, they got it lets go after something else". No instead they go to attack the Tsons because they got there first and were in the way. So great job of control there and all that.

 

On the Council of Nikea, its said to dismantle and put all librarians as normal battle brothers, they LOST their titles within the legion and their original purpose. So Russ disobeyed the All-father by not putting his Rune Priests back as battle brothers. The Big Daddy ordered it and yet they didn't.

 

And Wyrdmake does use his powers but since they believe they are natural the Council doesn't affect them.

[Mr. Sandbot]

But the Rune Priest in the novel uses his powers in battle. He maybe stopped learning new tricks but he used them after all. I think this Nikea edict needs fluff clarification.

 

Again, i havent read the new book, and my opinion is based on all prior fluff. i have ordered the book, but to be honest, anything written by Graham McNeil isnt exactly what i would call good material...he is too hit and miss.

I am hoping when a talented author gets ahold of the Council of Nikea we will have some answers, rather then more questions.

 

WLK

I agree about McNeil. Look at the bright side though, Dan Abnett will be handling the wolves.

 

Until then, I feel like we can't properly say how obedient or disobedient the wolves were to the edicts of Nikea.

 

I actually said hard to tempt not impossible. They have glory in battle in the service of the Emperor and their brothers...What more can be offered that they don't already have. But like I said, it is hard to tempt but not impossible.

 

ex. the traitor wolves during the fall of Wolf of Fenris

 

 

Currently, it is also uncertain of why Magnus suddenly leapt to his Sons' defense and immediately swore himself to Tzeentch afterward. The book never really states a reason. We can only assume he just couldn't take it anymore, cracked, called for help from Tzeentch, was saved, etc we all know the story etc.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@mr. sandbot: i cannot express just how excited i was when i heard about an author like Abnett handling my beloved Wolves. I have high hopes that he will both answer some of the loose threads left by McNeil as well as drop completely new elements into this debate. The hardest part i have had with this is the first delay of the book, to coincide with A Thousand Sons, and then the truely sad health delay to the book. I know the wait will be worth it, but at the same time, i am aggreviated that only one side of this has been revealed and people are treating it as gospel...makes me a very impatient Son of Russ.

 

WLK

[Hfran Morkai]

I agree about McNeil. Look at the bright side though, Dan Abnett will be handling the wolves.

 

You mean the guy who said IIRC that he doesn't like the Space Wolves? I'm just hoping he can leave personal bias out of it and be the professional we know him to be, playing on the tragedy of the Wolves obeying orders from higher up.

 

Which is another theory to suggest why the Wolves loathe authority, they were mislead by the Emperor's 2IC, a pretty nasty shock if you ask me, which would likely result in contempt for those offered authority unless it is earnt in their eyes.

 

Disobeying the Primarch is a bad idea, it marks you out as treacherous scum I believe the Wolves would have respected Russ enough to obey such an order should it be issued, though that is not the point in case, it never was and with Russ' love of war it is unlikely he would ever issue such an order to stand down.

 

Can someone cite the use of powers by the Rune Priests please? If it's the part when Ahriman pulls Wyrdmake from his body I feel it is a moot point, he has to fight the foul sorcerer using his own means.

 

But hopefully Prospero Burns will provide us with the other side of the story, informing us of the actions of the Space Wolf Legion and when used in conjunction with A Thousand Sons provide a more complete picture, though we all know the galaxy is shrouded in mystery and secrets, allowing us to draw our own conclusions.

 

At the end of the day: Horus was the worst traitor, everyone else made tragic mistakes and were mislead/deceived, including the Loyalist Legions

[Gree]

and defying a Wolf Lord is one thing, defying a Primarch is *slightly* more severe.

 

WLK

 

Tell that to Loken, Garro , Tarvitz or Varren.

 

Disobeying the Primarch is a bad idea, it marks you out as treacherous scum

 

Loken and Garro are treacherous scum?

 

I believe the Wolves would have respected Russ enough to obey such an order should it be issued, though that is not the point in case, it never was and with Russ' love of war it is unlikely he would ever issue such an order to stand down.

 

It's called a hypothetical scenerio for a reason.

 

Can someone cite the use of powers by the Rune Priests please? If it's the part when Ahriman pulls Wyrdmake from his body I feel it is a moot point, he has to fight the foul sorcerer using his own means.

 

 

No, if he was truly loyal to the Emperor's will he would have not used those powers. After all, the Emperor himself said that psyhic powers were not to be used by the Astartes and after all nobody knows better than the Emperor.

[Magnus Thane]

Funny thing is in about 5-10 years other pieces of fluff will pop up and this mess will get even more subjective! LOL

[Hfran Morkai]

Disobeying the Primarch is a bad idea, it marks you out as treacherous scum

 

Loken and Garro are treacherous scum?

 

To their Primarchs, yes they would be. However to the Imperium they are not. It's the whole point of the 30-40K universe, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? The lines are blurred but you cannot deny their treason to their Primarch.

 

I believe the Wolves would have respected Russ enough to obey such an order should it be issued, though that is not the point in case, it never was and with Russ' love of war it is unlikely he would ever issue such an order to stand down.

 

It's called a hypothetical scenerio for a reason.

 

Working with hypothetical scenarios is dangerous, it's why scientists attempt to avoid them like the plague. You cannot say what would happen, only predict, there is no certainty, and as said I would be disappointed if the Wolves were using psychic powers and I would also be disappointed if they disobeyed their Primarch whilst he was acting out of loyalty to his own master.

 

 

Can someone cite the use of powers by the Rune Priests please? If it's the part when Ahriman pulls Wyrdmake from his body I feel it is a moot point, he has to fight the foul sorcerer using his own means.

 

 

No, if he was truly loyal to the Emperor's will he would have not used those powers. After all, the Emperor himself said that psyhic powers were not to be used by the Astartes and after all nobody knows better than the Emperor.

You have me there, though I'm fairly certain somewhere it'll be explained as the ends justifying the means. The Thousand Sons had to be crippled, a Legion of psykers was too dangerous. I imagine not using an ability you have learnt to be quite difficult when the fate of your Brothers is in the balance, this is true for both the Wolves and the Thousand Sons might I point out before you bring that up.

 

And what I took from the Council of Nikea was no more psykers were to be trained, though disbanding those already taught would be difficult without execution. Though knowing my mind and it's lack of capacity for fiction right now this isn't the case.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@gree: if either Loken, Varren or Garro were Wolves i would have a long talk with them of loyalties...but my Primarch never had such issues with his soldiers. he knew how to lead his men...

 

Loken was always a Mary Sue, who apparently survives titan stomps, viral bombs and abbadon given beatings by sheer "Author Saving Throw".

Garro was a Dusk Raider first if i remember rightly, whose loyalty ultimately with the Emperor before the Death Guard.

Varren's background has been changed (as he was originally part of the Astarts force that sieze the Eisenstein and flee the massacre...)so having him remain loyal was never a question. Mabe we'll luck out and see a book into the World Eaters and learn as to wh this occured one day.

 

WLK

[Piousservant]

Which is another theory to suggest why the Wolves loathe authority, they were mislead by the Emperor's 2IC, a pretty nasty shock if you ask me, which would likely result in contempt for those offered authority unless it is earnt in their eyes.

 

Disobeying the Primarch is a bad idea, it marks you out as treacherous scum I believe the Wolves would have respected Russ enough to obey such an order should it be issued, though that is not the point in case, it never was and with Russ' love of war it is unlikely he would ever issue such an order to stand down.

 

That's a bit of a cop-out. Russ can't be that stupid.He willfully ignored the Emperors orders to return Magnus to Terra and instead launched an all-out offensive on Prospero. It's what he wanted and the goading of Horus and Constantin (apparently...) really appears to be little more than an excuse. You can't blame Horus for misling Russ when Russ had already had his orders from the Emperor. He heard from Horus what we wanted to hear and then So considering that Russ disobeyed his orders from the Emperor himself as well, I don't think Wolves have that strong a moral high ground for arguing about following orders...

 

Imagine if Russ had done as the Emperor commanded and returned Magnus to Terra. The Sons may not have turned and the Emperor may have been able to save Magnus - not only would there have been one less traitor Legion but the Wolves and the Sons would have been two extra loyalist Legions on Terra to fight against Horus...

[Hfran Morkai]

And I have heard different stories, tales that Horus recieved the orders for the capture of Magnus and twisted them, changing them from a capture mission to a mission to destroy the Thousand Sons, another one is that he overrode the orders Russ received from the Emperor and as the Emperor was busy Russ was unable to confirm the change in orders. I'm unsure of the origins but Prospero Burns will give us the details on where the orders came from and what they were. Until then I think it's unfair to say Russ was disobeying orders with absolute certainty. I believe he was following the orders of the Warmaster, the only person higher than him was the Emperor, chain of command and all that malarkey. If you recieve a set of orders from the highest echelons of command you carry them out until you receive new orders from somewhere above your own station. Russ wasn't stupid at all, he put his faith into the system of command, there had to be a good reason for the Emperor to make Horus Warmaster.

 

I think you forget that Magnus made a pact with Tzeentch, there was no way to save him, he had caused the doom of his Legion by bargaining with something he didn't understand.

[Piousservant]

Prospero Burns will hopefully explain more. But IIRC the end of False Gods suggests that Russ received his orders direct from the Emperor but that Horus then talks to him and drops a few hints to goad Russ into attacking.

 

Oh I don't forget - in that respect Russ was played as well. To be fair Magnus was unwittingly snared by Tzeentch - his naivity (and, ironically, ignorance of the true nature of the warp creatures he encountered) meant he did not appreciate what he was dealing with.

[Hfran Morkai]

I am well aware that Russ was deceived too.

 

It's what makes the whole fiasco of the Heresy such a fascinating thing. Traitors believing they are still loyal to the Imperium and Loyalists carrying out acts of treason without knowing it.

 

There are no hard and fast answers, which is what makes it so enjoyable, everyone made their own mistakes.

 

Legions were lured away from where they were needed (Ultramarines)

One Legion worshiped the Emperor (Word Bearers)

Pacts were made with cruel and sentient beings (Thousand Sons)

A Legion was set upon another Legion, with either the order to kill or a furious bloodlust (Space Wolves)

 

Those are just four of the mistakes that various Legions made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, no-one is exempt from blame which is why I stand by my earlier statement that Horus was the Greatest Traitor and that was more because of the power he held, he too was mislead by the forces of Chaos.

[Hyperion]

The bit where the Wolves are heading towards the Library and the Sons are in the way - I got the strong impression that the Wolves were playing on their "we're beserkers, grr" image (like Russ does), but were actually under orders from Russ to provoke the fight with the Sons, so they would use their sorcery in the open. This would allow Russ to denounce them.

 

With regard to the Rune Priests using psychic powers, I think there may be a distinct difference between the Wolves and all other marines. Taking into account the "no wolves on Fenris" (which I believe indicates they are devolved originally settlers with the canis helix), failure of SW successors (which means the Wolves geneseed only works in combination with the canis helix - but this raises questions about the Terran Space Wolves), psychic protection from Fenrisian wolf tail totems and pelts (which some believe works on the ork "I think it works, therefore it does" principle, but I think the protection is inherent in the pelt itself), the presence of Fenrisian wolves in the warp (which would also support them being devolved humans) - I think the original settlers of Fenris altered their genetics to be less at risk from the warp. We know that the 13th Company survived uncorrupted in the Eye, as did their Fenrisian wolves, so the canis helix confers protection from chaos. Given the warp storms during Old Night it would make sense that the Fenrisians may have to protect themselves from warp predators.

 

This would mean that the Wolves really are uncorruptible by chaos, and Fenrisian pelts really do provide psychic protection. When you apply this to the Rune Priests, it suggests that their view that they get their powers "from Fenris" may be somewhat true - they get protection because of the genetics of the Fenrisians.

 

If this is true then if you're a Rune Priest you'd be very suspicious of any Librarian using psychic powers, because you'd know they didn't have your inherent protection from corruption.

[Gree]

Working with hypothetical scenarios is dangerous, it's why scientists attempt to avoid them like the plague. You cannot say what would happen, only predict, there is no certainty, and as said I would be disappointed if the Wolves were using psychic powers and I would also be disappointed if they disobeyed their Primarch whilst he was acting out of loyalty to his own master.

 

Working with hypothetical scenerions is dangerous? Man, I must risk my life and limb daily then. :mellow:

 

You have me there, though I'm fairly certain somewhere it'll be explained as the ends justifying the means. The Thousand Sons had to be crippled, a Legion of psykers was too dangerous. I imagine not using an ability you have learnt to be quite difficult when the fate of your Brothers is in the balance, this is true for both the Wolves and the Thousand Sons might I point out before you bring that up.

 

And what I took from the Council of Nikea was no more psykers were to be trained, though disbanding those already taught would be difficult without execution. Though knowing my mind and it's lack of capacity for fiction right now this isn't the case.

 

I thought the whole point of Nikea that the Emperor was wrong. Librarians worked.

 

@gree: if either Loken, Varren or Garro were Wolves i would have a long talk with them of loyalties...but my Primarch never had such issues with his soldiers. he knew how to lead his men...

 

So being loyal to the Emperor is a bad thing?

 

I think you forget that Magnus made a pact with Tzeentch, there was no way to save him, he had caused the doom of his Legion by bargaining with something he didn't understand.

 

Are you saying Tzeentch>Emperor? That the Emperor could not save Magnus? The same Emperor who fought off all four gods while on the Golden Throne to protect humanity?

 

The bit where the Wolves are heading towards the Library and the Sons are in the way - I got the strong impression that the Wolves were playing on their "we're beserkers, grr" image (like Russ does), but were actually under orders from Russ to provoke the fight with the Sons, so they would use their sorcery in the open. This would allow Russ to denounce them.

 

With regard to the Rune Priests using psychic powers, I think there may be a distinct difference between the Wolves and all other marines. Taking into account the "no wolves on Fenris" (which I believe indicates they are devolved originally settlers with the canis helix), failure of SW successors (which means the Wolves geneseed only works in combination with the canis helix - but this raises questions about the Terran Space Wolves), psychic protection from Fenrisian wolf tail totems and pelts (which some believe works on the ork "I think it works, therefore it does" principle, but I think the protection is inherent in the pelt itself), the presence of Fenrisian wolves in the warp (which would also support them being devolved humans) - I think the original settlers of Fenris altered their genetics to be less at risk from the warp. We know that the 13th Company survived uncorrupted in the Eye, as did their Fenrisian wolves, so the canis helix confers protection from chaos. Given the warp storms during Old Night it would make sense that the Fenrisians may have to protect themselves from warp predators.

 

This would mean that the Wolves really are uncorruptible by chaos, and Fenrisian pelts really do provide psychic protection. When you apply this to the Rune Priests, it suggests that their view that they get their powers "from Fenris" may be somewhat true - they get protection because of the genetics of the Fenrisians.

 

If this is true then if you're a Rune Priest you'd be very suspicious of any Librarian using psychic powers, because you'd know they didn't have your inherent protection from corruption.

 

The Wolves are hardly uncooruptible by Chaos. Only the Grey Knights are 100% immune from Chaos. That's the whole point of the Grey Knights.

[mob16151]

I really enjoyed 1000 Sons. It's one of McNeals better efforts IMO. As a side note was anyone else intrigued by the notion that

 

 

That the Emperor and Magnus had never been out of contact with each other even after the Primarchs were scattered?

 

[randian]

Currently, it is also uncertain of why Magnus suddenly leapt to his Sons' defense and immediately swore himself to Tzeentch afterward. The book never really states a reason.

My interpretation is he swore himself to Tzeentch before he entered the combat. Immediately before Magnus leaps into combat there is a massive energy burst and white light from his pyramid. I assume that's Tzeentch powering Magnus up for his fight with Russ. Too bad that wasn't enough to defeat Russ, probably intentionally so.

 

There is an interesting point of comparison between this and Mortarion's Death Guard. The Death Guard were fully corrupted from the moment Mortarion promised their service to Nurgle (they immediately exited the warp as Plague Marines), but the Thousand Sons were still loyal upon arriving on the Planet of the Sorcerers.

 

I wonder why, if Tzeentch can make Magnus powerful enough to breach the walls of the webway, Tzeentch doesn't do it himself earlier. Also, from the description of Magnus entry into the webway, his entrance point is nowhere near the Imperial palace. Does that mean the whole webway is now overrun with daemons, not just the area near Terra?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Interesting point: Do the Space Wolves have a Librarium?

 

Because that is what is ordered dismantled.

[c-wrex]

Hmm... Maybe what we should be considering here on page 6 is not if we should be hating Magnus, but if we should feel sympathy for the brave warriors of his legion?

 

The Thousand Sons themselves. They were from the very beginning plagued with mutation and gene seed difficulties. They suffered countless cases of mutation and scorn from every corner of the growing Imperium for a problem that was not their fault (it technically was the Emprah's for making a faulty gene-seed, but I digress), and hated by many of their brother legions for things that they had no control over. Yet they still fought valiantly and won their share of the Crusade's victories.

 

Ok, so they fought and won with questionable means. Where did they get those means, and how did they get saved anyway? From Magnus himself. Magnus saved his legion. Well, at least he thought he did. After having read A Thousand Sons, I am of the opinion that Magnus acted out of what he thought was genuine concern, with his urge for more knowledge a subconscious desire. H did save his legion from the terrible prolems of their gene-seed, and they sure were terrible problems. Can you just imagine watching a brave man succumbing to wild, uncontrollable changes in their genetic structure, in the course of seconds? Awful...

 

So, Magnus rescued them from mutation, and taught his men how to utilize the incredible power they had locked inside them, and to utilize their hidden potential to make up for their crippling shortage of numbers (Actually, hearing the tales of how few the Sons were in number, and knowing the line about the Salamanders being the smallest legion, it makes me seriously wonder about just how small my favorite legion really was. PM me if you have any ideas.). Using their natural talents combined with the best source of instruction and education on the subject in human controlled space to make up for their smaller fighting force seems a very rational, highly efficient scheme for success.

 

 

At the Council of Nikeae (I don't know how to spell it right), Magnus and his senior commanders were drawn forth, chastised, publicly humiliated, and embarrassed beyond rational thought, by the very man who was responsible for your conditions in the first place.

 

How would you react?

[Hfran Morkai]

Working with hypothetical scenerions is dangerous? Man, I must risk my life and limb daily then. :)

 

Fine then, working with hypotheticals in the 30th/40th Millenium is dangerous, along with the sciences in modern days. Happy?

 

I thought the whole point of Nikea that the Emperor was wrong. Librarians worked.

 

He might well have been wrong, but being supreme ruler his word was law.

 

So being loyal to the Emperor is a bad thing?

 

Loyalty to the Emperor should override any loyalty to their Primarch, though they would be closer with the said Primarch. Loyalty should work like thus: Individual<Squad

<Company<Legion/Primarch<Emperor, so being loyal to the Emperor is not bad at all, but they were traitors in their own way, though traitors of traitors which is justified. Point is Russ was always loyal, though some of his actions may not have been. Magnus was loyal until Prospero was sacked and he reached the end of his tether and fought Russ. But good intentions stand for nothing in the 30th Millenium.

 

Are you saying Tzeentch>Emperor? That the Emperor could not save Magnus? The same Emperor who fought off all four gods while on the Golden Throne to protect humanity?

 

Yes I am, the entire Heresy was brought around due to the manipulations of Chaos, something the Emperor could not prevent or lessen the blow of. It was all perfectly coordinated and I fail to see how the Emperor could stand to challenge the full fury of Chaos, the person who couldn't even defeat something he had created.

[Gree]

Working with hypothetical scenerions is dangerous? Man, I must risk my life and limb daily then. :rolleyes:

 

Fine then, working with hypotheticals in the 30th/40th Millenium is dangerous, along with the sciences in modern days. Happy?

 

No, we are talking about a fan theory, not something in the 30th/40th millenium.

 

 

He might well have been wrong, but being supreme ruler his word was law.

 

and look how well that turned out.

 

Yes I am, the entire Heresy was brought around due to the manipulations of Chaos, something the Emperor could not prevent or lessen the blow of. It was all perfectly coordinated and I fail to see how the Emperor could stand to challenge the full fury of Chaos, the person who couldn't even defeat something he had created.

 

Putting aside the fact that the Emperor held back against Horus until the last second, Who do you think protects humanity from the Golden Throne and fights the Chaos Gods in the Warp?