Magnus the Failure

[mob16151]

Working with hypothetical scenerions is dangerous? Man, I must risk my life and limb daily then. :rolleyes:

 

Fine then, working with hypotheticals in the 30th/40th Millenium is dangerous, along with the sciences in modern days. Happy?

 

No, we are talking about a fan theory, not something in the 30th/40th millenium.

 

 

He might well have been wrong, but being supreme ruler his word was law.

 

and look how well that turned out.

 

Yes I am, the entire Heresy was brought around due to the manipulations of Chaos, something the Emperor could not prevent or lessen the blow of. It was all perfectly coordinated and I fail to see how the Emperor could stand to challenge the full fury of Chaos, the person who couldn't even defeat something he had created.

 

Putting aside the fact that the Emperor held back against Horus until the last second, Who do you think protects humanity from the Golden Throne and fights the Chaos Gods in the Warp?

 

 

Hahaha when I first read that I had a image of a vengeful golden throne out to get humanity.

[Gree]

Working with hypothetical scenerions is dangerous? Man, I must risk my life and limb daily then. :rolleyes:

 

Fine then, working with hypotheticals in the 30th/40th Millenium is dangerous, along with the sciences in modern days. Happy?

 

No, we are talking about a fan theory, not something in the 30th/40th millenium.

 

 

He might well have been wrong, but being supreme ruler his word was law.

 

and look how well that turned out.

 

Yes I am, the entire Heresy was brought around due to the manipulations of Chaos, something the Emperor could not prevent or lessen the blow of. It was all perfectly coordinated and I fail to see how the Emperor could stand to challenge the full fury of Chaos, the person who couldn't even defeat something he had created.

 

Putting aside the fact that the Emperor held back against Horus until the last second, Who do you think protects humanity from the Golden Throne and fights the Chaos Gods in the Warp?

 

 

Hahaha when I first read that I had a image of a vengeful golden throne out to get humanity.

 

I meant from, as operating from it.

[mob16151]

@ Gree Yea I got that. it was the first time I read the sentence only that I thought that. But you have to admit a vengeful Golden throne is kinda funny.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Hmm... Maybe what we should be considering here on page 6 is not if we should be hating Magnus, but if we should feel sympathy for the brave warriors of his legion?

 

The Thousand Sons themselves. They were from the very beginning plagued with mutation and gene seed difficulties. They suffered countless cases of mutation and scorn from every corner of the growing Imperium for a problem that was not their fault (it technically was the Emprah's for making a faulty gene-seed, but I digress), and hated by many of their brother legions for things that they had no control over. Yet they still fought valiantly and won their share of the Crusade's victories.

 

Ok, so they fought and won with questionable means. Where did they get those means, and how did they get saved anyway? From Magnus himself. Magnus saved his legion. Well, at least he thought he did. After having read A Thousand Sons, I am of the opinion that Magnus acted out of what he thought was genuine concern, with his urge for more knowledge a subconscious desire. H did save his legion from the terrible prolems of their gene-seed, and they sure were terrible problems. Can you just imagine watching a brave man succumbing to wild, uncontrollable changes in their genetic structure, in the course of seconds? Awful...

 

So, Magnus rescued them from mutation, and taught his men how to utilize the incredible power they had locked inside them, and to utilize their hidden potential to make up for their crippling shortage of numbers (Actually, hearing the tales of how few the Sons were in number, and knowing the line about the Salamanders being the smallest legion, it makes me seriously wonder about just how small my favorite legion really was. PM me if you have any ideas.). Using their natural talents combined with the best source of instruction and education on the subject in human controlled space to make up for their smaller fighting force seems a very rational, highly efficient scheme for success.

 

 

At the Council of Nikeae (I don't know how to spell it right), Magnus and his senior commanders were drawn forth, chastised, publicly humiliated, and embarrassed beyond rational thought, by the very man who was responsible for your conditions in the first place.

 

How would you react?

 

I would react as they did, to try and prove that its not wrong. Even the White Scars and Sanguinius thought it was wrong. I know I didn't mention the many other legions represented there but those two are the stand outs. The White Scars believe they get their powers from nature as well. They are shamans that then become Librarians, even with that same style of belief as the Rune Priest which is shamanistic in nature. They know they use the warp and dont kid themselves.

 

On do space wolves have a Librarum, I dont know what they call theirs but here are the emperors words from A Thousand Sons pg.355

 

"I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censurem for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again deploy psychic powers."

 

Oh, and on Russ ordering his wolves to attack the sons to make them use their powers openly is treachery of the highest degree. Its an assault on a fellow Legion with no provacation and yet Russ wasn't sanctioned for the attack. Think on that for a minute, The Space Wolves attacked a fellow legion that wasn't attacking them, and wasn't sanctioned for it. Hell, Russ was able to get the Sons brought to trial over their use of librarian powers.

 

"

[Hfran Morkai]

Oh, and on Russ ordering his wolves to attack the sons to make them use their powers openly is treachery of the highest degree. Its an assault on a fellow Legion with no provacation and yet Russ wasn't sanctioned for the attack. Think on that for a minute, The Space Wolves attacked a fellow legion that wasn't attacking them, and wasn't sanctioned for it. Hell, Russ was able to get the Sons brought to trial over their use of librarian powers.

 

When did this happen?

 

Because the Wolves dropped a lot of munitions upon Prospero to beat the world into submission, but they were protected by psychic shields. So the Space Wolves "forcing" the Thousand Sons to use psychic powers is a load of rubbish, they were already using them before the attack began. And the Space Wolves were a small Legion, surely they could have simply fought back with bolters, or had they forgotten how to use them with their use of the arcane arts?

 

Russ knew the Thousand Sons wouldn't come easily, so he carried out a preliminary bombardment, not that id did much, when they started fighting back the Wolves were only to happy to oblige.

 

Treachery of the highest degree would be disobeying orders from someone higher in the chain of command, in this case the Emperor and Horus, even if the objective was still to capture Magnus casualties would have to be inflicted.

[Magnus Thane]

I am well aware that Russ was deceived too.

 

It's what makes the whole fiasco of the Heresy such a fascinating thing. Traitors believing they are still loyal to the Imperium and Loyalists carrying out acts of treason without knowing it.

 

There are no hard and fast answers, which is what makes it so enjoyable, everyone made their own mistakes.

 

Legions were lured away from where they were needed (Ultramarines)

One Legion worshiped the Emperor (Word Bearers)

Pacts were made with cruel and sentient beings (Thousand Sons)

A Legion was set upon another Legion, with either the order to kill or a furious bloodlust (Space Wolves)

 

Those are just four of the mistakes that various Legions made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, no-one is exempt from blame which is why I stand by my earlier statement that Horus was the Greatest Traitor and that was more because of the power he held, he too was mislead by the forces of Chaos.

 

To sum it up quite nicely in a way all sides will agree with:

 

Prospero = complete fiasco. :lol:

 

The entire situation was a mess, achieved nothing that served the Imperial cause, led to the downfall (or just finished the downfall) of the 1000 Sons and basically sidelined the Wolves.

A big victory for the 'bad guys' and they never even had to send a single Marine over there.

[Lansirill]

@ Gree Yea I got that. it was the first time I read the sentence only that I thought that. But you have to admit a vengeful Golden throne is kinda funny.

 

Heck, Humanity probably -does- need saving from the Golden Throne, although I suppose that the Emperor is an unlikely savior in that case.

 

Oh, and on Russ ordering his wolves to attack the sons to make them use their powers openly is treachery of the highest degree. Its an assault on a fellow Legion with no provacation and yet Russ wasn't sanctioned for the attack. Think on that for a minute, The Space Wolves attacked a fellow legion that wasn't attacking them, and wasn't sanctioned for it. Hell, Russ was able to get the Sons brought to trial over their use of librarian powers.

 

When did this happen?

 

Because the Wolves dropped a lot of munitions upon Prospero to beat the world into submission, but they were protected by psychic shields. So the Space Wolves "forcing" the Thousand Sons to use psychic powers is a load of rubbish, they were already using them before the attack began. And the Space Wolves were a small Legion, surely they could have simply fought back with bolters, or had they forgotten how to use them with their use of the arcane arts?

 

Russ knew the Thousand Sons wouldn't come easily, so he carried out a preliminary bombardment, not that id did much, when they started fighting back the Wolves were only to happy to oblige.

 

Treachery of the highest degree would be disobeying orders from someone higher in the chain of command, in this case the Emperor and Horus, even if the objective was still to capture Magnus casualties would have to be inflicted.

 

He's talking about when the Wolves attack the TSons on Shrike (I forget the proper name of the planet.) in the library.

 

To sum it up quite nicely in a way all sides will agree with:

 

Prospero = complete fiasco. :P

 

The entire situation was a mess, achieved nothing that served the Imperial cause, led to the downfall (or just finished the downfall) of the 1000 Sons and basically sidelined the Wolves.

A big victory for the 'bad guys' and they never even had to send a single Marine over there.

 

Sounds like a good summary to me. :(

[randian]

Think on that for a minute, The Space Wolves attacked a fellow legion that wasn't attacking them, and wasn't sanctioned for it.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Magnus turning traitor after his combat with Russ proves the Thousand Sons were traitors before the attack started.

 

Interestingly, in A Thousand Sons Ahriman's description of Magnus after he appears to his Legion in daemonic form doesn't portray him as a traitor, just sullen and angry. Since Ahriman still thought of himself as loyal at the time, you'd think Ahriman would have made note of Magnus desire to join forces with Horus and destroy the Imperium. Some of the captains who helped Magnus contact the Emperor and warn him of Horus' treachery would surely have balked at Magnus' 180-degree change of attitude. "First you wanted to stop him, now you want to join him? What's up?" The story suggests it took a while before Magnus got around to fulfilling his promises to Tzeentch, and that perhaps he was less than enthusiastic even after his ascension. You'd think daemonic ascension would automatically make you as depraved and corrupt as any natural-born daemon, but apparently not in Magnus case.

[Hfran Morkai]

Well the Space Wolves were merely carrying out standard procedure of destroying heretical works, something the Thousand Sons got in the way of, even knowing he Wolves were going to destroy it.

 

End result: Both parties were to blame for acting like fools.

[Piousservant]

Well the Space Wolves were merely carrying out standard procedure of destroying heretical works, something the Thousand Sons got in the way of, even knowing he Wolves were going to destroy it.

 

End result: Both parties were to blame for acting like fools.

 

Heretical? No such thing during the Great Crusade.

 

The Sons would no doubt argue that the destruction of knowledge as Russ wanted ran counter to the secular Imperial Truth and the Emperors attempts to move Mankind out of superstition and ignorance.