Mawloc Deep Strike

[Excubitor]

Recently I was playing against a Nid player using a Mawloc and he tried to burrow it into a tactical squad. Since he was just in range of a Land Speeder Storm he agreed to roll 4d6 scatter as we both though it counted as a Deepstrike. He rolled a hit so no big deal there, and then placed the blast marker and proceeded to kill half the unit.

 

Another player came up as he was placing it and said the Mawloc counted as assaulting if it was placed within 1 inch of an enemy model during the "deepstrike" as you couldn't be within 1 inch of an enemy model and not be in assault. I argued against this and the argument went back and forth for a bit until my opponent and I decided to play as we understood the rules and not count it as an assault. The other guy, before he left, also said the LSS jammer doesn't effect the Mawloc or Trygon.

 

I was wondering what the word is on this? Can a Mawloc count as assaulting after it comes up? And does the Trygon/Mawloc burrowing ignore the LSS Jammer? I can believe the LSS Jammer being ignored, but not the assault after what is effectively a Deepstrike.

 

Any feedback would be great.

[Koremu]

You can't deliberately place a model within 1" of another model except during the Assault Phase. As Deep Strike happens during the movement phase, the Mawloc's initial Deep Strike position must be beyond 1" of an enemy unit. Thus, its attack only happens if it scatters into a unit. Odd, and will probably be errata'd eventually, but currently true.

 

It is affected by the jammer as normal AFAIK.

 

Don't forget as well that the Mawloc is still affected by Deep Strike Mishaps caused by pieces of Terrain.

[Excubitor]

To be fair, he did place the marker just outside the unit, and the template covered 6 of them (my fault for bunching them up).

[Koremu]

What "Marker"? Only the Trygon places a "marker" (and that happens after the Deep Strike, not before).

 

You just place the model more than 1" from any enemy model.

[Excubitor]

Hmm, ok, the way we played it was placing the blast marker first, removing models hit as per the rules, THEN placing the Mawloc down.

 

So you have to place the mawloc, then the blast marker once that is resolved?

[Frosty the Pyro]

There is no rule preventing a deepstrike to be placed anywere, even spots that would be illeagal for a model to be.

 

Pg 95 second paragraph

"First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, were you would like the unit to arrive, then roll the scater dice"

 

If the model ends in an illeagal spot you misshap, but you MAY place it there. (perhaps betting you will scatter off of it)

 

 

 

Both the mawloc and the trygon deploy via deepstrike so tye LSS jammers will function

 

 

Neither the mawloc nor the trygon can deepstrike into an assault, however the fact there were models within 1" of the mawloc means you did something wrong, any survivors of the mawlocs large blast are moved off the large blast template before placing the mawloc, and If I recall the large blast is sufficiantly large that there WILL be one inch of clearance around the mawloc.

[Koremu]

There is no rule preventing a deepstrike to be placed anywere, even spots that would be illeagal for a model to be.

 

Pg 95 second paragraph

"First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, were you would like the unit to arrive, then roll the scater dice"

 

If the model ends in an illeagal spot you misshap, but you MAY place it there. (perhaps betting you will scatter off of it)

No, this is wrong. The model cannot (by the current rules - I realise it's odd) be placed within 1" of an enemy model during the movement phase. Just because page 95 gives you specific permission to place a model rather than have it arrive from a specific point or table edge does NOT mean that you can ignore the generalised prohibition against moving within 1".

 

I fully expect this to get Errata/FAQ'd very soon, but the rule for the Mawloc is very badly worded and works as I state.

[Legatus]

There is no rule preventing a deepstrike to be placed anywere, even spots that would be illeagal for a model to be.

 

Pg 95 second paragraph

"First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, were you would like the unit to arrive, then roll the scater dice"

 

If the model ends in an illeagal spot you misshap, but you MAY place it there. (perhaps betting you will scatter off of it)

It is probably going to be difficult to actually place a Mawloc (or any other deep striking model for that matter) on top of another unit before rolling for scatter.

[Frosty the Pyro]

if you can never place a model within 1" of an enemy model during the movement phase then you would not be able to misshap in that maner from scater either, as you would obviously just place the guy farther away to make it leagal right?

 

No.

 

Deep strike is a special case, that rule does not apply, instead the misshap rules apply, and Mawlocs have special misshap rules. Leagatus has a bit of a point with physical space, though even that is grey enouph.

[Koremu]

Deep strike is a special case, that rule does not apply

Unless you can cite an definite permission in the rules, that ain't the case, sorry. The reason being that Deep Strike Scatter is not "placing" the model - it's compulsory.

 

The 'nid codex is really badly worded in parts.

[Kephri]

Paraphrasing the Mawloc rules:

Put the large blast template over the spot where it is supposed to emerge.

Then resolve hits/wounds.

Then move surviving stuff out of the template radius. (according to various rules and regulations in the paragraph)

Then place the Mawloc.

 

So you are not placing the Mawloc anywhere until after it has a large blast template worth of space to emerge from.

In addition, the rule is badly worded, and can lead to other debates.

 

So for purposes of this thread:

The Mawloc does not count as being in assault/assaulting during a deep strike, as all units are either dead or moved out from the template.

It is deep striking so it is effected by the LSS.

 

 

In my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Legatus]

if you can never place a model within 1" of an enemy model during the movement phase then you would not be able to misshap in that maner from scater either, as you would obviously just place the guy farther away to make it leagal right?

The deep strike rules actually take the 1" rule fully into account. This is from the "Deep strike mishaps" rules:

 

"If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, on top or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the deep strike Mishap table and apply the results."

 

So the mishap is not triggered by a model actually being placed within 1" (or on top of) an enemy model, it is triggered because a model would have to be placed there. I.e. the deep strike works out as follows:

 

- place the first model of the deep striking unit

 

- determine scatter

 

- if scatter prevents any models from being placed at that point (or if you placed the first model too close to the enemy, so the following models would be placed within 1" of enemy models), it's a mishap

 

 

The argument here is that the first model, which is placed before scatter is determined, has to be placed in a legal (and physically possible) position. The deep strike rules do not demand that the player "picks a spot where he would like the first model to land", they demand that the first model is placed. So deciding that the first model should land inside an enemy unit and then determining that the first model cannot be placed there would not meet the requirements of the deep strike rules.

[Tech Brother Torgo]

It's far too unclear and early for anyone to be claiming the final word on the placement of the deep strike template (although it seems to be RAI that the Mawlock can be placed over an enemy unit). This is definitely a gray area that has been debated over and over again, and without something clear from GW it's unlikely you will get the two camps to reconcile. House rules or a roll-off are about the only real solution for now.

[Koremu]

I agree that it is RAI, but the wording is really really poor.

[Kephri]

I agree that it is RAI, but the wording is really really poor.

 

I very much agree with this. The new Tyranid codex has a lot of things that need to be cleared up.

[Ming]

I have seen some tournaments publish their own ruling that the Mawlock blast template entry hole has to be placed using the normal deep strike rules (cannot be within an inch, etc.), but is allowed to scatter underneath enemy units.

 

On the other hand, the mawlock RAI seem to be that it is tunneling underneath the ground, to come up (similar as how old IG termites used to) in a bubble of plasma (means of tunneling), thus can be placed anywhere and then open to deviation. Somehow unlike tank shocking, the unit occupying the same space is not allowed a means to step aside as the ground gets hot.

 

As we wait fo a FAQ, I'd just make sure you and your opponent are aware of what your agreed interpretation will be in advance of the game.

[Excubitor]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I've got down the key points and we'll hash out a temporary house ruling until it's made clearer.

 

Probably go for the RAI interpretation, as long as those things can't show up in the middle of my tactical squads and be in assault I'm not really all that fussed :blink:

 

Again, thanks for hashing out the main points for and against. Makes things easier for those of us in the club not used to the new nids (playing against and playing as).

[Spacefrisian]

Their is a simple way of preventing the mawloc to appear and that has to do with movement.

 

The Mawloc comes from underneath (goes underground), in addition you may not move anymore than that model is allowed to, eg Tactical marines may move 6".

 

Any piece of terrain stands higher than the table (even with 1 milimeter) thus if he would come from underneath terrain he would be making a bigger move than he is allowed to. Therefor he cannot come into any piece of terrain. So keep youre models in terrain and they would be save.

 

Its a little bit farfetched i know but still its something to abuse.