Tactica / list ideas needed for upcoming tourney

[pattison]

The restrictions:

• 1250 pts
  
• standard missions
  
• 1 HQ (can be named character)
  
• max 2 ELITE
  
• max 2 FAST
  
• max 2 HEAVY
  

Here's what I own, so what would you pick for an all-comers (expecting quite a lot of ork & chaos players)?

 

HQ:

1 lysander

1 vulkan

1 captain w/ relic blade

1 chaplain w/ jump pack

1 chaplain

1 librarian

 

ELITES:

10 tac terminator, options: 1 HFLAM, 1 ACAN

10 sternguard, options: 2 HFLAM, 5 CMelt, 1 PF

2 dreadnought, options: all default arms + 1 TL autocannon

1 ironclad dread, options: all default arms

 

FAST ATTACK:

2 land speeder, options: all default weapons, typhoon launchers

10 jump pack assault, options: 2 FLAM, 2 PPIST, srg w/ TH&CS or PPIST

 

TROOPS:

10 tactical, srg w/ PF

10 tactical, srg w/ PF

5 tactical, srg w/ PF

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

1 predator, options: all default options

1 whirlwind

10 deva squad, srg w/ SB

 

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS:

1 rhino

1 drop pod

 

HEAVY/SPECIAL WEAPON MARINES (for tac/dev):

2 MM, 3 LC, 4 PC, 5 ML, 4 HB / 2 MG, 2 PG, 2 FL

 

 

 

Cheers,

pattison

[Jackelope King]

Hmm. Not an easy task. It's a really low points-level, altering the FOC is kinda weird, and you'll have a hard time putting a list that can survive on the field just by virtue of it being such a low points-value. Can you yank the turret off of the Whirlwind / Predator and use it as a Rhino for a game? And do you have alternate sergeants without power fists?

 

Librarian (Null Zone, The Avenger)

 

Dreadnought (Heavy Flamer)

Dreadnought (Heavy Flamer)

 

Tactical Squad (Flamer, Las Cannon; Rhino)

Tactical Squad (Flamer, Las Cannon; Rhino)

 

Land Speeder Typhoon

Land Speeder Typhoon

 

Devastators (1 Sgt, 3 Boltguns, 4 Missile Launchers)

Predator (Heavy Bolter Sponsons)

 

7 points to spare.

 

You play the long-ranged game to keep things in your favor and minimze your opponents' ability to respond. Most of your army is mech'd up, which should give you some good immunity to the anti-infantry weapons at this level. On a good turn, this list fires 8 Missiles, which will basically kill of half of a squad of MEQs per turn, reliably deal with light armor, takes down Tyranid MCs, and threatens foot hordes (which you can also run away from while mech'd up). Fire the Las Cannons from the Tactical Squads out of the top hatch at first, playing the ranged game. Your opponent will thus target your Devastators quite a bit, so you're keeping them cheap. Run your Dreadnoughts on turn 1 and pop smoke. You want them in your opponent's face by turn 2, threatening infantry with heavy flamers and vehicles with multimeltas. The enemy will have to deal with the Dreads by his second turn or be hounded all game, which should take some stress off of your Devs (and you shouldn't have suffered more than 3 or so ablative wounds at this point, so most of your firepower should still be in-tact). Then it's just spam away with long-ranged fire. Target priority is killing light transports first, followed closely by killing firebases like Lootaz, Obliterators, enemy Devs and the like. You want your opponent stranded first and neutered at range second. When your opponent is too feeble to threaten mid-field, charge forward with the Rhinos, unload your Tacticals, and clean up. Librarian will probably wind up with your Devastators, but if you combat squad and drop off half of a Tactical Squad somewhere (which might work in a 2-objective game), you can also take the Librarian with a combat squad in a Rhino. You want the Librarian around to turn off enemy psykers (neutering any tricky Eldar Farseer or Chaos Lash lists at this level) and to really punish anyone foolish enough to take a rock unit at this points level with Null Zone. The Avenger is just a suggestion... Marine Librarians have terrible ranged powers, but the Avenger, at least, lets him really torch anyone who comes after your Devs.

 

The only ranged HQ I could really recommend would be a Master of the Forge, which you don't seem to have an adequate model for. And if you get one, or can proxy / borrow one, you want a MotF on a bike with a Conversion Beamer. Swap the Devs out for the Ironclad, and you can either drop pod in the Ironclad with a pair of heavy flamers, or load every vehicle up with Hunter Killer Missiles for a big first turn missile spam to try to alpha strike the other guy's transports.

 

--------

 

Vulkan

 

Dreadnought (Heavy Flamer w/ HKM)

Dreadnought (Heavy Flamer w/ HKM)

 

Tactical Squad (Flamer, Multimelta; Rhino w/ HKM)

Tactical Squad (Flamer, Multimelta; Rhino w/ HKM)

 

Land Speeder Squadron (2x Speeders; MM/HF)

Assault Squad (Drop Pod, 2x Flamers, Sgt. gets a Power Fist)

 

5 points to spare.

 

Riskier list. You are going to have to get in the other guy's face to win with this one, and you have less armor on the field to protect your Marines. Vulkan rides down in the Drop Pod with the Assault Marines. In order to be successful, you need exposed enemy infantry on the flank you drop your Drop Pod on. You come out of the Drop Pod, pop a transport, and start barbequing the enemy with your twin-linked Flamers and Heavy Flamers. If your enemy has lots of AP3 or AP2 weaponry, ring your squad around the Drop Pod when you come in, with 6 BP/CCW Marines behind the Drop Pod, so your squad can claim a 4+ cover save.

 

Same deal with the Dreads as before, but if your opponent doesn't have exposed infantry to target on a flank, you need to open up a transport, and you've got the option of delaying for a turn and firing 4 Hunter Killer Missiles to do so if your Land Speeders can't manage it. The Dreads need to be knocking on the enemy's door by turn 3 to help pick up from the attrition Vulkan's squad has likely been suffering, the biggest of which will be on turn 1. Those hunter killer missiles are basically your only long-ranged weaponry in the list, but don't be afraid to fire them all right away if you don't have any exposed targets for Vulkan's Barbeque Boys. Twin-linked flamers of all sorts obliterate light infantry, and even give Marines headaches, as you can just pile on so many wounds that they'll start flubbing saves eventually.

 

Speeders open up Transports first, cook infantry second. Always try to leave a target to charge with Vulkan's squad to spare them enemy gunfire. You lose combat tactics here, so no jumping out of combat if you get counter-charged, regrouping, and rushing back up with three templates to cook the consolidated enemy to death, so you have to support Vulkan's squad by threatening the rest of the enemy force with support from your Dreads and Tacticals. By turn 3, you want your whole army rolling up the enemy's flank. This army must stay packed together. If you divide your forces, you're gonna die. This army will win or lose based on how successful you are at pushing the other guy's back to the wall and keeping him pinned there for the whole game. You have to control mid-field and encroach into the enemy's deployment zone with your Tactical Marines, which means they're going to be exposed.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Good morning!

 

Defo swap out the WW for the extra rhino for tac squad.

 

I like Jackelope's first list most and their tactic for it are very sound - nice one ;) Any changes I might suggest would be pretty inconsequential: Maybe drop the Dev serge's storm bolter and swap tacs las cannons for plasma cannons giving you something to seriously dent 2+sv things - which at this points level are unlikely to be in transports (See Hammernators...) This would give you an extra 15 points which I would use to swap out one of the devs missile launchers for a lascannon making the most of the BS5 shot. If Jack and my pointings are correct this should give you a straight 1250 points.

[pattison]

Hey Guys, thanks for the replies!

I have to say that the ranged list is much more my style.

I think I'm too chicken to run a melta/flamer list, I'm too stuck with long range support.

Normally when I play friendly games I like to drop pod a (sometimes venerable) dread with HFDCCW and either MM or AssC. The ironclad is still in his box, so didn't try it yet, but should also work.

One thing though that came in my mind, let me know what you think about it:

Maybe I should swap the MMs on the dreads to TLHFs for real infantry nightmare.

Rerolling on to wound & ignoring cover? Yes please. I can use the remaining points to swap a flamer in one of the tac squads to a meltagun.

I am a bit afraid though, that the charging dreads will be (counter) assaulted by nobs or such.

Actually my 1250 list I usually field at friendly games (kind of successfully) is only a little bit different from this. In most of the cases I change one of the rhinos in for a drop pod, put either a tactical squad or a dreadnought in it, and make the other dread a long ranged one. If it's not the tac squad who goes to the pod then I combat squad them most of the cases, support with the LC part and gate around the field with the FL part accompanied by the Librarian (can be a last turn objective catcher).

 

'And if you get one, or can proxy / borrow one, you want a MotF on a bike with a Conversion Beamer.'

 

Well believe it or not, I've already been asking around for parts to be able to convert one for myself.

Most likely I will magnetie the torso to be able to use it with a bike or put it in a pod.

How would your list look like with a MotF? I dig the ironclad idea, but what would you do with the other dreads? Isn't it an overkill to have 3 similarly tasked dreads in a 1250 list?

 

Regarding Brother Captain Josef's suggestion: I don't think I really need plasma cannons -although I love 'em- in these tacticals, as I can use the missiles for the same type of enemies instead.

 

Oh, but maybe what about something like...

 

MotF bike&beamer, 2 LC/FL tacs in rhinos, 2 typhoons, 2 PC/HF dreads, ironpod HF/MG, dakkapred.

 

Anti-heavy: MotF, tacs, typhoons, dakkapred, ironclad

Anti-light: tacs, typhoons, dakkapred, ironclad, plasma-flamer dreads

 

Hmm hmm.

I expect tons of lashes though, so I'm still flirting with the Librarian option.

[Jackelope King]

I'd probably choose the Librarian myself in most cases, but either way, all the enemy can lash are you Devs: everything else will be safely in a vehicle. At this level, being able to spam enough missiles will threaten most light transports and most enemy models. The advantage to the MotF would be that he would be the only model in your army that your opponent could Lash (does Lash work against Bikes, or just infantry?), with the rest of your army nicely mech'd.

 

As for whether or not three dreads is overkill... I've run a list with 5 of them (all HF/MM Dreads), and it was quite a bit of fun. They serve two purposes in such a list:

1. The somewhat risky addition of 4 extra missile shots on turn 1 in an alpha strike to cripple enemy vehicles. The investment isn't huge enough that your army will be limping all game if the alpha strike fails, so it's a decent consideration.

2. They provide something that's halfway between a unit of killers (when they move in, they'll have 10 S10 attacks on the charge, if you keep them together) and a unit of skirmishers (who will tie up everything short of TH/SS termies and MC spam for the whole game, neither of which you'll see much of at 1250 points). Three Dreads must be dealt with once they reach your lines, and at 1250, many foes will be hard-pressed to bring enough anti-vehicular firepower to deal with them before they're torching and assaulting.

 

The trade-off of going for a Master of the Forge is becoming almost-completely mech'd up: anti-infantry fire against your force will be largely useless, Lash will be largely useless, and you spam a third Dreadnought. On the down-side, you lose the more reliable source of missile launchers in your army (the Devs, who I honestly think only really deliver at very high points value games, like 2500, when you can spam 20-odd missile launchers and cripple every light vehicle your enemy plops down in front of you) and you trade psychic defense (of only mild importance at 1250, honestly, but always nice) in exchange for a long-ranged and relatively reliable heavy weapon (I think the MotF is on target some 70-80% of the time with a conversion beamer, and almost 90% against large enemy squads). I'd personally still prefer the Librarian, but wouldn't mind the MotF either.

 

And I'm not a fan of swapping the multimelta for a TLHF on the Dreadnoughts. Makes them way too easy to prioritize. A smart foe will just feed you a big squad or a tough enemy to tarpit your dread all game, keeping you away from vulnerable, easily-flamered models. The Multimeltas are also insurance against any tough armor or 2+ save Tyranid MCs.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

MoTF > libby

 

in this case

[pattison]

What about this then?

 

libby - 100p

10 tactical, FL, LC, PF, rhino - 240p

10 tactical, FL, LC, PF, razorback - 245p

ls typhoon - 90p

ls typhoon - 90p

dread MM/HF - 115p

dread AssC/HF - 125p

ironclad HF/MG/AssL - 160p

dakkapred - 85p

 

One of the tacticals will have to obviously combatsquad.

Libby travels with the FL+PF half in a regular RB. LC half stays back to pop vehicles from long range while -if possible- sitting on a close objective.

The whole army can form a huge convoy.

Ironclad at the head, MM dread, AssC dread, Razor, Rhino.

Or should it be a wall of 3 dreads with the transports behind?

The RH&RB can leave the convoy later if needed to go for objectives.

Although the libby in the RB may assist the assault of the dreads with a Null Zone and his Psychic Hood from behind.

It's a bit of a waste though to restrict the movement of the rhinos to 6inch+D6inch (and the result of the "slowest runner" dread matters if I want to keep them together).

I swapped one MM to an AssC, as I have good experiences with AssCs on dreads.

Thoughts on this?

Have been hesitating about PCs too for the dreads, but they don't really seem to fit their current role. I took Assault Launchers for the Ironclad, may come handy before the charge.

Long range support would be the typhoons and the dakkapred (plus the LC tac half).

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I still don't see the need for a librarian in your list anywhere. Unless you just want to use him because you like librarians

[pattison]

I still don't see the need for a librarian in your list anywhere. Unless you just want to use him because you like librarians

 

Mm well I like to use librarians, but the main reason is that I hate those enemy psychic powers so much. Any suggestions on an alternate HQ choice?

[pattison]

Okay, some changes!

It came clear that we won't have standard missions, but unique ones.

I translated them for you:

 

Restrictions:

 

-Maximum 1250 pts

-Maximum 1 HQ (min. 1)

-Maximum 2 Elite, 2 Fast Attack, 2 Heavy Support (no minimums)

-Named characters may come

 

Table : 48"x72"

 

Mission #1 (Flank Attack)

 

Deployment: 15’ on the long side of the table

Objectives: 1 in one of the deployment zones, 2 objectíves in the other one, minimum 12" from each other and the edge of the table (3 oblectives in total)

Special rules: any units coming from reserve may outflank

Points: 1 held objective gives 5 points + maximum 5 ’Killpoints’ for fully destroyed units/characters/vehicles -> maximum 20 points overall

 

Mission #2 (Implacable Advance)

 

Deployment: 24" on the short side of the table

Objectives: 1 in the middle of the table + 1 in both deployment zones (3 oblectives in total)

Special rules: no outflank, all reserve units are coming in from the long side of the owned deployment zone

Points: 1 held objective gives 5 points + maximum 5 ’Killpoints’ for fully destroyed units/characters/vehicles -> maximum 20 points overall

 

Mission #3 (Blitzkrieg)

 

Deployment: ’Spearhead’, but the radius of the ’no-mans-land’ is 9"

Objectives: 1 in the middle of the table + 1 in both of the table quarters that are not being deployment zones (3 oblectives in total)

Special rules: only ’Fast Attack’ selections may be deployed in turn 1, rest starts in ’Reserve’; ’Fast’ vehicles may arrive from reserve in turn 1 on a 4+, if not then normal ’Reserve’ rules apply just like the rest of the army

Points: 1 held objective gives 5 points + maximum 5 ’Killpoints’ for fully destroyed units/characters/vehicles -> maximum 20 points overall

 

Any suggestions in the light of these regarding the list I should bring?

See my inventory in the first post.

 

Cheers,

p.

[pattison]

I am tending towards the following list @ the moment (see missions & restrictions in the post above):

 

HQ:

MotF w/ beam&PW - 135p

 

FAST ATTACK:

2 land speeder typhoons - 180p

2 land speeder typhoons - 180p

 

TROOPS:

10 tactical, 1 FL, 1 ML, srg w/ PF - 195p

rhino - 35p

10 tactical, 1 FL, 1 ML, srg w/ PF - 195p

rhino - 35p

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

1 dakkapredator - 85p

8 dev squad, 3 ML 1 PC- 208p

 

 

This way I can use 2 of my fav things in the last times: typhoons & dakkapreds. Simply love 'em.

This is 13 missiles, 12 heavy bolter shots etc. / turn...

I changed the 4th ML in the dev squad to a PC for additional anti medium-tough infantry punch. And plasma cannons are so bad ass. :P

What do you think?

[Jackelope King]

Not bad, but if you have anything better to spend the points on, I'd drop the plasma cannon. It's a one-of, and at this point value especially, plasma is the red-headed stepchild of Marine weapons (not good enough for killing Vehicles reliably, not enough range to duke it out at truly long range, not enough shots to really threaten MCs, and small blasts are underwhelming against anything but the most densely-packed foot army). The Devs are going to get shot to pieces early anyway, so I think it's an iffy investment.

[pattison]

Not bad, but if you have anything better to spend the points on, I'd drop the plasma cannon. It's a one-of, and at this point value especially, plasma is the red-headed stepchild of Marine weapons (not good enough for killing Vehicles reliably, not enough range to duke it out at truly long range, not enough shots to really threaten MCs, and small blasts are underwhelming against anything but the most densely-packed foot army).

Where would you use the 10 points that frees up from the dropping of the plasma?

According to my experience the plasma cannon's 36 inch is enough in most of the cases, although I tend to use it in tacticals instead of devs.

And having this many missile launchers... I am hoping for a couple of densely-packed footsoldiers falling out of transports! ;-)

 

The Devs are going to get shot to pieces early anyway, so I think it's an iffy investment.

Well in most of the cases they're all far enough to get harassed. I think these special missions (see above) are providing good platform for a long range + fast concept army.

But the thing I rely on the most in this case is the 3+ save the devas will have, no matter what weapon is being shot at them.

I think bolster defences does make a difference!

[Mysticaria]

10 points.... Maybe meltaguns or lascanons in the tactical squads? That would give them the ability to widen their threat range a little.

 

-Myst

[pattison]

10 points.... Maybe meltaguns or lascanons in the tactical squads? That would give them the ability to widen their threat range a little.

Originally it was a LC instead of one a ML in one of the tac squads.

I think I'll put it back. The only thing I seem to miss from this army is a counter assault unit.

Of course I am hoping to be able to avoid being assaulted and it should not be too hard with this amount of ranged firepower, but who knows...

I'll test this list tomorrow.

[Jackelope King]

Getting assaulted at this level will actually be tough for your opponent to pull off, for a few reasons. First, aside from your Devs, everyone is mech'd up, which grants you a nice layer of protection against being assaulted. Second, you're probably going to have one of the more mobile forces on the table, meaning you'll be better prepared to pick and choose where an engagement will take place.

 

Yeah, assault-heavy armies like Tyranids and Blood Angels will get assaults off. It's life. And when you do get assaulted, you want to be in a position where you can safely Combat Tactics out of a fight and then shoot the guys who assaulted you. Your army is shooty and has pretty great range, so if a squad gets assaulted, they should fall back and let everyone else get some shots in. Personally, I'd feel a little more comfortable with a pair of multimelta Dreads in there, but four Typhoons will give people relying on light transports fits, and send people trying to field foot armies into convulsions.

 

Now go practice with the thing ;)

[pattison]

Tested the list yesterday and (a modified one) today against Space Wolves.

He had 3 troops, one in Rhino one in Pod and one on foot, 2 Runepriests, a Long Fang squad with MLs and LCs, a bike squadron with flamers and meltas and some added Wolf Guards. Maybe I forget something, but this was the core of the foe. He is a more experienced player than me and I generally suck against SW.

 

Yesterday I tested the list already mentioned here, and managed to lay down enough firepower to successfully avoid close combat situations.

At the end I held 2 out of 3 objectives and collected 4 killpoints while the Wolves got 1 objective + 2 killpoints, so I won 14 against 7.

The killpoints he achieved were mostly of my Land Speeders, blasted by the most annoying part of his inventory: the Living Lightning from the Rune Priests.

Almost all of my units were constantly in cover, but I could not really help those psychic attacks.

I did not lose a single heavy weapon marine from my devastators, as the 3+ cover save they had made everything except the Living Lightning to miss them.

I'm rather confident about the long range firepower of my list, but I'll have to be careful with my troops as I have only 2. Coming in from reserve may give them some durability, but my main focus should also be the elimination of the enemy troops as far as I can see.

 

Today's game was played with this list (against a quite similar Wolves one):

 

HQ:

chaplain w/ jump pack - 115p

librarian - 100p

 

FAST ATTACK:

2 land speeder typhoon - 180p

10 jump pack assault, 2 w/ FLAM, srg w/ TH - 240p

 

TROOPS:

10 tactical, 1 PG, 1 ML, srg w/ PF - 205p

rhino - 35p

10 tactical, 1 FL, 1 LC, srg w/ PF - 205p

 

HEAVY:

2 dakkapred - 170p

 

The Rhino tactical came in from outflank and put rapid fire on the Long Fangs with some help from my Predators (assault squad & chaplain hiding behind them), but could not reach his objective as the bikers intercepted and eradicated them, coming in from reserve in a later turn. He droppodded right next to my objective held in a ruin by 2 combat squads (one with the Libra attached), but I cleared them with the marines, speeders and a successful Vortex of Doom.

His Rhino troop arrived to the same spot and made my object holding combat squad run off the table. I Gated out with the Libra + combat squad from the ruin to a safer objective (close to my assault marines & Predators), and pushed the jump pack guys between them to have at least one secure objective.

Managed to trash them with the jumpies and some help from the speeders (pure gold).

The Predators kept shooting out from the forest preventing the bike squadron from closing in too much (one Predator still wrecked), and also thinned the objective holders on the far end. Done with the Rhinoed enemy troop the Typhoons (again!) moved to get LOS on the objective holder squad on the far side of the table and shot them dead.

Finally I popped his rhino with the assault sarge's thunder hammer. Wipeout.

5 points for the objective + 5 killpoints (maximum) on my side, 3 killpoints on his: 10-3.

 

Although I wiped him out today, the original list convinced me better due to the firepower it offers.

 

Let me know your thoughts!

[pattison]

My final list for the tournament tomorrow:

 

HQ:

MotF w/ beamer - 120p

 

FAST ATTACK:

2 land speeder typhoons - 180p

2 land speeder typhoons - 180p

 

TROOPS:

10 tactical, 1 MG, 1 PC, srg w/ PF - 205p

rhino - 35p

10 tactical, 1 FL, 1 LC, srg w/ PF - 205p

razorback w/ TLLC - 75p

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

dakkapredator - 85p

tri-las predator - 165p

 

Will do battle report. Not that anyone is interested, but still.