Deep Striking Land Raider & Descent of Angels

[Chucku]

Here's one to mull over.

 

I take an Assault Squad, strip their jump packs and purchase a LR Redeemer.

 

Although the wargear entry for jump packs says that all Blood Angels with jump packs get Descent of Angels it is also a rule explicitly given to an Assault Squad.

 

Descent of Angels allows squads arriving by Deep Strike to reroll their reserve roll and they only scatter 1d6".

 

My question is ... Does Descent of Angels apply when said squad is Deep Striking in a Land Raider?

[MephAddict]

Are land raiders an option for a dedicated transport for an assault squad? that doesnt sound right...

[Kinzel]

I believe it's any unit with JumpPacks has Descent of Angels, remove their JPs and remove the rule.

 

I think they are now since you can't get them in Heavy Support with BA anymore.

[teeef]

Land Raiders are a dedicated transport option for the RAS (yeah I know there is no VAS but RAS is so clearly what I mean in three letters).

 

But The Land Raider is what is deep striking. Not the Assault Squad. And Land Raiders do not have DoA.

 

If you can pop the BA jump pack wargear option on the Land Raider then you got the DoA (yes I am being silly).

 

Unless you exchange the "Land Raider" wargear for "Invisible Land Raider" and then the Jump Pack option is free with the Assault Squad that rides in the Invisible Land Raider. The Invisible Land Raider and the Storm Raven are the only vehicles that can transport JP troops.

 

Note, your enemy does not EVER have LoS to your Invisible Land Raider but can target the unit inside. The Invisible Land Raider has an all around Armour stat line of 0, 0, 0 but if you put it hull down in cover the passengers do get the cover save.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i'm fairly certain that rules that apply to the squad in a dedicated transport do indeed apply to their transport, it works for squads taking a rhino when they have outflank, and i don't believe it is the landraider that is deep striking, because when you roll for reserves, you roll for the squad that took the landraider, their transport is just part of the package deal.

 

the question is then whether removing JP from an RAS takes away DoA, which i didn't look closely enough at the JP or RAS entry to see if this is the case, but OMG did say as much. he might be infering that from the JP entry which states that a JP grants DoA to any unit that takes one, or perhaps the RAS entry explicitely spells this out, but i will have to wait until i go and check out the book again before i am certain on this.

[Massawyrm]

i'm fairly certain that rules that apply to the squad in a dedicated transport do indeed apply to their transport, it works for squads taking a rhino when they have outflank, and i don't believe it is the landraider that is deep striking, because when you roll for reserves, you roll for the squad that took the landraider, their transport is just part of the package deal.

 

SWEET! I really want to play you sometime, so I can tell you how your drop pod unit just moved at cruising speed and thus cannot shoot the turn they land.

 

Even if it were legal, it would be mostly irrelevant as drops pods can all take Locator Beacons allowing for perfect placement anyhow.

[teeef]

i'm fairly certain that rules that apply to the squad in a dedicated transport do indeed apply to their transport, it works for squads taking a rhino when they have outflank, and i don't believe it is the landraider that is deep striking, because when you roll for reserves, you roll for the squad that took the landraider, their transport is just part of the package deal.

 

the question is then whether removing JP from an RAS takes away DoA, which i didn't look closely enough at the JP or RAS entry to see if this is the case, but OMG did say as much. he might be infering that from the JP entry which states that a JP grants DoA to any unit that takes one, or perhaps the RAS entry explicitely spells this out, but i will have to wait until i go and check out the book again before i am certain on this.

If the Land Raider is not Deep Striking then why does it have Deep Strike in its special rules. A drop pod can deep strike empty and so can a BA Land Raider.

 

If you remove the Jump Packs from an Assault Squad can they Deep Strike? No.

 

They cannot deep strike without the jump pack so it does not matter if they keep DoA, because they – meaning the Assault Squad – cannot deep strike without jump packs.

 

They can arrive only via Deep Strike in a transport that has that Special Rule.

[Thunder Fist]

Teef has the right of it.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

SWEET! I really want to play you sometime, so I can tell you how your drop pod unit just moved at cruising speed and thus cannot shoot the turn they land.

 

Even if it were legal, it would be mostly irrelevant as drops pods can all take Locator Beacons allowing for perfect placement anyhow.

 

i wasn't aware drop pods could fire the turn they landed, as they are not fast vehicles. A landraider would be able to fire one weapon the turn it landed thanks to PotMS, which where i play is sometimes used to shoot one weapon after firing smoke launchers, so maybe i'm just stuck with a gamey crowd.

[jb85]

I think an attempt by anybody to use the OPs interpretation of the DoA rule should be responded to by hitting said person over the head with the Land Raider in question :lol:

[Thunder Fist]

I think an attempt by anybody to use the OPs interpretation of the DoA rule should be responded to by hitting said person over the head with the Land Raider in question :lol:

 

Perhaps the dent would reshape the Land Raider into a convincing Storm Raven conversion.

[Chucku]

i'm fairly certain that rules that apply to the squad in a dedicated transport do indeed apply to their transport, it works for squads taking a rhino when they have outflank, and i don't believe it is the landraider that is deep striking, because when you roll for reserves, you roll for the squad that took the landraider, their transport is just part of the package deal.

 

the question is then whether removing JP from an RAS takes away DoA, which i didn't look closely enough at the JP or RAS entry to see if this is the case, but OMG did say as much. he might be infering that from the JP entry which states that a JP grants DoA to any unit that takes one, or perhaps the RAS entry explicitely spells this out, but i will have to wait until i go and check out the book again before i am certain on this.

If the Land Raider is not Deep Striking then why does it have Deep Strike in its special rules. A drop pod can deep strike empty and so can a BA Land Raider.

 

If you remove the Jump Packs from an Assault Squad can they Deep Strike? No.

 

They cannot deep strike without the jump pack so it does not matter if they keep DoA, because they – meaning the Assault Squad – cannot deep strike without jump packs.

 

They can arrive only via Deep Strike in a transport that has that Special Rule.

 

No, removing the Jump Packs DOES NOT remove the Descent of Angels rule from Assault Squads. It's built into their unit description, not given to them by benefit of having Jump Packs as war gear.

 

The question is whether the Descent of Angels has any bearing when the Assault Squad is Deep Striking in a Land Raider. The Land Raider is the Assault Squad's dedicated transport and yes, the Assault Squad is in Reserve and deploying via Deep Strike - just not using Jump Packs to do so. The Descent of Angels rule never says Jump Packs, just Deep Strike.

 

I appreciate all those who have given this question serious consideration as I'd like a serious answer to it should I encounter it in a game.

[Sanguinarian]

I think we gotta use common sense when it comes to the inherent gray areas presenting itself to the few that actually have seen and/or studied our latest tome and to the many that are waiting for spilled crumbs of knowledge.

 

This will most likely end up in an FAQ, but until then I think by removing JPs from an AS, it would remove the DoA, which is not a charecteristic of any vehicle ie DPs or DSLRs.

 

With that said, the common sense vote then should be JPs = DoA.

 

Signed,

 

Long-time reader and BA Commander since 3rd Ed., and first time poster

[Priest33]

Without seeing the codex for myself I would tend to agree with the prievous poster. In that when removing the JP you also remove the special rule for DoA, (still find it odd that the acro for this is the same as dead on arrival...) thus the special rule wont transfer to the dsLR. Can always get around this by having a locator beacon in place.

[Sorien]

i'm fairly certain that rules that apply to the squad in a dedicated transport do indeed apply to their transport

 

There is no such rule.

 

The only rule that moves between transports and transported units is Scout, and that is because the rules specifically says so with regards to outflanking.

 

So unless DoA specifically says it affects the transport as well, it does not. Unit =/= transport. You have to remember that transports, dedicated or not, is still a separate and distinct unit from that being transported.

[Wax_Assassin]

DoA is for units WITH Jump Packs. The only reasons Dedicated Transports get the Scout USR is because it specifically says so in the USRs section. You CANNOT use DoA with a Deep Striking LR. There should be no discussion of this. Even suggesting that DoA would apply to a LR makes the entire Blood Angel community look dumber. I hope I have made myself very clear.

[lunchb0x]

What if they rode on top of the land raider? Dante style? :lol:

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

I think we gotta use common sense when it comes to the inherent gray areas presenting itself to the few that actually have seen and/or studied our latest tome and to the many that are waiting for spilled crumbs of knowledge.

 

This will most likely end up in an FAQ, but until then I think by removing JPs from an AS, it would remove the DoA, which is not a charecteristic of any vehicle ie DPs or DSLRs.

 

With that said, the common sense vote then should be JPs = DoA.

 

Signed,

 

Long-time reader and BA Commander since 3rd Ed., and first time poster

 

while it may indeed be that DoA can't affect a DSLR (deep striking landraider) the, "common sense" argument is not enough in and of itself. it might seem perfectly right to you to not use this possible loop-hole, that doesn't mean you won't face someone who will try it and the judges could side with him. it's not wrong for people to want to know exactly where the line is drawn.

 

the point about scout and outflanking is valid, but you are still rolling for the RAS as reserves, not the LR, so DoA would still apply as the RAS is arriving via DS which is the only criteria set in DoA, unless you argue that the RAS is not arriving via deepstrike, which could lead to other complications.

 

so, even if we accept that DoA won't affect the scatter of DSLR, why would DoA not give me a re-roll when rolling for the RAS in reserves? no where in the RAS entry that i recall is it stated that they lose DoA if they don't take JP, but it might be stated in the JP equipment entry.

[Priest33]

RAS no longer have have jumpacks, as they are being transported by the DSLR. The DSLR doesnt have the option for DoA, as only models with Jump Packs have DoA. Models with jump packs cant be transported by a transport, unless stated in the transports rules, which a DSLR doesnt have the rule for. Since the RAS doesnt have jumpacks thus dont have access to DoA and since they are being transported by a DSLR that doesnt have access to DoA then a DSLR WONT have the DoA rule.

 

Figured this was pretty simple to work out?

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

RAS no longer have have jumpacks, as they are being transported by the DSLR. The DSLR doesnt have the option for DoA, as only models with Jump Packs have DoA. Models with jump packs cant be transported by a transport, unless stated in the transports rules, which a DSLR doesnt have the rule for. Since the RAS doesnt have jumpacks thus dont have access to DoA and since they are being transported by a DSLR that doesnt have access to DoA then a DSLR WONT have the DoA rule.

 

Figured this was pretty simple to work out?

 

where in the codex does is say that an RAS without JP doesn't have DoA? they have the special rule as part of their unit entry and i do not believe that it is explicitly stated that they only have the rule because they have JP?

[Priest33]

pretty sure it stated in the equiptment part of the codex that only models with jump packs gained the benifit of the DoA rule. Ill have to check this arvo again to make sure.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i might be wrong, but i just remember it stating that units with JP gain the DoA rule. But the RAS entry just says they have DoA, not that they get it from JP, and DoA is in the army special rules, it's not listed in the JP entry.

[Donkeycow]

even if technically this is possible, it's an abuse of the rules. Rules should be interpreted as intended, not as written, and i can guarantee you any judge will not allow this to happen.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

the owner of my LGS runs the local tournaments and he's inclined to side with RAW and agreed with me initially. he was the one who made the connection between scout and transports, but i see people's point in that scout specifically states the overlap while DoA doesn't. but i still think that RAW, unless i am missing something, which is possible, i don't own the book yet either, DoA can be used for the RAS reserve rule, whether they have their JP or not.

[Priest33]

from memory the DoA rule is stated like such:

 

"Descent of Angels - Any model with a jump packmay re-roll the reserve dice, and scatters only 1D6."

 

Bold mine.