Deep Striking Land Raider & Descent of Angels

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

i have to disagree with you as i am fairly certain that the rules of DoA do not mention JP at all, just DS. I believe it simply states that a unit with DoA that is held in reserves and arrives via DS can reroll it's reserves roll and scatters D6 less than normal.

[Morticon]

Wax - relax please.

Mysterious - double check your rules. Its the jump pack that grants it.

[Wax_Assassin]

Wax - relax please.

 

I apologize, I just get these very violent reactions to dumb.

[Israfel]

How about assulting out of a LR after it has deep struck? Would that work?

[Wax_Assassin]

How about assulting out of a LR after it has deep struck? Would that work?

 

No. You cannot assault after Deep Striking. Same thing with Drop Pods even though they are open-topped.

[Vel'Cona]

If we get to claim DoA for a LR then Doom of Malan'tai gets to hit our guys while they're embarked. :lol: I never thought Ward would write rules with as many holes as Cruddace, and yet here we are.

[Chucku]

Let me clarify and restate what was placed in the original post:

 

DoA is part of the Assault Squad's profile. They have Jump Packs in their Equipment AND DoA in their profile. Both. They have DoA even if the Jump Packs are taken away. Can I say that any more clearly?

 

DoA refers to units arriving by Deep Strike. Nothing about Jump Packs.

 

A Land Raider is the Assault Squad's Dedicated Transport. The Assault Squad is being held in Reserve and will be deployed via Deep Strike in their Land Raider.

[Angelus Mortifer]

Let me clarify and restate what was placed in the original post:

 

DoA is part of the Assault Squad's profile. They have Jump Packs in their Equipment AND DoA in their profile. Both. They have DoA even if the Jump Packs are taken away. Can I say that any more clearly?

 

DoA refers to units arriving by Deep Strike. Nothing about Jump Packs.

 

A Land Raider is the Assault Squad's Dedicated Transport. The Assault Squad is being held in Reserve and will be deployed via Deep Strike in their Land Raider.

 

DoA will only be written in a unit's profile if that unit automatically starts with JPs, otherwise you would be able to DS a unit in without the necessary equipment to do so. That's why it is a wargear ability, not a unit ability, and hence applies to any unit that takes or has/starts with Jump Packs.

 

It's exactly like DS for RAS and DC in the current pdf = RAS start with JPs so they have DS in their unit entry / DC don't start with JPs and so it is not written, but the BRB rule for JPs is that once taken that unit can Deep Strike... :lol:

[Megamarine]

Would DoA also apply to drop pod deep striking?

[Chucku]

Let me clarify and restate what was placed in the original post:

 

DoA is part of the Assault Squad's profile. They have Jump Packs in their Equipment AND DoA in their profile. Both. They have DoA even if the Jump Packs are taken away. Can I say that any more clearly?

 

DoA refers to units arriving by Deep Strike. Nothing about Jump Packs.

 

A Land Raider is the Assault Squad's Dedicated Transport. The Assault Squad is being held in Reserve and will be deployed via Deep Strike in their Land Raider.

 

DoA will only be written in a unit's profile if that unit automatically starts with JPs, otherwise you would be able to DS a unit in without the necessary equipment to do so. That's why it is a wargear ability, not a unit ability, and hence applies to any unit that takes or has/starts with Jump Packs.

 

It's exactly like DS for RAS and DC in the current pdf = RAS start with JPs so they have DS in their unit entry / DC don't start with JPs and so it is not written, but the BRB rule for JPs is that once taken that unit can Deep Strike... :lol:

 

Good point. However since it is written into their profile and there are alternate ways for them to Deep Strike - Land Raiders and Drop Pods - it poses the possibility of interesting unintended consequences.

[Wax_Assassin]

Let me clarify and restate what was placed in the original post:

 

DoA is part of the Assault Squad's profile. They have Jump Packs in their Equipment AND DoA in their profile. Both. They have DoA even if the Jump Packs are taken away. Can I say that any more clearly?

 

DoA refers to units arriving by Deep Strike. Nothing about Jump Packs.

 

A Land Raider is the Assault Squad's Dedicated Transport. The Assault Squad is being held in Reserve and will be deployed via Deep Strike in their Land Raider.

 

Well RAW, yes it just refers to Deep Striking. However, if we pull out our brains we can clearly see it's meant for JP troops only. And I quote, "Due to endless hours of battledrill, a Blood Angels JUMP PACK ASSAULT can make planetfall..." (From the DoA special rule entry in the codex). While they may not lose DoA if they take off their jump packs, it certainly would not apply to the dedicated transport they take. Does a special character gain fleet when they join a unit with it? And before you even say it, dedicated transports only get Scout because the USR specifically states that it carries over.

 

Bottom line, what you are attempting to argue is cheesy and reeks of rules lawyering. It strikes me as both offensive and stupid. This rule was made for jump infantry, not for former jump infantry arriving by transport.

[Sorien]

Let me clarify and restate what was placed in the original post:

 

DoA is part of the Assault Squad's profile. They have Jump Packs in their Equipment AND DoA in their profile. Both. They have DoA even if the Jump Packs are taken away. Can I say that any more clearly?

 

DoA refers to units arriving by Deep Strike. Nothing about Jump Packs.

 

A Land Raider is the Assault Squad's Dedicated Transport. The Assault Squad is being held in Reserve and will be deployed via Deep Strike in their Land Raider.

 

 

The fact that the Land Raider dedicated is irrelevant. The fact that the RAS has DoA is irrelevant.

 

The Land Raider does *not* have DoA and it is the Land Raider that is deep striking, not the RAS.

 

In order for the Land Raider to deviate only 1d6, the Land Raider itself would have to have the DoA rule. It does not. The whole idea is completely absurd and is not supported by the rules in any way, shape or form.

[Chucku]

Let me clarify and restate what was placed in the original post:

 

DoA is part of the Assault Squad's profile. They have Jump Packs in their Equipment AND DoA in their profile. Both. They have DoA even if the Jump Packs are taken away. Can I say that any more clearly?

 

DoA refers to units arriving by Deep Strike. Nothing about Jump Packs.

 

A Land Raider is the Assault Squad's Dedicated Transport. The Assault Squad is being held in Reserve and will be deployed via Deep Strike in their Land Raider.

 

Well RAW, yes it just refers to Deep Striking. However, if we pull out our brains we can clearly see it's meant for JP troops only. And I quote, "Due to endless hours of battledrill, a Blood Angels JUMP PACK ASSAULT can make planetfall..." (From the DoA special rule entry in the codex). While they may not lose DoA if they take off their jump packs, it certainly would not apply to the dedicated transport they take. Does a special character gain fleet when they join a unit with it? And before you even say it, dedicated transports only get Scout because the USR specifically states that it carries over.

 

Bottom line, what you are attempting to argue is cheesy and reeks of rules lawyering. It strikes me as both offensive and stupid. This rule was made for jump infantry, not for former jump infantry arriving by transport.

 

For the record, I'm not attempting anything. I'm just looking for clarification on a potential tactic that may exist and looking for input.

[Chapter Master Asbjorn]

I actually think that they wouldnt be able to get the 1d6 less scatter. However there is nothing stopping them from getting the +1 to reserves rolls from it.

[Angelus Mortifer]

I actually think that they wouldnt be able to get the 1d6 less scatter. However there is nothing stopping them from getting the +1 to reserves rolls from it.

 

There's no +1 Reserve Roll - it's a re-roll to your Reserve Roll and is part of the Jump Pack ability, so you wouldn't be able to use it separate from a JP Deep Strike.

[Chapter Master Asbjorn]

I actually think that they wouldnt be able to get the 1d6 less scatter. However there is nothing stopping them from getting the +1 to reserves rolls from it.

 

There's no +1 Reserve Roll - it's a re-roll to your Reserve Roll and is part of the Jump Pack ability, so you wouldn't be able to use it separate from a JP Deep Strike.

 

Thats the ability i was talking about, and if what is said is true (that the RAS have the ability natively, and still have it after removing jump packs) then they would not get the 1d6 less, only the reroll to reserves. I believe that was the answer the OP was looking for.

[stinkenheim]

the DOA special rule would not work in this case as the vehicle is deep striking not the squad.

its similar to how you could deep strike the land raider but have the RAS start on table, simply because it is a dedicated tranport does not mean it shares all of the rules and as it does not have DOA listed as one of its special rules it cannot use it.

DOA represents them using controlld bursts of their jetpacks to land where they want, how are they meant to do that with a free falling land raider, is everyone meant to stick their head out of a window and blow?

[Chapter Master Asbjorn]

the DOA special rule would not work in this case as the vehicle is deep striking not the squad.

its similar to how you could deep strike the land raider but have the RAS start on table, simply because it is a dedicated tranport does not mean it shares all of the rules and as it does not have DOA listed as one of its special rules it cannot use it.

DOA represents them using controlld bursts of their jetpacks to land where they want, how are they meant to do that with a free falling land raider, is everyone meant to stick their head out of a window and blow?

 

 

DoA is really 2 rules

 

1. Reserves ReRoll

 

2. Deep Strike Accuracy

 

 

Now, RAI i have no idea, i see that they intended it to be really skilled jump packers landing together. RAW i see that its badly implemented, being in the RAS squads profile, regardless of whether they have jump packs or not.

 

However, this is irrelevant for rule 1. In Reserves, it matters not, as long as someone in the squad has a rule that says its squad gets a reserves reroll it gets a reserves reroll. You roll for the squad, and its dedicated transport comes out of reserves with it. Just because jump packs ALSO give this rule is irrelevant here.

 

Rule 2, on the other hand, is going to cause alot of frustration. I would take RAS in Landraiders just for Rule 1 (but i will wait for the FAQ before i buy them :P ) But because people may do this, there is a serious potential for Rule number 2 to be interpreted incorrectly. As i read it (i hope in 6thED dedicated transports, deep strike, drop pods etc get a more detailed explanation) The Land Raider does not get the Additional Accuracy. However i can see how it could be interpreted badly, and lead to seriously cheesy cheating gameplay. I hope that GW releases a very significant FAQ, very soon.

[Angelus Mortifer]

The unit entry and the entry for the Jump Pack in the Wargear section are meant to be used together in any instance, and it makes it very simple to understand. You cannot pick one thing that you want from a combined selection or offering, and discard the rest that you're not happy with, which means you cannot ignore the wargear entry for JPs and only look at the unit in question.

 

- Under JPs in the Wargear section any model with a JP gets DoA.

- DoA is two separate rules combined under one item: 1D6 DS scatter + re-roll Reserve roll when arriving by JP DS.

- Units that automatically come with JPs in their entry will have DoA listed because of this. Units that can purchase JPs as an upgrade won't have DoA listed but will gain the rule when they purchase the wargear.

- Units that start with JPs and subsequently the DoA rule will LOSE ALL of the abilities of the wargear if they choose to remove the item for whatever reason. Ergo, RAS removing JPs to then take a LR as a transport lose both 1D6 Scatter and the Reserve Re-roll because they no longer have the equipment that grants them that abilty!!!! How are some people not getting this, and how do you get that you can keep one of the rules from the wargear and ignore the other?

 

It really isn't difficult to understand and anyone trying to argue against this is just looking for a cheap advantage to break the system to gain a ridiculously stupid benefit.

[SnorriSnorrison]

It really isn't difficult to understand and anyone trying to argue against this is just looking for a cheap advantage to break the system to gain a ridiculously stupid benefit.

 

^QFT.

 

Snorri

[Morticon]

Guys, keep it civil please.

 

Plenty of beardy people will try various things to gain advantages one way or another -its up to us to know the arguments backwards and forwards, both sides of the fence so we can accurately put forward stronger ones so that people may see sense.

[Angelus Mortifer]

Guys, keep it civil please.

 

Plenty of beardy people will try various things to gain advantages one way or another -its up to us to know the arguments backwards and forwards, both sides of the fence so we can accurately put forward stronger ones so that people may see sense.

 

I hope that's what I did with my last post... although I admit I could have used a few less exclamation marks :blink:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Mort your sage advice is quite timely... As usual.

 

:D

 

0b :P

[Citizen _Of_BAAL]

For all you there that argue that RAS without JP keep DoA do you also argue that they keep the Jump Infantry rule as well?

 

I can see both sides of the argument. If they had just left DoA out of the profile and had it inferred through the JP equipment rules this would be simple.

 

RAI I agree no jump pack = no DoA

 

RAW I can see the argument for gaining the reroll to reserves, because you are rolling for the unit not the transport. The Land Raider (or Drop Pod) would not get 1D6 scatter, because it is not the unit doing the deep striking. The Scout USR has made this clear. The units rules do not automatically transfer to the transport.

 

If an Eldar player had pathfinders in a wave serpent would you let them claim a +1 to the tank's cover save? Or do you have to roll for night fighting for a Harlequin's transport?

[Angelus Mortifer]

RAW I can see the argument for gaining the reroll to reserves, because you are rolling for the unit not the transport. The Land Raider (or Drop Pod) would not get 1D6 scatter, because it is not the unit doing the deep striking. The Scout USR has made this clear. The units rules do not automatically transfer to the transport.

 

But the Jump Pack entry for DoA is also a written rule and you cannot discount that under the rules as written argument. Both benefits are attributed to the wargear (scatter and re-roll) and the wargear is a part of a RAS unit from the start, before any changes to the squad...

 

I'm going to have to stop responding to this thread because I'll end up saying something that will get me banned. Good luck to all those trying to get a game by blatantly twisting the rules for your own benefit and the detriment of the game... I salute your utter rubbishness (...is about as restrained as I can make it before the floodgates open :D :D )