Deep Striking Land Raider & Descent of Angels

[Citizen _Of_BAAL]

But the Jump Pack entry for DoA is also a written rule and you cannot discount that under the rules as written argument. Both benefits are attributed to the wargear (scatter and re-roll) and the wargear is a part of a RAS unit from the start, before any changes to the squad...

 

I agree with you 100% but but the point some people are making is that DoA is given to the unit 2 times once through the Jump Pack and once in the units special rules.

 

One of the instances of the rule will be removed with the Jump Pack some are arguing that the instance of DoA written in the RAS special rules stays.

 

I do not agree with this (as I eluded to in my comment of RAI) I was trying to see and understand the argument from the other side. The better you understand the opposing argument the better and more convincing your argument can be for your side.

 

Don't worry Angelus Mortifer I understand your frustration.

[Angelus Mortifer]

I know Citizen, it's just me trying to control the Rage ;)

 

If there's any justice in the world they will FAQ this and ensure I won't ever have to ask the question of someone before I've even opened up my box of little men... not that there will be many instances of me ending up playing against another BA player. It's more for the fact that people who abuse the system give everyone else a bad name <_<

[Wax_Assassin]

The good news is that we, as Blood Angels players can help nip this problem in the bud by simply refusing to play that way. If I ever play a match against a fellow BA who has a LR and a RAS w/out JPs I'll make sure we talk about it before I even get my men all the way unpacked (much easier to get out quick if he does say he plans to try that rubbish).

[Morticon]

How about this then, can a squad assault from a landraider that has entered via DS?

 

Nope. Assault ramps will not overrule the fact that you cannot charge after a deepstrike.

[Brother Mojonir]

For all you there that argue that RAS without JP keep DoA do you also argue that they keep the Jump Infantry rule as well?

 

I can see both sides of the argument. If they had just left DoA out of the profile and had it inferred through the JP equipment rules this would be simple.

 

RAI I agree no jump pack = no DoA

 

RAW I can see the argument for gaining the reroll to reserves, because you are rolling for the unit not the transport. The Land Raider (or Drop Pod) would not get 1D6 scatter, because it is not the unit doing the deep striking. The Scout USR has made this clear. The units rules do not automatically transfer to the transport.

 

If an Eldar player had pathfinders in a wave serpent would you let them claim a +1 to the tank's cover save? Or do you have to roll for night fighting for a Harlequin's transport?

 

Does the Jump Pack entry state that if you remove the Jump Packs you remove the DoA rule ? I have not seen the BA codex but your first sentence gives us an example of a similar situation. In C:SM, in the Assault Squad entry the dedicated transport box states "The Squad may remove its jump packs to count as Infantry." If a similar line, in relation to DoA, does not exist within C:BA I would be inclined to agree that a squad DSing from reserve inside a DSLR would benefit from the re-roll but not the scatter reduction, as others have stated.

[cochise]

Why does everybody seem to ignore the most clear argument about this issue? Do you read the posts that stand there before yours or do you only react if they are referring to your own arguments? :D

 

Quoting Sorien:

The fact that the Land Raider dedicated is irrelevant. The fact that the RAS has DoA is irrelevant.

 

The Land Raider does *not* have DoA and it is the Land Raider that is deep striking, not the RAS.

 

In order for the Land Raider to deviate only 1d6, the Land Raider itself would have to have the DoA rule. It does not. The whole idea is completely absurd and is not supported by the rules in any way, shape or form.

 

Thanks Sorien, for bringing some sense to this post! :thanks:

[JamesI]

How about this then, can a squad assault from a landraider that has entered via DS?

 

Nope. Assault ramps will not overrule the fact that you cannot charge after a deepstrike.

It specifically states in both the Land Raider and the StormRaven entry that no one can assault the turn it deepstrikes.

[chuk dred]

I am about 99% certain that if you look through the description of the rules properly and cross reference it with the official C:BA FAQ you wil get the answer that NO, a land raider will not benefit from the DoA rule. I am also pretty sure that in some circumstances a unit's special rules can be transfered to a transport vehicle, i think maybe in the case of scout moves but i cant remember for sure.

 

The DoA rule is very clearly wrote for units using jump packs to deep strike, the land raider can (clearly) not control its descent in such an angelic manner. Although the rule is stated as quoted above by Priest33 it is an obvious exploitation of the wording and it has been clarified in an official appendix to the codex.

 

Also, someone has said about drop pods and land raiders being dropped empty, NO! dedicated transports cannot enter play like this without the unit it is meant to be transporting. (or at least, not to the best of my (limited) knowledge)

[Black Memories]

Honestly after reading through 3 pages of this it's pretty obvious who owns/reads their copy of codex: blood angels. Some rules in the game do leave some gray area, but most of the mistakes from rules being played come from assumptions of people knowing what they say, not actually reading it. For example about a week ago (though it wasn't a question in game, just a discussion topic), we were discussing combat squading and drop pods and thought it was reasonable to assume that you cannot combat squad once you land because you must do so as you deploy (which I take to mean once you decide to deploy inside the drop pod). However this was silly as the rules explicitly state that you CAN combat squad once landing. Our entire discussion was silly and pointless because it was right there in the rules waiting for us to stop debating and start looking it up.

 

Likewise for these DoA rules the codex specifically states it requires jump packs to be effective. if you remove your jump packs from your assault marines and then give them a rhino, can they still deep strike using the decent of angels rule? Answer: no, because they do not have the required method available for deep striking, thus the deep striking itself is dependent on the mode of transportation and in this case the jump pack specifically give the DoA special rule and the land raider and drop pod do not. This seems extremely cut and dry if you simply read the rules.

 

I agree with mort in the sense that knowing the arguments both was are effective, but only if there is something to question. This is specifically written out. As stated before units that come with jump packs and thus they have the rule. As with any wear gear selection this changes with the removal or addition of other wargear and modifiers. If you change their Bp/CC weapons on one of the marines to a melta gun, that now changes the rules he has. Good luck convincing your opponent that even though you didn't take the melta gun, you should still get a shot with it because it's an option in the wargear section of the assault squad entry. It's a stock option, not mandatory, and it goes away as you change wargear, just as you lose an attack for switching to a melta gun.

[Morollan]

I am about 99% certain that if you look through the description of the rules properly and cross reference it with the official C:BA FAQ you wil get the answer that NO, a land raider will not benefit from the DoA rule. I am also pretty sure that in some circumstances a unit's special rules can be transfered to a transport vehicle, i think maybe in the case of scout moves but i cant remember for sure.

 

The DoA rule is very clearly wrote for units using jump packs to deep strike, the land raider can (clearly) not control its descent in such an angelic manner. Although the rule is stated as quoted above by Priest33 it is an obvious exploitation of the wording and it has been clarified in an official appendix to the codex.

 

Also, someone has said about drop pods and land raiders being dropped empty, NO! dedicated transports cannot enter play like this without the unit it is meant to be transporting. (or at least, not to the best of my (limited) knowledge)

 

And I'm about 99% certain that the question was resolved in the 14 months since this thread was last commented on.

 

Necromancy ftl.

[JamesI]

Let this old thread return to its long sleep.