Legion or Chapter

[Hfran Morkai]

I'm curious as to how you lot refer to the Space Wolves, I prefer Legion to be honest, it sounds more fitting and intimidating than Chapter.

 

Also the Space Wolves pretty much maintain Legion level stockpiles from what I can gather, along with not adhering to Codex Astartes standard doctrines.

 

But what about you?

 

For the Legion!

[Tybrus]

The wolves are a chapter, as calling yourself a Legion would get the BIG I after you, as the only Legions left are all Chaos....

[Max_Dammit]

We are neither, we are the sons of Fenris, the wolfs of Russ, the protectors of mankind.

 

:D

 

But i say legion.

[Beef]

The wolves are a chapter, as calling yourself a Legion would get the BIG I after you, as the only Legions left are all Chaos....

 

 

We can call ourselves whatever we want. But we are Legion and calling ourselves that would not get the big I on us. The big I has better things to do than worry about SW calling themselves legion. Now if we started showing of our martial stregth by opening having all SW great companies together at one time (plus lost companies and 13th) we would start looking like a pre heresy legion and that would raise some questions

[Barn]

Isnt one of the new Blood Angels have the title 'Armorer of the Legion' or some such?

 

If thats the case, im sure the sons of Russ wouldnt get hounded for using it :)

[milmaa]

I like legion myself! :D

[Night Runner]

I like legion myself! ^_^

I second that. Since 3rd I've always preferred playing 30K with Epic, so Legion it is for me!

[G. A. K.]

We are the Mighty Sons of Russ!! We follow his teachings and example. Great Company its been, Great company it shall stay.

Let those from a far be concerned with what name to fear.

For the wolves cometh!!

Woe to those who choose to stand against us.

We are the shores on which they will break!!

[Demonslayer]

Now if we started showing of our martial strength by opening having all SW great companies together at one time (plus lost companies and 13th) we would start looking like a pre heresy legion and that would raise some questions

 

Dang it, Better call of the Great Reunion Feast off then, and I was so looking forward to seeing our lost brothers, even thou one owes me a keg of ale.

 

Well I say Legion, with 12 Great companies, were lesser Space Marines would called chapters

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I say Legion myself.

 

the why is simple. even if the Heresy and the Scouring were the most devastating wars know to mankind, Fenris was able to keep a legion up to strength during these times, i dont see why we would stop making Marines when we are needed most.

 

so, from what we can make, the subterfuge enacted by Russ, and the amount of "lost" companies, i believe the Wolves are still Legion in strength.

 

WLK

[alphalupine]

Well the Space Wolves are still at Legion capacity if fluff can be taken as truth. When the order was given to break down the legions into chapters, second founding, the Space Wolves attempted by forming the Wolf Brothers. The project failed miserably and Leman Russ was heartbroke at the Wolf Brother's fate. Leman vowed to never attempt it again. So with that, Space Wolves are still Legion Strength and just broken into Great Companies to rebelliously adhere to Roboute's and the High Lord's of Terra's decree of dismantling the legions.

[Firenze]

When just talking to people I say chapter. But now thinking about it, it should be Legion.

[Gree]

Ragnar refers to the Wolves as a ''Chapter'' repeatedly. The Wolves are refered to as a ''Chapter'' in the Codex. The word ''Chapter'' is used in Thunder fron Fenris.

 

And the Wolves really are not that big. Ragnar's company is stated to be the second largest after Grimnar's at 200 marines. Great Companies are nowhere near the size of chapters. The Wolves strength is probably around 1500-2000.

 

Lost Companies don't truely count since we don't know how many of them are and they are not really under Logan's command, not to forget the fact that resupply and recruitment would be difficult to say the least. Even with the lost companies added I doubt the Wolves are approaching anywhere next to Legion strength. The only chapter that I would give that honor to is the Black Templars.

[A D-B]

The Black Templars massively outnumber the Space Wolves, don't they? Like, 5,000+ Marines to 1,500+? And if the Templars are still called a Chapter...

 

Don't get me wrong, I get that SW players think the word Legion is cooler than Chapter (because, hey, it is cooler), but it's not really accurate in this instance. The Legions were between 10,000 and 250,000 in size, depending on sources. The closest to that is the Black Templars, and even they're not really all that close.

[Gree]

The Black Templars massively outnumber the Space Wolves, don't they? Like, 5,000+ Marines to 1,500+? And if the Templars are still called a Chapter...

 

Index Astartes gives us a rough estimation of 5-6,000 Templars, which is big. The Space Wolves are a big group, the Templars are big, but the Legions?

 

The Legions were massive. The whole theme, I think, of the 41st millenium and the pre-heresy was that the Legion were glorious, huge, things, the golden age of the Astartes. We don't see that sort of thing anymore since the modern Imperium is a shadow of it's former self in many ways.

[Schertenleib]

We are neither, we are the sons of Fenris, the wolfs of Russ, the protectors of mankind.

 

;)

 

But i say legion.

 

 

I'm going to sig. that Max. If you don't mind. Great quote.

[whitewolfmxc]

Ragnar refers to the Wolves as a ''Chapter'' repeatedly. The Wolves are refered to as a ''Chapter'' in the Codex. The word ''Chapter'' is used in Thunder fron Fenris.

 

And the Wolves really are not that big. Ragnar's company is stated to be the second largest after Grimnar's at 200 marines. Great Companies are nowhere near the size of chapters. The Wolves strength is probably around 1500-2000.

 

Lost Companies don't truely count since we don't know how many of them are and they are not really under Logan's command, not to forget the fact that resupply and recruitment would be difficult to say the least. Even with the lost companies added I doubt the Wolves are approaching anywhere next to Legion strength. The only chapter that I would give that honor to is the Black Templars.

 

 

I think legion is just a name but no i dont think SW should use legion at all , have we changed much since the heresy ? No . Do we answer to the Inquisition , F no . Do we even have to follow the little blue book if we dont want to ? HAHA dont make me laugh on that part, but do we want to cause another stupid war just because we like a name and wouldnt change it ? I dont think so

 

Of course we are called Chapter now a days , hey if just by changing a title can save us a lot of arguments with some up the Axx officials , hey its fine by us.

 

And saying Lost companies dont count is a bit funny , its like saying "I have 13 sons but really i only have 12 since theres one doesn't live with me or answer my calls" , and its exactly where you DONT know how many Lost companies are there that indicates there's a lot to start with ( if you only have a few you would know just how many but if theres just a lot and happens too often (which we do) you simply lose count ) and it was pretty clear there's quite an amount as for them to have a seat of the company symbol table chart (the blackened one) shows their volume

 

and its obvious we only had One split successor chapter and lets Assume we splited HALF a of a Half gone legion after all the fighting during the heresy , i still dont see how SW are only left with 2000 marines , so by maths it shows currently we would be around the 2000s , so what does that tells us ? The lost numbers are simply the numerous lost companies.

 

i believe thats just some way for us to not have any argument with the codex much , and simply "let" the "extras" leave and do their deeds unannounced

 

Also since we dont follow the codex , our initiates don't form scout (well actually for SW it would be blood claws) companies , they simply are reserves in the Fang till they get assigned to other companies during or after thier training so thats at Least another company worth of marines , also we have 2 reserve companies stationed just in the Fang for defenses and saving gene seeds for being all lost if we lose all the other officially counted companies.

 

not to mention our Real scouts , dont make thier own company either , they only answer to the Great wolf and their organization is unknown but we can assume thats at least another company worth of scouts

 

 

The Black Templars massively outnumber the Space Wolves, don't they? Like, 5,000+ Marines to 1,500+? And if the Templars are still called a Chapter...

 

Don't get me wrong, I get that SW players think the word Legion is cooler than Chapter (because, hey, it is cooler), but it's not really accurate in this instance. The Legions were between 10,000 and 250,000 in size, depending on sources. The closest to that is the Black Templars, and even they're not really all that close.

 

Actually i think Chapter is cooler than Legion , but thats just me for not want to sound what something the Roman / Greek Ultramarine's want to have.

 

Agree if you do "official" count Templar will have more count . but like i said if you count all the "run away pups" the numbers could vary a lot , and also if you count the Templars that are on crusades etc , the numbers are hard to compare without real solid count for both sides. So id say yeah officially the Templars have the win count XD

 

Off the record , we dont know

[Gree]

And saying Lost companies dont count is a bit funny , its like saying "I have 13 sons but really i only have 12 since theres one doesn't live with me or answer my calls" , and its exactly where you DONT know how many Lost companies are there that indicates there's a lot to start with ( if you only have a few you would know just how many but if theres just a lot and happens too often (which we do) you simply lose count ) and it was pretty clear there's quite an amount as for them to have a seat of the company symbol table chart (the blackened one) shows their volume

 

What are you talking about? there is no proof at all that there is a large amount of lost companies. The blackened seat on the Grand Annulus. It represents Great companies lost past and present. There is nothing on it indicating the current amount of Great Companies lost or their battle strength or capacities.

 

And it does not happen too often. From reading the Wolf Codex the Current Wolf Lords (With the exception of Ragnar) seem to have been around for a while now. Reading the Lost Companies article in White Dwarf actually implied it's something rare. thinking logicaly, companies far away from Fenris would have a hard time replacing numbers and recruiting, getting more difficult the further they go away.

 

The reason why you don't know how many companies are lost is not because of the number but because they are often in far places of the galaxy. The Lost Companies article in White Dwarf points out a Great Company went rogue since they are too far away and have lost contact with Fenris.

 

and its obvious we only had One split successor chapter and lets Assume we splited HALF a of a Half gone legion after all the fighting during the heresy , i still dont see how SW are only left with 2000 marines , so by maths it shows currently we would be around the 2000s , so what does that tells us ? The lost numbers are simply the numerous lost companies.

 

Ummmm, no. The codex says Ragnar's is the second biggest at almost 200 marines. Meaning that all the other Great Companies are less than that.

 

So depending on how big Grinnar's is (Porbably around 200-3000) I would say the Wolves barely clear 2000.

 

Not to mention you are making assumption with the size of the Space Wolves legion and the amount of losses they took. The Wolves took heavy losses during the Razing of Prospero and undoubtedly took more in the bloody fighting of the Scouring and Heresy.

 

Plus it was more due to their numbers that they were only able to divide once.

 

The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter.

 

Also since we dont follow the codex , our initiates don't form scout (well actually for SW it would be blood claws) companies , they simply are reserves in the Fang till they get assigned to other companies during or after thier training so thats at Least another company worth of marines , also we have 2 reserve companies stationed just in the Fang for defenses and saving gene seeds for being all lost if we lose all the other officially counted companies.

 

No, first of all, the waiting period appears to be short as Ragnar was assinged to Thunderfist's company shortl after the events of Space Wolf. And it's only one Great Company mentioned to garrison the Fang when the entire chapter goes away. It's not two reserve companies.

 

not to mention our Real scouts , dont make thier own company either , they only answer to the Great wolf and their organization is unknown but we can assume thats at least another company worth of scouts

 

The Space Wolf codex says they are a part of the Wolf Lord's Great Company, one Wolf Lord even has a scout-heavy company. So no.

[Ullr Direfang]

I got into this discussion with a DA player yesterday. He told me that there are a bunch of SM chapters that are still part of the DA chapter. I said "good for you, the Space Wolves may be seen as a Chapter but we are larger then most current chapters, are companies, as you call them leaving out the Great part, are larger then normal SM chapter companies. And if you want to get into call back the troops, the Space Wolves have numerous lost companies. (pause for effect) An Russ is still out there :D .

[Gree]

I got into this discussion with a DA player yesterday. He told me that there are a bunch of SM chapters that are still part of the DA chapter. I said "good for you, the Space Wolves may be seen as a Chapter but we are larger then most current chapters, are companies, as you call them leaving out the Great part, are larger then normal SM chapter companies. And if you want to get into call back the troops, the Space Wolves have numerous lost companies. (pause for effect) An Russ is still out there :D .

 

The difference is, in this case that the DA sucessors still follow thge orders of the Supreme Grand Master. The Lost Companies article makes it clear that the lost companies don't follow the Great Wolf at all. It's an actual breaking of an oath, not an extended vacation.

 

From reading the Ragnar books I get the impression that oath-breaking is quite serious in Fenrisian culture.

[Aurelius Rex]

The Space Wolves stopped being a legion and became a chapter when they split into two distinct chapters at the second founding. On this basis it could be theoretically argued that the only loyalist legion that remains is not the Space Wolves, but the Salamanders, as they didn't have enough marines to ever split. ;)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The Space Wolves stopped being a legion and became a chapter when they split into two distinct chapters at the second founding. On this basis it could be theoretically argued that the only loyalist legion that remains is not the Space Wolves, but the Salamanders, as they didn't have enough marines to ever split. :lol:

 

Ooo... Clever!

[whitewolfmxc]

And saying Lost companies dont count is a bit funny , its like saying "I have 13 sons but really i only have 12 since theres one doesn't live with me or answer my calls" , and its exactly where you DONT know how many Lost companies are there that indicates there's a lot to start with ( if you only have a few you would know just how many but if theres just a lot and happens too often (which we do) you simply lose count ) and it was pretty clear there's quite an amount as for them to have a seat of the company symbol table chart (the blackened one) shows their volume

 

What are you talking about? there is no proof at all that there is a large amount of lost companies. The blackened seat on the Grand Annulus. It represents Great companies lost past and present. There is nothing on it indicating the current amount of Great Companies lost or their battle strength or capacities.

 

And it does not happen too often. From reading the Wolf Codex the Current Wolf Lords (With the exception of Ragnar) seem to have been around for a while now. Reading the Lost Companies article in White Dwarf actually implied it's something rare. thinking logicaly, companies far away from Fenris would have a hard time replacing numbers and recruiting, getting more difficult the further they go away.

 

The reason why you don't know how many companies are lost is not because of the number but because they are often in far places of the galaxy. The Lost Companies article in White Dwarf points out a Great Company went rogue since they are too far away and have lost contact with Fenris.

 

 

Exactly , there's NO prof of How many lost companies are there , so what makes you more right than i am for saying them having low count ? I didnt say the blackened seat indicates strength of any sort , all i said was if it was too little to concern it wouldn't be there in the first place , when i say Volume i meant they were enough for the chapter to record such events , and i quote the description "The black name stone ...represent...Great companies...lost on campaign or recanted thier oaths of fealty " 5th ed SW codex (sorry for being lazy)

 

yes each current wolf lord has been around for a couple hundred years except Ragnar , but how long has Russ left ? way longer than that , you cant say its not possible to have a large out take on these companies suddenly instead of answering to their primarch they have to answer to another wolf lord and they sure dont like it at least in those early years

 

Losing contact and going Rogue (and i assume you mean still loyal but no accountable) may always be the same thing , but here it is if that company has lost contact for too long , it is also Logical that the Fang will create another company to fill in the 12 limit (i dont recall any piece of fluff saying at one point SW was under 12th companies) and does that mean that lost company isnt SW anymore ? No , simply they were replaced by another for practical usage , and do these lost company come back sometimes ? yes they do , but they no longer count as one of the 12th companies . so i dont see your logic on you dont know how many are lost because they are too far ? Of course you know , once you lost contact its arleady suspected to be lost in the first place dont you think ? And like i said , the longer they are lost , the more chance for them getting replaced.

 

 

 

 

 

and its obvious we only had One split successor chapter and lets Assume we splited HALF a of a Half gone legion after all the fighting during the heresy , i still dont see how SW are only left with 2000 marines , so by maths it shows currently we would be around the 2000s , so what does that tells us ? The lost numbers are simply the numerous lost companies.

 

Ummmm, no. The codex says Ragnar's is the second biggest at almost 200 marines. Meaning that all the other Great Companies are less than that.

 

So depending on how big Grinnar's is (Porbably around 200-3000) I would say the Wolves barely clear 2000.

 

Not to mention you are making assumption with the size of the Space Wolves legion and the amount of losses they took. The Wolves took heavy losses during the Razing of Prospero and undoubtedly took more in the bloody fighting of the Scouring and Heresy.

 

Plus it was more due to their numbers that they were only able to divide once.

 

Yes others are smaller , but even at 150 per company thats 150 X 10 companies , 1500 + Ragnar for say 200 + Logan (lets say 250)+ plus reserves companies + Blood claws that arent assigned yet = thats at least 2000 + so unless i really suck at counting i dont see your point

 

Like your other post about pre heresy SW , even after all those said battles , Russ still had 6000 wolves , so whats your point on saying im assuming 2000+ is a far stretch ? They were only to divide once is because Russ said (and no im not quoting) "No , screw you and your book , fine you want to look good in your report card , ok ill give you something to work with" that said thing to work with is that only successor chapter and also because Russ would have already known what would happen to them beforehand dues not agreeing on splitting dozens of other splinter chapters.

 

 

 

The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter.

 

Also since we dont follow the codex , our initiates don't form scout (well actually for SW it would be blood claws) companies , they simply are reserves in the Fang till they get assigned to other companies during or after thier training so thats at Least another company worth of marines , also we have 2 reserve companies stationed just in the Fang for defenses and saving gene seeds for being all lost if we lose all the other officially counted companies.

 

No, first of all, the waiting period appears to be short as Ragnar was assinged to Thunderfist's company shortl after the events of Space Wolf. And it's only one Great Company mentioned to garrison the Fang when the entire chapter goes away. It's not two reserve companies.

 

Argh i read that book not too long ago , i recall Ragnar got assigned fast was because he and his mates did indeed kill a chaos champ..........still it took him a few decades to be assigned (that i dont remember exact count but it would be more than a century like maybe 150 years)

 

Also even if the time was short , whats your point ? because they dont stay long they dont exist ? and they dont count ? Also SW recruit very often to fill in the gaps as every year tribes will fight over land before winter and thats when they get recruited , like how ragnar got into.

not to mention our Real scouts , dont make thier own company either , they only answer to the Great wolf and their organization is unknown but we can assume thats at least another company worth of scouts

 

The Space Wolf codex says they are a part of the Wolf Lord's Great Company, one Wolf Lord even has a scout-heavy company. So no.

 

And how does that contradict what i said ? quote "they answer only to the great wolf"........... and how am i wrong when all the scouts are concentrated and they arent at least one company strong ?

 

which Wolf lord are we talking about ? cause ive really somehow missed that part , also i dont see how that is contradicting what i said , so your saying a great company that is scout heavy contradict for what i said scouts are at least one company strong adding all up ?

[Gree]

....what is this? I'm sorry but this reads very clunky. Don't use color when responding please.

 

Exactly , there's NO prof of How many lost companies are there , so what makes you more right than i am for saying them having low count ?

 

Supply difficulties and lack of recruits from Fenris to work with the Canis Helix. That far away they would not last long, especially when considering the backgroud implies that only Fenrisians can accept the Canis Helix. Or at least that's the implication I got.

 

I didnt say the blackened seat indicates strength of any sort , all i said was if it was too little to concern it wouldn't be there in the first place , when i say Volume i meant they were enough for the chapter to record such events , and i quote the description "The black name stone ...represent...Great companies...lost on campaign or recanted thier oaths of fealty " 5th ed SW codex (sorry for being lazy)

 

Of course, a company leaving a chapter would have a moneumental event. The Blood Ravens had only a single company lost and then regard it as a horrible thing.

 

No , simply they were replaced by another for practical usage , and do these lost company come back sometimes ? yes they do

 

Nope that is your assumption. Given the fact that they are recorded as breaking their oaths, and Fenrisian culture, I doubt they would come back. Indeed, it's noted many of those companies are too far to come back. Not to mention it is said that accusing a company of ''Walking the 13th'' is a grave thing.

 

Of course you know , once you lost contact its arleady suspected to be lost in the first place dont you think ? And like i said , the longer they are lost , the more chance for them getting replaced.

 

And how does this change the fact that they no longer fight alongside the main chapter or fight for the Wolf Lord?

 

Not to mention you ignored my points about recruitment and supply difficulties

 

Yes others are smaller , but even at 150 per company thats 150 X 10 companies , 1500 + Ragnar for say 200 + Logan (lets say 250)+ plus reserves companies + Blood claws that arent assigned yet = thats at least 2000 + so unless i really suck at counting i dont see your point

 

Yes, you do, there is no such thing as the reserve companies you are making up. I see it mentioned nowhere in Wolf fluff. A great company mans the Fang while the rest go to war.

 

Like your other post about pre heresy SW , even after all those said battles , Russ still had 6000 wolves ,

 

Actually that was just the Battle of Prospero, you have the rest of the Heresy and the Scouring to go.

 

so whats your point on saying im assuming 2000+ is a far stretch ?

 

Yes you clearly did not read my post carefully.

 

Regardless, 2000, even 3000, is still far smaller than any legion.

 

They were only to divide once is because Russ said (and no im not quoting) "No , screw you and your book , fine you want to look good in your report card , ok ill give you something to work with" that said thing to work with is that only successor chapter and also because Russ would have already known what would happen to them beforehand dues not agreeing on splitting dozens of other splinter chapters.[

 

Um, no, the quote I provided implies that it was due to size.

 

Argh i read that book not too long ago , i recall Ragnar got assigned fast was because he and his mates did indeed kill a chaos champ..........still it took him a few decades to be assigned (that i dont remember exact count but it would be less than half a century)

 

No, reading Ragnar's Claw it was implied to be quite soon, I don't know where you are getting that from.

 

 

maybe it was one Great company (but i recall the older codex's say two , but what ever) one is still one , you cant deny the fact they exist.

 

Where did I deny they did not exist? Iwas pointing out ti was one of the 12 Great Companies that manned the Fang, not a ''reserve company that you made up.''

 

And how does that contradict what i said ? quote "they answer only to the great wolf"........... and how am i wrong when all the scouts are concentrated and they arent at least one company strong ?

 

The 5th edition codex says that one of the Wolf Lords, Erik Morkai favors scouts, thus implying they are part of company strucutre. He is refered to as their ''master''.

[OnlyInDeath]

Wow, way to take a fun topic and start up yet another SW numbers argument. You realize that this has been going on for over a DECADE. There is no real proof, one way or another, as to the solid number of Wolves left in the world. Lost companies do exist, there's no number of them EVER put down, so you both are arguing over speculation. There's no number of bloodclaws in training ever given, just that there are multiple camps for the training of initiates spread across Asaheim, and they have a constant stream of new recruits coming in and bloodclaw candidates going out. The size of a great company varies from one moment to the next changing from casualties in war, resupply of bloodclaws, the changing of a wolf lord, etc. Even though the new dex is as bold as to state Ragnar's is "large" with 200 wolves, I think it's rather silly to ever put a solid number on a Great Company that has high numbers of Bloodclaws in its ranks, as their numbers would fluctuate greatly.

 

In the end, we don't really care what our numbers are. The fact that there are uncounted and unknown Lost companies out there battling in the name of Russ warms our hearts. The fact that we can field twelve Great Companies on the field of battle, bringing to bear the Emperor's wrath on any enemy of the Empire of Man strengthens our resolve. The fact that one Great Company battles in the Eye of Terror itself, taking the fight to the archenemy in it's own lair gives us pride. The fact that our Russ himself is out there somewhere, fighting the good fight gives us hope.

 

By any other name, we are the VI Legion. Deal with it.

 

Now grab an ale, grab some food, and enjoy yourself. No petty arguing in these halls.