Legion or Chapter

[Tograth]

Hey Gree, check your facts. The wolf lords dont ever swear an oath to the great wolf as an entity - they swear oaths of allegiance to Russ, the emperor, and as a far third, to the individual great wolf at the time. If a great wolf dies, then the wolf lords swear to him. If they do not want to, they can take their company out of the fang. The company still remains space wolves, are still loyal to Russ and the emperor, but just do not agree with the current great wolf and are not oath breakers in the least if they choose not to swear to the new great wolf.

[Gree]

Hey Gree, check your facts. The wolf lords dont ever swear an oath to the great wolf as an entity - they swear oaths of allegiance to Russ, the emperor, and as a far third, to the individual great wolf at the time. If a great wolf dies, then the wolf lords swear to him. If they do not want to, they can take their company out of the fang. The company still remains space wolves, are still loyal to Russ and the emperor, but just do not agree with the current great wolf and are not oath breakers in the least if they choose not to swear to the new great wolf.

 

They don't swear an oath of loyalty to the great wolf? But then they do? Make up your mind man.

[clanfield]

i just refer to mine simply as the wolves puts the bejessus up my group:)

[Lord Ragnarok]

Well I could see internally calling ourselves a legion but externally chapter. But mostly I don't think we care. That's trivial business only the likes of Ultras and their rigid, regimen of stiff backness to care about. I think we are more practical. Simple but practical.

 

"Where's the enemy? Let's kill them, let's feast and brawl after victory."

[Vassakov]

Hey Gree, check your facts. The wolf lords dont ever swear an oath to the great wolf as an entity - they swear oaths of allegiance to Russ, the emperor, and as a far third, to the individual great wolf at the time. If a great wolf dies, then the wolf lords swear to him. If they do not want to, they can take their company out of the fang. The company still remains space wolves, are still loyal to Russ and the emperor, but just do not agree with the current great wolf and are not oath breakers in the least if they choose not to swear to the new great wolf.

 

They don't swear an oath of loyalty to the great wolf? But then they do? Make up your mind man.

 

They don't, as such. They swear an oath of loyalty to Russ and the All Father, but the Great Wolf is deemed to be proxy to these two. They don't follow him, but they acknowledge him as the Alpha male in lieu of any higher power. However, the crucial difference is that should a Great Wolf be deemed to be acting against the interests of Russ, the Emperor or the Legion then the other Wolf Lords can and (probably) will remove him fairly swiftly. It hasn't actually happened yet.

 

What this all means is that in the event of a significant disagreement between an individual Wolf Lord and the Great Wolf, then the Wolf Lord can withdraw from the Fang and be considered to be acting solely in the name of Russ and the All Father without being a traitor to the Legion, which is almost unthinkable in most Chapters.

[Gree]

Hey Gree, check your facts. The wolf lords dont ever swear an oath to the great wolf as an entity - they swear oaths of allegiance to Russ, the emperor, and as a far third, to the individual great wolf at the time. If a great wolf dies, then the wolf lords swear to him. If they do not want to, they can take their company out of the fang. The company still remains space wolves, are still loyal to Russ and the emperor, but just do not agree with the current great wolf and are not oath breakers in the least if they choose not to swear to the new great wolf.

 

They don't swear an oath of loyalty to the great wolf? But then they do? Make up your mind man.

 

They don't, as such. They swear an oath of loyalty to Russ and the All Father, but the Great Wolf is deemed to be proxy to these two. They don't follow him, but they acknowledge him as the Alpha male in lieu of any higher power. However, the crucial difference is that should a Great Wolf be deemed to be acting against the interests of Russ, the Emperor or the Legion then the other Wolf Lords can and (probably) will remove him fairly swiftly. It hasn't actually happened yet.

 

What this all means is that in the event of a significant disagreement between an individual Wolf Lord and the Great Wolf, then the Wolf Lord can withdraw from the Fang and be considered to be acting solely in the name of Russ and the All Father without being a traitor to the Legion, which is almost unthinkable in most Chapters.

 

The Space Wolves Chapter is made up of a dozen Great Companies, all of whom owe allegiance to the Chapter's commander, the Great Wolf. Space Wolf Great Companies are rather larger than the companies found in other Space Marine Chapters and are much more self-sufficient. In most ways, each Great Company is a separate army in its own right, and it is very rare for members of one Great Company to be placed under the command of leaders from another. All Space Wolves are headstrong and in the past this has even led to a Wolf Lord forswearing his oath of fealty to the Great Wolf and striking out on his own. This last happened in 815.M41, when Great Wolf Sven Ironhand revoked his oath and led his Great Company into exile on the Eastern Fringes. He was declared outlaw by Logan Grimnar, and a new Great Company was raised to replace the one that was lost. Some say that Sven went on to carve out an Empire in the Eastern Fringes and rules there to this day.

 

Really?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

what that last quote really says to me is that the Wolves can create Great Companies as the situtation demands...so if they needed to buff their actual strength is isnt impossible.

 

WLK

[Gree]

what that last quote really says to me is that the Wolves can create Great Companies as the situtation demands...so if they needed to buff their actual strength is isnt impossible.

 

WLK

 

But that's not the current strength of the main chapter however. Plus creating more companies would been essentialy ignoring Russ's traditions and the Annulus.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

what that last quote really says to me is that the Wolves can create Great Companies as the situtation demands...so if they needed to buff their actual strength is isnt impossible.

 

WLK

 

But that's not the current strength of the main chapter however. Plus creating more companies would been essentialy ignoring Russ's traditions and the Annulus.

 

Yea, cause following traditions is our strongest skill.

 

and remember that we have always been 12 Great Companies, but the size used to be alot bigger...ALOT.

 

WLK

[Vassakov]

This would be the Annulus with the black stone that represents all lost companies?

 

It is as I said - there are 12 Great Companies sworn to the Great Wolf, but that oath is somewhat... malleable. Companies can forswear this oath and strike out on their own if the Wolf Lords have a disagreement, at which point a new Company is raised. This is fairly well established fluff, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? :D

[Gree]

This would be the Annulus with the black stone that represents all lost companies?

 

It is as I said - there are 12 Great Companies sworn to the Great Wolf, but that oath is somewhat... malleable. Companies can forswear this oath and strike out on their own if the Wolf Lords have a disagreement, at which point a new Company is raised. This is fairly well established fluff, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? :lol:

 

I believed the assertion was by Kieran that they needed to buff the actual strength of the chapter by increasing the number of marines. I don't think that making a new great company is an easy thing, considering how much resources are put into Astartes, so the Space Wolves strength is normally kept in check by a flow of casualties and recruits.

 

I thought he was implying the creation of more than 12 Great Companies for the chapter actual.

 

and remember that we have always been 12 Great Companies, but the size used to be alot bigger...ALOT.

 

WLK

 

Alot, by twice as much from my estimates from a Thousand Sons.

[Vassakov]

This would be the Annulus with the black stone that represents all lost companies?

 

It is as I said - there are 12 Great Companies sworn to the Great Wolf, but that oath is somewhat... malleable. Companies can forswear this oath and strike out on their own if the Wolf Lords have a disagreement, at which point a new Company is raised. This is fairly well established fluff, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? :)

 

I believed the assertion was by Kieran that they needed to buff the actual strength of the chapter by increasing the number of marines. I don't think that making a new great company is an easy thing, considering how much resources are put into Astartes, so the Space Wolves strength is normally kept in check by a flow of casualties and recruits.

 

I thought he was implying the creation of more than 12 Great Companies for the chapter actual.

 

Ah, fair enough. The actual business of how a new Great Company is raised is often skipped over a bit in the fluff, I think they simply elect a new Wolf Lord from the ranks and provide him with the core of a Great Company.

 

But the argument between the size of the actual, "normal" Chapter (probably around 2,000 Marines) and the "Legion" - including Lost Companies, the 13th Co. and other groups like that - is still based on hypothetical figures we are pulling out of thin air. The answer is that there is no answer.

[Verseau]

The wolves are a chapter, as calling yourself a Legion would get the BIG I after you, as the only Legions left are all Chaos....

 

Like it'd matter!!!

don't you remember ? the big I once had tried and failed trying to go to the Fang.

[edit: the year is 886.M41]

if they don't like us, let's them try again come to the Fang.

We can make a good use of the exercise.

[Beef]

Somebody said ragnar great company was second only to Grimnars which boasted 200 SW. Well it could be taken in terms of Ragnars company being second only to grimnars in victory or martial prowess of fame. Its does not spesically state its second only in no. So we dont know how many Sw in Ragnars company or any other Wolf lords. All we know is grimnars has 200 or so.

 

As for SW being a small legion, lets put it into perspective with facts we know according to written material. An average legion pre heresy was 100,000 marines. The largest was 250,000 (ultras) the smallest was the sallies at 30,000.

 

So the Sw were small but not smaller than the sallies so they would have been between 30,000 - 100,000.

 

As for the lost companies not all have forsworn their oaths of allegiance, some are just lost in the warp. Nobody knows the streghth off the 13th. so Sw no of whom are still loyal could vary so calling them legion is not out of the question.

 

As for the wolf brothers we SW know Russ never split his legion, and if he did he filled it with genetic regects. how else does a whole chapter just blink out of existance and suffer chapter wide mutation. Mutation dammit NOT the Wulfen type.

 

I also agree that this topic has been debated for over 10 years with no outcome and what started as a fun topic has suddenly turned into a "I am right and you are wrong"

 

So I will leave it with Only Russ and the EMP knows how many SW there.

for the 2nd edition purests we are a Chapter as the the King books state and for some they are as close to gospel. For some we are legion.

 

For all the non Sw players who disagree, just relax have an ale, get drunk and see things our way

[Gree]

Somebody said ragnar great company was second only to Grimnars which boasted 200 SW. Well it could be taken in terms of Ragnars company being second only to grimnars in victory or martial prowess of fame. Its does not spesically state its second only in no. So we dont know how many Sw in Ragnars company or any other Wolf lords. All we know is grimnars has 200 or so.

 

As for SW being a small legion, lets put it into perspective with facts we know according to written material. An average legion pre heresy was 100,000 marines. The largest was 250,000 (ultras) the smallest was the sallies at 30,000.

 

So the Sw were small but not smaller than the sallies so they would have been between 30,000 - 100,000.

 

Actually Index Astartes claims the legions are at 10,000. A Thousand Sons lists both the SW and the TS with 10,000. It's been contridicted by various sources, so the whole legion numbers thing is a mess.

[Marshal Rohr]

Either way you slice it, the space wolves are still a Chapter. Chapter is just nomenclature and has no true bearing on the conduct if the marines themselves. Ask any Imperial Fist if the Legion ever truly went away......

[Beef]

Somebody said ragnar great company was second only to Grimnars which boasted 200 SW. Well it could be taken in terms of Ragnars company being second only to grimnars in victory or martial prowess of fame. Its does not spesically state its second only in no. So we dont know how many Sw in Ragnars company or any other Wolf lords. All we know is grimnars has 200 or so.

 

As for SW being a small legion, lets put it into perspective with facts we know according to written material. An average legion pre heresy was 100,000 marines. The largest was 250,000 (ultras) the smallest was the sallies at 30,000.

 

So the Sw were small but not smaller than the sallies so they would have been between 30,000 - 100,000.

 

Actually Index Astartes claims the legions are at 10,000. A Thousand Sons lists both the SW and the TS with 10,000. It's been contridicted by various sources, so the whole legion numbers thing is a mess.

 

 

Index astartes is outdated. Whilst the horus heresy visions claim it to be the figures I have stated.

Now lets be honest with ourselves, whats seems like a legion, 100,000 or 10,000? I know which I prefer.

are you refering to the new hersy novel prospero burns for your figures or the index astertes books. If its the latter than its outdated and has been retconned

 

Also welcome to the discussion Marshal2 Crusaders, how many times have you seen this debated. Atleast every 3 months for the lasy 10 years :cuss

And I agree legions dont just go away, Just dont tell Guillaman that ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Legion v. Chapter debates are like poison ivy. You know you shouldn't but it just feels sooooo good to scratch :lol: .

 

 

I have been working on a formula for them. First, you have a new poster or disgruntled veteran who decides that Legion sounds waaaay cooler then Chapter, so they start a topic about how they should still be a legion. Then someone comes in and says chapters are better and they should stop having delusions of grandeur, to which someone or the OP will come in with: but 100,000 marines are waaaay cooler. Then Legatus or Gree will come in with the IA articles, which someone will dismiss as outdated or stupid. In this case it is just outdated :o. Then the legion size debate commences until a mod stops it. Then someone complains about the Codex, and we all no where that will lead. Luckily this is the Space Wolf forum and they know better than to come up in here :lol:.

 

As a side note: this is what Thundewolves and Canis encourage! First you have that silliness, and next thing I know you guys are debating about organizational titles!! What's next? How to paint proper assault squad markings. :huh:

[Gree]

Index astartes is outdated.

 

Says you, are you Alan Merrett?

 

 

Index astartes is outdated. Whilst the horus heresy visions claim it to be the figures I have stated.

Now lets be honest with ourselves, whats seems like a legion, 100,000 or 10,000? I know which I prefer.

 

It's not about preferance, but what little is stated about the Wolves.

 

are you refering to the new hersy novel prospero burns for your figures or the index astertes books. If its the latter than its outdated and has been retconned

 

Prospero Burns will not be relased in another year or so I am using a Thousand Sons.

 

And no, they have no been retconned, if they are present in the codices.

 

And Codex Space Wolves says the Wolves numbered 10,000 men, along with the main Marine codex (contridicted by the Chaos Codeex) as well as the novels.

[Vassakov]

As a side note: this is what Thundewolves and Canis encourage! First you have that silliness, and next thing I know you guys are debating about organizational titles!! What's next? How to paint proper assault squad markings. :P

 

We have a real assault squad marking - it's known as the Canis Helix! :lol:

 

Gree is in this case probably correct, most source material seems to give about 10,000 as a ballpark figure (though 13 companies of 1,000 men would seem to make more sense...) With the losses incurred during the Heresy and a lack of any substantial recruiting grounds (ie only Fenris) I could see the Wolves being around 2,000 strong at present.

[Beef]

Index astartes is outdated.

 

Says you, are you Alan Merrett?

 

 

Index astartes is outdated. Whilst the horus heresy visions claim it to be the figures I have stated.

Now lets be honest with ourselves, whats seems like a legion, 100,000 or 10,000? I know which I prefer.

 

It's not about preferance, but what little is stated about the Wolves.

 

are you refering to the new hersy novel prospero burns for your figures or the index astertes books. If its the latter than its outdated and has been retconned

 

Prospero Burns will not be relased in another year or so I am using a Thousand Sons.

 

And no, they have no been retconned, if they are present in the codices.

 

And Codex Space Wolves says the Wolves numbered 10,000 men, along with the main Marine codex (contridicted by the Chaos Codeex) as well as the novels.

 

 

Usually when it comes to things being outdated it works like this, something printed in 1990 becomes outdated when something printed in 1999 on the same topic with variences. So something printed in 2010 will supersede the 2 previous versions. As for index astartes being outdated, it is, most of the info in their is redundent now. Its just a guidline now. Its like a basic guide for marine players, it is not an extensive one.

 

Therefore vision of heresy being newer than index astartes overides it. If not then to Hell with all the argumenst as Russ is not even a Primarch.

 

If its states in the new SW codex that they were 10,000 strong pre heresy could you tell me which page thats stated on as I must have missed it.

if its in the SM codex as well it does not make the point any more correct. The Sm codex dont give you much info on the heresy as it is. For proper info try the Collected Visions books as those were solely intended for the heresey and pre heresy era. These books gave names and figures from which authors have taken characters from them an put them into the heresy novels.

 

Also at what stage were they 10,000 strong? does it say that? initially at first recruitment, midway or just before the heresy. You see the emps children started off only 1000 strong (if I recall correctly and were assigned to horus untill their numbers grew) But seeing as this is the only figure given for the EMPS children are we to assume thats as large as they got. Legion figures increased at various stages so whilst the SW legion could have started out as 10,000 nobody can say with certainty it stayed at that figure.

[Gree]

Usually when it comes to things being outdated it works like this, something printed in 1990 becomes outdated when something printed in 1999 on the same topic with variences. So something printed in 2010 will supersede the 2 previous versions. As for index astartes being outdated, it is, most of the info in their is redundent now. Its just a guidline now. Its like a basic guide for marine players, it is not an extensive one.

 

So in other words, your opinion? Okay, thanks just so we can clear this up.

 

Therefore vision of heresy being newer than index astartes overides it. If not then to Hell with all the argumenst as Russ is not even a Primarch.

 

Leman Russ is not a primarch? Dude, seriously do you even read the fluff at all?

 

If its states in the new SW codex that they were 10,000 strong pre heresy could you tell me which page thats stated on as I must have missed it.

 

Pg.9

 

if its in the SM codex as well it does not make the point any more correct. The Sm codex dont give you much info on the heresy as it is. For proper info try the Collected Visions books as those were solely intended for the heresey and pre heresy era. These books gave names and figures from which authors have taken characters from them an put them into the heresy novels.

 

Again, your opinion.

 

Also at what stage were they 10,000 strong? does it say that?

 

Right at Aghoru.

 

, midway or just before the heresy.

 

Just before the Heresy.

 

You see the emps children started off only 1000 strong (if I recall correctly and were assigned to horus untill their numbers grew)

 

200 actually, they were implies to be around 10,000-15,000 when the Heresy hit.

 

But seeing as this is the only figure given for the EMPS children are we to assume thats as large as they got.

 

Ummmm, no.

 

Legion figures increased at various stages so whilst the SW legion could have started out as 10,000 nobody can say with certainty it stayed at that figure.

 

You really did not read the Heresy novels did you?

[Beef]

Usually when it comes to things being outdated it works like this, something printed in 1990 becomes outdated when something printed in 1999 on the same topic with variences. So something printed in 2010 will supersede the 2 previous versions. As for index astartes being outdated, it is, most of the info in their is redundent now. Its just a guidline now. Its like a basic guide for marine players, it is not an extensive one.

 

So in other words, your opinion? Okay, thanks just so we can clear this up.

 

Therefore vision of heresy being newer than index astartes overides it. If not then to Hell with all the argumenst as Russ is not even a Primarch.

 

Leman Russ is not a primarch? Dude, seriously do you even read the fluff at all?

 

Actually Gree see this thread for what I meen about Russ being a marine commander in rogue trader days.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=194737

 

If its states in the new SW codex that they were 10,000 strong pre heresy could you tell me which page thats stated on as I must have missed it.

 

Pg.9

 

if its in the SM codex as well it does not make the point any more correct. The Sm codex dont give you much info on the heresy as it is. For proper info try the Collected Visions books as those were solely intended for the heresey and pre heresy era. These books gave names and figures from which authors have taken characters from them an put them into the heresy novels.

 

Again, your opinion.

 

Also at what stage were they 10,000 strong? does it say that?

 

Right at Aghoru. Where does it say that?

 

, midway or just before the heresy.

 

Just before the Heresy.

 

You see the emps children started off only 1000 strong (if I recall correctly and were assigned to horus untill their numbers grew)

 

200 actually, they were implies to be around 10,000-15,000 when the Heresy hit.

 

Yes you are right they were 200 strong initially, I was at work and did not rememeber the figure correctly but how do you work out they were 10,000 - 15K strong come heresy time??

 

 

But seeing as this is the only figure given for the EMPS children are we to assume thats as large as they got.

 

Ummmm, no.

 

This was retorical Gree, my point was just because it was the only figure give, (200) we cant say thats all they had, nor can we say well actually they had 10,000 unless it spesifically states they had that many, Not a genereic Space marine legions were 10,000 strong and chapters are 1000 strong, we know this to be false

 

Legion figures increased at various stages so whilst the SW legion could have started out as 10,000 nobody can say with certainty it stayed at that figure.

 

You really did not read the Heresy novels did you?

 

 

 

Yes I did, which are you refering to in particular as I have read an own all of them to date

Well the space wolves legion was comprised of 13 great comapnies, each one a sizable army numbering many thousands of warriors@ page 12 collected vision vol III

So many thousands if taken as meening 2 thousand we would still have had 26,000 minimum. so 10,000 cant be right

 

Are we reading from the same codex? page 9, I must must be missing something as I cant find it, maybe its my age and I am going blind, I cant see any figures apart from 10,000 years ago.

 

Where are you getting your info from, I am not being an arse I am curious so that if what you say is correct I would like to see for myself.

 

All this debate is as much my opinion as it is yours.

[Walter Payton]

Therefore vision of heresy being newer than index astartes overides it. If not then to Hell with all the argumenst as Russ is not even a Primarch.

 

Leman Russ is not a primarch? Dude, seriously do you even read the fluff at all?

 

What he means is that some older sources have to be ignored, because the information given, taken in the context of the more modern 40k universe, is idiotic. He then uses the example of Commander Leman Russ of the Space Wolves Legion, who are based on the world of Lucan, led by Imperial Commander Lucan Enoch and Commander Storm, as given in Rogue Trader, so actually, he has read more fluff than you, evidently. :D

 

"Avoid the instinct of fight first and think later." (Meditations, Book VI)

 

How likely is the current incarnation of Russ to say that, and to write a book called Meditations?

 

(*Stops being snarky)

 

Didn't Merrett say that all fluff in the Horus Heresy Novels overrides all the fluff that has already been written about it. So the Legion sizes given in those novels should be taken as canon, and, anyway, the higher figures are more plausible, considering the size of the Galaxy.

[Gree]

Well the space wolves legion was comprised of 13 great comapnies, each one a sizable army numbering many thousands of warriors@ page 123 collected vision vol III

 

Contridicted by a Thousand Sons and both codices.

 

So many thousands if taken as meening 2 thousand we would still have had 26,000 minimum. so 10,000 cant be right

 

Really? Are you suprised that GW has contridicted itself.

 

Actually we have had a Black Library author on here, A-D-B confirming the 10,000 man numbers for the Heresy.

 

Are we reading from the same codex? page 9, I must must be missing something as I cant find it, maybe its my age and I am going blind, I cant see any figures apart from 10,000 years ago.

 

I don't know, mine says ''ten thousand or more warriors''. It's pretty clear to me.

 

Where are you getting your info from, I am not being an arse I am curious so that if what you say is correct I would like to see for myself.

 

It appears to be you.

 

All this debate is as much my opinion as it is yours.

 

Not really, you are taking once source as fact while I am simply pointing out that it has been heavily contridicted by the Heresy novels and the Codices.

 

Therefore vision of heresy being newer than index astartes overides it. If not then to Hell with all the argumenst as Russ is not even a Primarch.

 

Leman Russ is not a primarch? Dude, seriously do you even read the fluff at all?

 

What he means is that some older sources have to be ignored, because the information given, taken in the context of the more modern 40k universe, is idiotic. He then uses the example of Commander Leman Russ of the Space Wolves Legion, who are based on the world of Lucan, led by Imperial Commander Lucan Enoch and Commander Storm, as given in Rogue Trader, so actually, he has read more fluff than you, evidently. :P

 

"Avoid the instinct of fight first and think later." (Meditations, Book VI)

 

How likely is the current incarnation of Russ to say that, and to write a book called Meditations?

 

Oh, I've read the Rogue Trader fluff, what he is ignoring is that the Heresy novels and current codices draw heavily from the Index Astartes articles. ;)

 

Didn't Merrett say that all fluff in the Horus Heresy Novels overrides all the fluff that has already been written about it. So the Legion sizes given in those novels should be taken as canon, and, anyway, the higher figures are more plausible, considering the size of the Galaxy.

 

So wait, the 10,000 man figures in the novels are right? So I'm right? Thanks. :D