Devestators

[IronDuke]

So I was just thinking about the best way to run devestators in my army. At present I have a 7 man squad with 4 missile launchers. Once the first two ablative marines are gone and you take another wound however, you have the choice of whether to lose the chance of a BS5 shot, or an extra heavy weapon shot per turn.

 

As a general rule I imagine you would remove the sergeant and forgo the chance to use the signum. Especially with my loadout versus horde armies, the extra blast template will prove more useful than the shot at the higher ballistic skill.

 

Are there any circumstances however when you would remove the extra heavy weapon trooper so you can carry on using the signum? It doesn't have to be limited to the above weapon loadout, I just want to know other peoples views!

Cheers, ID

[Sparhawk]

If you have four shots at BS4 you should average 2-2/3 hits

 

If you have 2 BS4 shots and one BS5 you should average 2-1/6 hits.

 

Wounds will fall out as normal so there is a not insignificant improvement for having the extra shot vs the higher BS. I'd personally say goodbye to sarge rather than lose the heavy weapon.

[Mysticaria]

If your squad has a lascanon in it then maybe. With four of the same weapons then I think its better to risk the sergeant, but I occassionally run 1x lascanon 3x missile in a ten-man squad (with the option to combat squad) and with that kind of build it is worth it to keep the BS5 lascanon up and running as long as possible.

 

-Myst

[Koremu]

The Signum is fairly equal to a Missile Launcher. But if like me you like to take a Power Sword on the Sergeant, having the Signum means that you don't lose significant firepower when you have to make the choice.

[Voltaire]

Depending on the situation really... I would say maybe when shooting at enemy eldar or something... Pardon me if you please, I am simply attempting to recollect which vehicles make shooting difficult... I cannot bring any to mind... ;)

 

 

 

Actually, If an enemy MC/IC was in a position that could cause significant harm to you, and was severely weakened due to prior combat (e.g. One wound remaining/Retinue destroyed.) and the most convenient way of ridding yourself of a nuisance was by Las-cannon you would certainly desire a higher ballistics skill, no? :P

 

 

But that is a rather unlikely situation. :D

[Sparhawk]

See the point is that if you are running a squad of devs all with the same weapons then you would still have a better chance of hitting, and thereby wounding, a unit with an extra attack instead of the higher BS.

 

I know it seems counterintuitive but the 1/6th increase in to hit doesn't balance out the loss of fire weight. Obviously other considerations could be based on Sgt loadout and how close the unit is to being assaulted where sarge can really shine. Also, like everything in this wonderful game, it is a very situational call that no amount of mathammering can answer for, I would just like to point out that in most situations (I think) the difference between a ML and a LC isn't very noticeable unless firing at AV13+.

[Frosty the Pyro]

With 5th eds wound alocation you dont always have a choice, (as a mater of fact you will statisticly lose a missle launcher before the serge, baring unsavable wounds which will obviously go on the serge), but when you do, losing the serge is going to be the beter choice.

 

Actually, If an enemy MC/IC was in a position that could cause significant harm to you, and was severely weakened due to prior combat (e.g. One wound remaining/Retinue destroyed.) and the most convenient way of ridding yourself of a nuisance was by Las-cannon you would certainly desire a higher ballistics skill, no?

No, you would desire an extra shot. Two dice have a higher chance of rolling at least one 4+ than one dice has rolling a 5+

[IronDuke]

With 5th eds wound alocation you dont always have a choice, (as a mater of fact you will statisticly lose a missle launcher before the serge, baring unsavable wounds which will obviously go on the serge)

 

Sorry, I should have made it clear that for arguments sake the squad had suffered a single unsaveable wound.

I have to agree that I can't think of any real circumstance (especially with 4 missiles) where you would remove any model other than the serg.

ID

[Sparhawk]

Actually, If an enemy MC/IC was in a position that could cause significant harm to you, and was severely weakened due to prior combat (e.g. One wound remaining/Retinue destroyed.) and the most convenient way of ridding yourself of a nuisance was by Las-cannon you would certainly desire a higher ballistics skill, no?

No, you would desire an extra shot. Two dice have a higher chance of rolling at least one 4+ than one dice has rolling a 5+

 

That was the point I was trying to get at in my previous post that there is a common misconception that the 1 point increase in BS is better than an extra shot when it can be proven to be mathematically inferior as per my first post.

[Mysticaria]

Actually, If an enemy MC/IC was in a position that could cause significant harm to you, and was severely weakened due to prior combat (e.g. One wound remaining/Retinue destroyed.) and the most convenient way of ridding yourself of a nuisance was by Las-cannon you would certainly desire a higher ballistics skill, no?

No, you would desire an extra shot. Two dice have a higher chance of rolling at least one 4+ than one dice has rolling a 5+

 

That was the point I was trying to get at in my previous post that there is a common misconception that the 1 point increase in BS is better than an extra shot when it can be proven to be mathematically inferior as per my first post.

Right. But if the weapons were different and you wanted one of them to be higher BS this might be more valuable to you then having an extra shot with the second weapon. Maybe against Necron Monoliths or something? Although I'm still thinking I would go with a dead sergeant, I just think it would be a closer decision than if it was all missiles.

 

-Myst

[Sparhawk]

Like I said, there are many considerations but the OPs question had to do with a 7 man squad with 4 ML so in that situation I would lose the sarge.

[Xeonic]

If the sarge had a fist, I'd consider it. Most of the time my devestator sarge is just that bolter marine with the red helmet and fancy backpack though. I have one model with a power weapon that has once in the past subbed for a dev sarge(that one time I didn't need it either), but...

 

You take devestators for weight of heavy weapons fire, why would you ever want to remove the heavy weapons first? Even with no other considerations it's kinda silly. Signum is a nice bonus, but it's hardly essential.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

why would you ever want to remove the heavy weapons first? Signum is a nice bonus, but it's hardly essential.

+1

[pattison]

Remove the sarge.

He is unlikely to have a PF in a dev squad.

 

'Most of the time my devestator sarge is just that bolter marine with the red helmet and fancy backpack though.'

-seconded

[Koremu]

I reserve the right, should I be your opponent, to mock you mercilessly should you fail the subsequent break test by a point.

[Giga]

Always remove the serge before removing heavy weapons.

 

Without those heavy weapons, the dev squad is useless, anyway. The serge's BS5 is just a bonus, not something to be relied on.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I reserve the right, should I be your opponent, to mock you mercilessly should you fail the subsequent break test by a point.

Combat Tactics.

[Koremu]

I reserve the right, should I be your opponent, to mock you mercilessly should you fail the subsequent break test by a point.

Combat Tactics.

You've still had to retreat, which means you've probably lost your advantageous firing position for at least 1 turn.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I reserve the right, should I be your opponent, to mock you mercilessly should you fail the subsequent break test by a point.

Combat Tactics.

You've still had to retreat, which means you've probably lost your advantageous firing position for at least 1 turn.

Also means whatevers chasing them is dead

[Koremu]

I reserve the right, should I be your opponent, to mock you mercilessly should you fail the subsequent break test by a point.

Combat Tactics.

You've still had to retreat, which means you've probably lost your advantageous firing position for at least 1 turn.

Also means whatevers chasing them is dead

With Devastators, you're more likely broken because of enemy fire than enemy CC. Against a dedicated CC unit the Devs are probably either dead or remain CC locked anyway.