A theory about the missing two legions

[Spaced Hulk]

Just reading A Thousand Sons when one particular passage sparked a few ideas. Towards the end of the book, Ahriman is talking to the Remembrancer Lemuel about the early days of the legion, and how the Thousand Sons were nearly destroyed by the genetic instability caused by their powers. He comments: "There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history".

 

Lemual replies: "That's the thing about history..it has a habit of remembering the things you'd like to forget. No one can erase that much, there will always be some record."

 

To which Ahriman replies: "Don't be so sure...the Emperors wrath is a terrible thing."

 

Now, in the black library video trailer for 'A Thousand Sons' and 'Prospero Burns', Dan Abnett basically states that the Space Wolves were deliberately created to be such a brutal, relentless force for one specific reason: to take down another Space Marine Legion. In effect, they're the Emperor's enforcers, his hidden gambit in case any Legion should threaten his authority.

 

So, my idea about the two missing Legions is this: what if Prospero is not the first time that the Space Wolves are unleashed upon another Legion? What if Horus/Lorgar are not the first primarchs to rebel against the Emperor? Perhaps the two missing Legions somehow invoked the Emperor's wrath, were destroyed by the Wolves and then all records of them destroyed.

 

Anyway, that's my theory, and sorry if this has already been discussed. Really looking forward to Prospero Burns now! ;)

[ORDO MICKUS]

If you recall from one of the earlier HH novels (False Gods or perhaps the next one) the Space wolves were only sent to bring Magnus back to terra to account for his actions . Obviously they were ready for a fight but it was that spicy little message sent by Horus to his brother as he was on route to Prospero that really fired up the Russman . Having seen the book promo you are talking about I think what the guys meant was that the Wolves would be idealy suited to the task of taking down another legion as opposed being 'purpose built' for the task .

 

As for your theory I reckon its entirely possible and who better for the task than the Space Wolves .

[shatter]

Frisby Legion and Legion of the Stick were both so heavily chewed and slobbered on, He swept them under the rug and spent so long pacing back and forth pondering how to train them properly, they got ingrained in the warp.

I suggested a rolled up newspaper, but He thought it would give them a distorted view of the press.

[Kodanshi]

Just reading A Thousand Sons when one particular passage sparked a few ideas. Towards the end of the book, Ahriman is talking to the Remembrancer Lemuel about the early days of the legion, and how the Thousand Sons were nearly destroyed by the genetic instability caused by their powers. He comments: "There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history".

 

Lemual replies: "That's the thing about history..it has a habit of remembering the things you'd like to forget. No one can erase that much, there will always be some record."

 

To which Ahriman replies: "Don't be so sure...the Emperors wrath is a terrible thing."

 

What’s even MORE interesting to me is a section that appears on the very next page. Magnus claims to know everything (hubris to the max!), which makes Mortarion giggle and say: “I knew a being like you once before… so sure in his powers, so convinced of his superiority that he could not see his doom until it was upon him. Like you, he wielded dark powers. Our father made him pay with his life for such evil. Have a care you do not suffer the same fate.”

 

Perhaps the ‘being’ he mentions doesn’t refer to a xenos or human, but instead one of the ‘lost’ Primarchs?

[Serraphim]

What’s even MORE interesting to me is a section that appears on the very next page. Magnus claims to know everything (hubris to the max!), which makes Mortarion giggle and say: “I knew a being like you once before… so sure in his powers, so convinced of his superiority that he could not see his doom until it was upon him. Like you, he wielded dark powers. Our father made him pay with his life for such evil. Have a care you do not suffer the same fate.”

 

Perhaps the ‘being’ he mentions doesn’t refer to a xenos or human, but instead one of the ‘lost’ Primarchs?

 

I believe that Mortarion is referring to his adoptive Father on Barbarus

[Kodanshi]

I believe that Mortarion is referring to his adoptive Father on Barbarus

 

Ah, yes, that would make much more sense. Bugger.

[Pdogg117]

I have a hard time believing that the space wolves would have been purpose-built to take down other legions; when the emperor was performing his experiments and creating the legions, I doubt very much he even so much as doubted that they would obey him, or that the dark powers would have such pull over some of them. Another thing to note is the admittance by GW that the fluff has been written so as to encourage modelers and gamers to feel free to develop their own legions- with 20 original legions, exactly half of them went over to chaos, and exactly half of them stayed loyal to the emperor...and if we count them all, we have 9 chaos legions and 9 loyal legions, leaving one each of the two expunged legions for either "team". That being said, even if the space wolves or some other legion destroyed the chaos renegade legion that is no expunged from the records, how do we explain the loss of any record of that 10th and final loyal legion?

[Monstra Sumus]

As for your theory I reckon its entirely possible and who better for the task than the Space Wolves .

 

 

World Eaters.

[Spacefrisian]

Next to that the Spacewolves werent alone. They had the aid of the Sisters of Silence (for obvious reasons) and the Legio Custodes.

[Walter Payton]

Next to that the Spacewolves werent alone. They had the aid of the Sisters of Silence (for obvious reasons) and the Legio Custodes.

 

You said it yourself-the Sisters were there to contain the Sons' psychic might. If the Wolves had been taking down, say, the Salamanders, would the Sisters have been there? The Legio Custodes were the Emperor's bodyguard, in fact, they were the living representations of his Imperial authority and the Pax Imperium-they won't say anything, and the Wolves have (if this theory is to be believed) done this before. Think about it, if Conatantin MacValdor tells a Sister "you saw nothing, you heard nothing", I imagine she would say "heard what, sir?"

[AGPO]

Another thing to note is the admittance by GW that the fluff has been written so as to encourage modelers and gamers to feel free to develop their own legions- with 20 original legions, exactly half of them went over to chaos, and exactly half of them stayed loyal to the emperor...and if we count them all, we have 9 chaos legions and 9 loyal legions, leaving one each of the two expunged legions for either "team". That being said, even if the space wolves or some other legion destroyed the chaos renegade legion that is no expunged from the records, how do we explain the loss of any record of that 10th and final loyal legion?

 

This was probably the intention originally, but if we consider the Horus Heresy books to be cannon then this has since changed. The missing Primarchs are refered to by Dorn whilst looking at the statues of his borthers. The nine traitors' statues have been covered, whilst the 'missing two' primarchs' statues have been removed. Dorn remarks mentally that their fates could have been a 'prior warning' of things to come. This to me more or less confirms that whatever happened to these legions happened before the heresy, and that "fully half" refers now to half the remaining legions.

[greatcrusade08]

"fully half" refers now to half the remaining legions.

 

Ive always agreed with this assertion myself. It makes more sense to think of it this way.

 

My own personal thoughts are that a legion was lost in the webway (along with its primarch) whilst the 20th primarch was sent back in time through the warp aided by great 'shamans' of earth to arrive in ancient turkey 4000 bc (IIRC).

The 20th primarch is the emperor himself :wacko:

His 'legion' could then have possibly been used to found the custodes or grey knights. (since they would have used the emperors genes)

[OXIDE]

Im positave it says in the codex ultramarines second ed,both likely sided with horus during the heresy.

[ProtoClone]

Im positave it says in the codex ultramarines second ed,both likely sided with horus during the heresy.

 

Well since then I think they have just summed it up to all records of their existence having been wiped from record.

 

It is possible they had suffered from similar effects as the 1k Sons were going through before they found Magnus. But because Magnus was found the 1k Sons were "saved" from the fate of the other two legions.

 

The SW are the legion you send when you want something done, plain and simple. You want this galaxy sacked with no mercy, send SW. You need someone of great power pacified and brought in...Send SW.

 

Plus, Russ had been itching *snicker* for a chance to put Magnus in his place and there was no better choice.

 

IMHO, from some of the other books I have read in this series the Emp had this all planned. From the beginning he had set things in motion to have the Heresy happen and himself be a martyr. He knew Magnus would never listen and had used the two missing primarchs as an example to the other primarchs of what he, the Emp, could do.

[ORDO MICKUS]

Aye World Eaters , good point .

Well said that man .

[khairney]

I have a hard time believing that the space wolves would have been purpose-built to take down other legions; when the emperor was performing his experiments and creating the legions, I doubt very much he even so much as doubted that they would obey him, or that the dark powers would have such pull over some of them. Another thing to note is the admittance by GW that the fluff has been written so as to encourage modelers and gamers to feel free to develop their own legions- with 20 original legions, exactly half of them went over to chaos, and exactly half of them stayed loyal to the emperor...and if we count them all, we have 9 chaos legions and 9 loyal legions, leaving one each of the two expunged legions for either "team". That being said, even if the space wolves or some other legion destroyed the chaos renegade legion that is no expunged from the records, how do we explain the loss of any record of that 10th and final loyal legion?

 

there is seldom wars between two identicaly sized forces. and the two missing legions, were created and destroyed long before the horus heresy, leaving your two equal forces theory be.

severely doubt it myself.

 

im personally not sure that the space wolves would have been created for the destruction of other legions, but the chances are that it was in mind when their genetics were being designed. doubt the emperor would have been short sighted enough to think that every legion would work exactly has he planned.

[Pariah Mk.231]

"fully half" refers now to half the remaining legions.

 

Ive always agreed with this assertion myself. It makes more sense to think of it this way.

 

My own personal thoughts are that a legion was lost in the webway (along with its primarch) whilst the 20th primarch was sent back in time through the warp aided by great 'shamans' of earth to arrive in ancient turkey 4000 bc (IIRC).

The 20th primarch is the emperor himself :)

His 'legion' could then have possibly been used to found the custodes or grey knights. (since they would have used the emperors genes)

 

LOL, I like that.

Or maybe the Primarchs were so screwed up when they were found, and their legions were destroyed during creation that the Emperor decided it was too embarrassing to let the truth get out.

Or maybe they were so important that the "Boss" stashed them somewhere, to use them for a very special purpose, so removed all records of them so nobody would figure it out. But Horus messed him up good and he didn't tell anyone else what the deal with the other 2 legions were, so they're still sitting there twiddling their thumbs and waiting.

 

Nah.

 

The final Primarchs and their legions were left blank intentionally to allow people to fit their own stories in if they so choose. Basically, so we can speculate about it with all these wild theories OR so you can make your own legion, with comprehensive history, saying they're one of the original legions. It wouldn't effect the overall fluff, but would let people feel like they could really immerse themselves in the 40K universe.

[Brother Boby]

IMHO one of the lost Primach had the purpose to remain on earth to manage the Astronomican while the Emp was wagering war in the stars.

Just like Magnus purpose was to sit on the golden throne to defend the golden palace entry to the webway from demons of the Immaterium.

 

i know it sounds heretical but i can't work out a satisfactory explanation for how the Astronomican was able to guide navigators as the Emp was leading the Great Crusade far away from earth.

(As i recall it is stated that the Astronomican is a signal sent by the Big E through the devices under the Himalayas or something like that...:s)

 

i have no clue about the second lost Primarch but i can imagine that the perspective of spending your whole life on techno warp machinery could draw you towards the Dark Gods...

[mob16151]

I have a couple of different theories about the missing primarchs, and legions.

 

1. They were both sent beyond the light of the Astonomicon, searching for lost extra galactic human worlds.

 

2. One of the legions F'ed up fled into the warp, and the other legion was tasked with destroying them.

 

3. The legions are in stasis waiting for the Emp to call them forth. Kind of a handy dandy reserve force. Why he didn't call them forth during the heresy I don't know, unless there in a time locked stasis vault.

[Ju'kosian]

[

What’s even MORE interesting to me is a section that appears on the very next page. Magnus claims to know everything (hubris to the max!), which makes Mortarion giggle and say: “I knew a being like you once before… so sure in his powers, so convinced of his superiority that he could not see his doom until it was upon him. Like you, he wielded dark powers. Our father made him pay with his life for such evil. Have a care you do not suffer the same fate.”

 

Perhaps the ‘being’ he mentions doesn’t refer to a xenos or human, but instead one of the ‘lost’ Primarchs?

 

No, I believe Mortarion refers to that last warlord on Barbarus he could not reach..He/it was sure of his rule and his powers because Mortarion and his warband could not reach him, because they could not get past those poison fogs (or something similair) - note that could have been nurgle sorcery or so - But The Emperor killed him without any problem..

 

I liked this reference in the novel though, so maybe the Emperor discovered his legion/primarch to find them fully corrupted by chaos or so.. (Think of the current chaos primarchs), the Emperor would have been quite mad to find his lost son elevated to a Daemon prince or so..

 

On the Wolves VS thousand sons.. It seems the wolves outnumbered the Sons anyway.. they also had custodes and Sisters with them, and probably not a few either, just a sign of the Emperor's wrath they would have been deployed in numbers..

I think any legion could take out another legion with these allies.. They had the means to nullify the strongest powers of the sons..

I personally don't see the Sons fare any better, had the Worldeaters, deathguard, lunawolves, imperial fists, white scars etc .. been sent instead of the spacewolves..

or other loyal legions (the ultramarines would have just overrun them probably )

[calgar101]

Maybe the Primarchs turned against the Emperor on their own backs. That would be worse than being tricked by chaos.

 

Emperor: Hello, you're my son, join me and my crusade to unify humanity....

 

Primarch 2&11: Up yours *punch*

 

Yea something along those lines..

[Midwest]

What if the Grey Knights are one of the founding legions, but were expunged in order to facilitate their ability to work in the shadows, as it were? I believe the current background hints that they're a 2nd Founding chapter that may actually predate the 2nd.

 

As for the second...what if the T-Sons weren't the first/only legion to have tremendous psychic capabilities? What if another legion developed uncontrollable (or corruptible) powers that eventually led to its destruction, either self-destruction or by order of the Emperor? Could the Emperor have issued his strict edicts against sorcery and have been "overreacting" to similar-appearing tendencies in the 1k Sons out of fear that a similar scenario was being played out?

[OXIDE]

Grey knights are the 1st chapter created from the 2nd founding if iI rember correctly.Also just had a read of the second ed codex UM and I was close but not totaly correct.It say's of leigons 2 & 11 nothing is recorded but it's likly they fought for horus AT LEAST DURING THE BEGINNING OF THE HERESY.I know this is old stuff but it does give a small hint that they may have sided with the EMP in the end.

[Raven Angel]

Grey knights are the 1st chapter created from the 2nd founding if iI rember correctly.Also just had a read of the second ed codex UM and I was close but not totaly correct.It say's of leigons 2 & 11 nothing is recorded but it's likly they fought for horus AT LEAST DURING THE BEGINNING OF THE HERESY.I know this is old stuff but it does give a small hint that they may have sided with the EMP in the end.

 

In light of more recent material legions 2 & 11 are no longer considered to have been treasoniss. Both now appear to have been lost very early in the Crusade. As for the Gray Knights I'm leaning in the direction of them being founded by surviving Loyalsit psykers. I don't think that they are the Esenstine Survivors though. I belive that group of Astartes has yet to be introduced in the HH books.

[dracpanzer]

If you look, in False Gods while Horus is in the chamber with the nascent Primarchs. He recognizes ones that failed to become living breathing Primarch Brothers. Although I'd certainly think that GW left them open originally for DIY minded players, the book seems to point to Primarch Recipe's that just didn't turn out.