Long Ranged Dakka

[Archnomad]

So, i've been trying all night to make a long ranged space marine army. Now, excluding anti AV14 (which only tau can reliably do at range these days), can we fight the good fight, from >24" away? Tactical squads are obviously necessary, they make a good counterpunch unit. Dreads seem to be the elites to do this with (either 2x TL ACs or maybe ML/LC), Typhoons work as fast attack, heavy support I guess preds. But some ordnance wouldn't hurt.

 

Anyone got any ideas on making a long ranged marine army? I've got plenty of lists that're brutal within 24", but we don't seem to be able to do much outside that comfort zone.

 

~{Archy}~

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Do I hear someone asking for a Gunline army?

 

I love gunline armies, plus I have my own theories too!

[Archnomad]

Yes you do :D

 

Is that a new Avatar? I'm sure you used to be blue O.o

 

 

However, i'm not naive enough to ask for pure shooty, all good gunlines need some ability to counter close combat, as no matter how shooty you are, the enemy will get there.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

First off, and excuse me if you know all of the follow but it never hurts to be safe, but: Gunline Theory may provve useful - its a post in an army list thread, but 'tis about gunlines.

 

Have a read/ignore if you know it already and then we can get down to business!

 

RE: Blue.. Aye, i was but I found a banner for the Chapter from which my IA: The Iron Angels was founded! :D

[Archnomad]

Well if we're to forge a gunline army, I think the first thing that should go in will be some mobility denial. As marines we have a few of these. The rifleman dread (popping transports) a *gasp* thunderfire cannon, drop podding units, and potentially a LSStorm. The latter two because they tie up a portion of the opponent while they have to turn and deal with them. But I think the most in theme is the Rifleman, and the Thunderfire.

 

A librarian with Null Zone is probably another good addition.

 

Any thoughts on troops?

 

 

Edit; I'd like to stay with vanilla marines, so avoiding Kantor/Vulkan/Shrike and such for now. Especially Vulkan.

 

Combat tactics also seems best for a shooty list.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The first and formost problem is to deal with you HQ, as always, as you need to consider - in my mind you really don't, but some people won't be told :D - their role.

 

My preferred option is as a CC force, tied in with a Command Squad or Assault Squad as part on the Balance.

 

If you want to go heavy on Troops, Scouts w/ Bolters are a cheap option, if not then it's 2-4 Tac Squads depending on your points limit.

 

EDIT: My lists never feature SCs.. UNLESS the army is to be of that Chapter.

[Archnomad]

Well to me, the Librarian is the obvious choice. The MotF and Captain/Chapter Master (I prefer the captain) both see an equal use. The MotF is not bad on a bike, with a beamer, and the defenses are nice for your troops etc. However, the beamer does suffer more (oddly) in a purely shooty army, as your enemy will be enticed to come to you. The captain with relic blade + stormshield/combi weapon provides a solid counter attack. The libby can provide Null Zone, and another utility power. I could see a great unexpected capture of an objective by deep striking a combat squad with a libby on to it in the last turn. That kind of unforseen mobility in this kind of list.

 

What're your thoughts on HQ?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I generally prefer the choice of a Captain with a Command Sqaud and Razorback - for added firepower.

 

Say a 2 to 2.5k list, the basics would be:

 

1 Captain, Command Squad and Razor.

 

3 Tact Squads.

 

2 x Assault Squads.

 

2 Scout Squads - One with Snipers and the other either BP/CCW or Shotties.

 

2 x Preds - Need to pick out their loadout, generally based on what you can be expected to face.

 

Also, conisder Sternguard - in small 5 man Squads - as a Cheap way to get heavy weapons rather than Devs.

 

Thats what I'd consider a very basic core, that can be altered or upgraded as circumstances dictate.

[Archnomad]

Ah I typically play at 1.5k. To me, a basic core would be much smaller, and more like so;

 

Librarian

Rifleman Dready

2x10 Tacs in rhinos (i like the versatility of being able to have 10 in a rhino)

 

I generally don't like assault squads, or scouts (gimme power armour please :D). Not to say I don't see the merits of the units, I just don't like them. See I'm quite a big fan of 5 Sternguard in a rhino with 2 meltas, but 5 sternguard in a rhino with 2 lascannons might be. Well, thinking about it, it's actually very expensive for what you get. Compared to a pred with Autocannon + 2 Lascannons.

 

I really think dreads + anti infantry sternguard are the way to go with elites. That or maybe tac terminators? I'm not sold on assault terminators, as they can't contribute till the enemy gets there.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The smaller you get with a gunline the harder it becomes.

 

If you're adding Rhinos to a Gunline force, then you're missing the point; if you must pick a transport then pick a Razor that will add some firepower!

 

Assault Squads are there for the counter-assault element - sometimes, to quote myself, its not important what is getting into combat, just that something is.

 

Scouts are good for what they cost, especially with Snipers as a harssing/distraction force.

 

on that note, as I'm at work i need to sign off but I shall continue this roughly around 9am tomorrow when i get home - hopefully you get some more help whilst i'm gone but if not come up with a sample list for me to take a look at tomorrow.

 

:D

[Commander Sasha]

I'd go 5man Sternguard in cover with a good view, 2 las or missiles.

[waaanial00]

Hi there,

 

Whilst its not a gunline army per se I have been enjoying quite a bit of luck with the army as defined in this battle report. It has, what I believe to be, a great mix of long and medium range weapons.

 

What it doesnt really do well with is fighting the enemy in CC, if they are smart and kill my Sternguard then nothing in my army has much of a chance in CC. However with so many guns I havent found a list which has been able to put enough CC units into me without suffering a massive amount of casualties.

 

Still on a general note you are missing the Typhoon Speeder in the list of anti vehicle long ranged weapons. With 2 of these you will be able to challenge most transport vehicles. I have run 2 of these beauties for about 6 games and they have never let me down. They are superb and those who suggest that they are too fragile need to try them out because despite being AV10 I have not had a game where they both completely died before doing anything useful. Generally they carry a very important part of the game.

 

Wan

[Archnomad]

Agreed, I run 3 in my space wolves army. However, they don't fit my fluff and aren't very "gunliney". However, others will probably be ok with using them, so it's a notable mention I guess!

 

:D Thanks for the input :P

 

How is the dread with TLLC and ML working out for you? I still haven't had the stones to try it. ;]

 

Archy

[Archnomad]

Felt this was a worthy use of a double post.

 

List of things that we should look at as "shooty" units.

 

HQ

Captain in a counterassault role

 

Chaplain in a counterassault role

 

MotF on a bike with a conversion Beamer can work, otherwise...

 

MotF in a counterassault role

 

Librarian, in any role. They rock, seriously.

 

Elites

"Big" sternguard units to basically be uber tactical squads.

 

Small sternguard units with 2x heavy weapons, however, I don't advise these unless you're really out of slots and don't like dreads. They're not hard to kill, and aren't that efficient compared to preds.

 

Dreads with 2x Shooty weapons. Best combos being; Twin Linked Autocannonx2, Twin Linked Autocannon + Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher and Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher and Twin Linked Lascannon.

 

Dreads with one shooty arm and a combat arm can provide shootyness and backup punch when the enemy gets there.

 

Tactical Terminators, basically an uber tactical squad, that works in combat.

 

Troops

Tacticals in any shape and size as long as you bring a heavy weapon somewhere, whether it's through a razorback or your 10 man squad upgrade, or both.

 

Sniper Scouts, for obvious reasons.

 

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Typhoons, as above.

 

Some Tornado builds, assault cannon and heavy bolter potentially, but it's getting a fragile unit a bit too close in my opinion.

 

Heavy Support

Everything except land raiders.

 

I don't think Land Raiders work because they pay a lot of points for being an AV14 assault transport. This is bad for you because if you put a good assault unit in here it detracts from your gunline (at least at 1500, the points level I play at). And it detracts a LOT. However it does mean you will have a solid counterattack waiting.

 

 

Thoughts?

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

I can personally testify to the effect of Typhoons and Riflenaughts (But that reaction is common around here)

 

My gunline for 2000

 

HQ:

Pedro-175

MotF-100

 

 

Troops:

Tactical 1: 10 men, TLHB Razor, PF, LC, Flamer-245

Tactical 2: 10 men, TLLC Razor, PF, ML, PG-245

 

Elites:

6xSternguard-2xPC, 2xCombi plas, Rhino-195

6xSternguard-2xPC, 2xCombi plas-, Rhino195

Riflenaught-125

 

Fast:

2xTyphoons-180

2xTyphoons-180

 

 

Heavy:

2xTFC-200

Combi-pred+HK-130

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Space Wolves make the best Gunline army, as a side note.

 

I wouldn't agree with any bikers, unless a small squad geared for counter-assault or area denial.

 

In my opinion, your base or core units should be drawn from Tactical, Scout and Assault Squads. This gives you a core of gunline, gunline/harrasment and counter-attack squads.

[Archnomad]

OH, one more thing that I forgot to mention. It has to be a mech gunline army (for me, anyway). I love tanks ^.^

[DevianID]

I have played a few competitive marine gunlines with success. Here are some things I have found effective.

 

First, Combipreds! 2 las, 2 autocannon shots, and a low price. With a front of 13 they can stare across the table and be almost immue to counter shots.

 

Second, Attack Bikes! Cheap mobile multimeltas, and perhaps more importantly the multimelta bikes have the additional ability to assault shooty stuff and tie it up. Example: 6 long fangs with 5 missiles, or 15 ork lootas, if you charge them, will deal ~1 wound to your attack bike. Thus, 1 attack bike can prevent 5 missile shots/30 autocannon shots from hurting you in their shooting phase. GREATLY outweighs what more expensive speeders bring to the table.

 

Third, Cyclone terminators! 10 Terminators with 2 cyclones give you all kinds of options. First, 10 termies are a rock to throw at the enemy in an otherwise gunline list--even if the enemy can outshoot your gunline, they rarely can outshoot your gunline and out fight 10 termies. Second, with 9 pfists the termies are great in a lot of metagame situations--instant death to ork nobs, many ICs, and wounds any MC on a 2+ other than Ctan/Wraithlords. Termies are also a style thing... while not as efficient in shooting as many other options, I just love termies!

 

As for HQ, the null zone libby is an autoinclude in any serious competitive marine list, Dakka based or not. In my last GT, the null zone libby was winning games for me every time I used him. I used null zone to kill a total of 3 daemon princes, the deciever, a nurgle biker lord, and 29 1ksons in 3 total games.

 

Other useful bits are to only bring 2 10 man tac squads, never any more. Tac shooting is good for a troop, but bad for any other FOC choice. With the ability to combat squad, and with scouts being so good, 2 tacs with fists in transports (rhinos and upgraded razors both work just depends on your playstyle) are all you ever need.

 

Scouts with fists in MM LS storms can be devestating turn 1 threats for a gunline marine army, as if you charge 5-10 scouts into your enemies biggest threat to your gunline, you will often kill it or slow it long enough for your gunline to sweep the rest of the enemies forces. If your not using cc scouts with storms, then I like 5 sniper scouts with a missile launcher as your 3 troop FOC and 5th scoring unit after combat squading the tacs.

 

As an aside, while you mentioned that you wanted to stay away from named characters, if you are running 10 cyclone termies I strongly recommend adding Pedro. Pedro's orbital blast is a great addition to a gunline, and his +1 attack bubble makes the termies and pfist tac squads much nastier. I would never run a vanilla captain or master in a gunline.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

OH, one more thing that I forgot to mention. It has to be a mech gunline army (for me, anyway). I love tanks ^.^

 

 

You can't have Mechanized and Gunline... It won't work because you can't focus on the aspects that make them successful; so really what you want is a Mech list y the sound of it.

[Koremu]

Edit; I'd like to stay with vanilla marines, so avoiding Kantor/Vulkan/Shrike and such for now. Especially Vulkan.

 

Combat tactics also seems best for a shooty list.

If you are gunlining you'll frequently not have room to use Combat Tactics effectively. Stubborn (Kantor/Lysander) is your best bet, and the two of them come with a number of useful gunline additional rules - Bolster Defences, Bolter Drill, and Scoring Sternguard especially.

[glsn]

For gun line, at your points level, an adaptation to a list I used to use might be useful.

 

The core list was:

 

Librarian; Gate + Vortex, TDA and Storm Shield

2x 5x Scouts; Combi-Melta and Power Fist

5x TH SS Terminators

2x LSS; Heavy Flamer

2x Typhoons

 

Total - 860

 

You have two very mobile scoring units, your counter unit can teleport 24" a turn, and typhoons are always awesome. This is very useful for denied flank, which will give your other stuff more time to shoot the enemy. Hope this helps.

 

P.S. for other HQs, think about Chapter Masters instead of Captains. Orbital Bombardment doesn't always work, but when it does it can be awesome, and the after that he can be used as counter assault. Orbital Assault is very gunline.

[chapter master 454]

You want ranged firepower, well us marines pack it quite well. While we do not have claim to kick everyones rear at it, I can say that we can certainly out-do alot of others. Check out my article on earth warrior lists in my sig, should have plenty of info there for you (shameless self plug I know).

 

As for general range, marines at range combat fire from roughly on average 12"-36", I say 12" because often the bolter barrage often finishs off what made it through. However we do have some stupidly long range weapons like the conversion beamer and TFC. We also pack of serious hellstorm pain because of our BS4, we be fewer but we hit with what we fire.

 

However I do warn you now: 5th edition HATES earth style. Tyranids will without question hammer you (they will hit your lines without question turn 2 unless you have done some seriously lucky or good damage to the nids advance). If you do gunline though, pack at least one MotF with 5 servitors and one techmarine with full harness and 5 servitors. People will hate the fact that no matter how many times they nail your tanks, the weapon just keeps coming back or drive returns. Nothing more fun that tying up 10 honourguard with relic blades for an entire game because the ven dread kept getting it's arm put back on whenever it came off! (I had knocked down enough honour guard to allow my MotF a gap to reach the dread and repair it in combat. I think the MotF got a little bit ticked off!)

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

It is possible to make a mechanized gunline heres an example:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=193046

 

the tacs HWs can be swapped to deal with varying opponents and so can the LR. or feel free to swap pred(s) for vindis

 

I also have a 1000 pt mech gunline but never did one for 1500, but its all the same

[Calgar 2.0]

Conversion Beamers!

[Giga]

Here's spartan249's sample gunline army list for vanilla. TBH, if I was going to run a gunline army, I sure as hell would subscribe to his philosophy.

 

2000 pts "Sample Tourney List"

HQ

Master of the Forge: Conversion Beamer, Bike - 155 pts

Troops

Tactical Squad: 10 Marines, Lascannon, Flamer, Power fist, Razorback - 245 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 Marines, Lascannon, Flamer, Power fist, Razorback - 245 pts

Tactical Squad: 10 Marines, Lascannon, Flamer, Power fist, Razorback - 245 pts

Heavy Support

Predator: Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 85 pts

Predator: Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 85 pts

Predator: Heavy Bolter Sponsons - 85 pts

Elites

Dreadnought: TL lascannon, Heavy Flamer - 145 pts

Dreadnought: TL lascannon, Heavy Flamer - 145 pts

Dreadnought: TL lascannon, Heavy Flamer - 145 pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders, Multi-melta & Heavy Bolter - 140 pts

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders, Multi-melta & Heavy Bolter - 140 pts

Land Speeder Squadron: 2 Land Speeders, Multi-melta & Heavy Bolter - 140 pts

 

(we discuss his gunline armies (among a bunch of other things) in the following thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...85994&st=50 )

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, if you want a more standardized list and not a 100% gunline army, here are the truly viable long-range units available to the vanilla dex;

 

- dakkapredators

- combipredators

- rifleman dreads

- typhoon/HB speeders

- 5 men sternguard units with 2 heavies

- bike MotF with conversion beamer