Lord Tharand Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 I was at my local GW yesterday checking out the new Blood Angels Codex when I got to thinking about Sanguinius's last moments and why the BA suffer from the black rage. I have a theory that the BA aren't seeing the death of their winged primarch but infact seeing him turn to chaos and joining Horus. As evidence I present the two page illustration within "Horus Heresy Collected Visions" on page 362-363. The illustration shows a dead Sanguinius at the feet of Horus and at first glance it's easy to miss the evidence in the picture. But if you look at the picture the armor of Sanguinius is blasted outward from his stomach wound as if the the attack had come from behind. And in the right of the picture, behind Sanguinius, stands the Emperor with his flaming sword. So, maybe the black rage is merely the realization that Sanguinius joined Horus and was killed at the hands of the Emperor. This is what drives the Blood Angels insane and this is the terrible secret that is slowly killing the chapter! What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD ANGELS... I MEAN BLOOD GOD! I really like that idea... but I bet it would upset some BA players... but I love my twists and I can easily see this causing rage in the Blood Angels just as easily as Horus murdering him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Highly insubstantial. The art "evidence" is merely artistic rendering...after all, a lightning claw punching in will likely also rip out as it twists around and out through different parts of the armor than it went in. Neat theory though :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidren2401 Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 Awesome theory, I like it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted March 13, 2010 Author Share Posted March 13, 2010 Highly insubstantial. The art "evidence" is merely artistic rendering...after all, a lightning claw punching in will likely also rip out as it twists around and out through different parts of the armor than it went in. Neat theory though :P I agree the evidence is a little light but clearly Sanguinius wouldn't have had his back to Horus during the fight. Also, in the BA codex there was a passage I was reading the talked about what the Imperials in the know think about the rage and whether it shows that the Blood Angels are having a slow decline into chaos or not. And the argument against that by was, "Sanguinius was trusted completely by the Emperor" and the return response was, "So was Horus". Clearly, theres enough room for a little doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Tsk, tsk, again GW has been telling only lies in a Codex. Making us believe that Sanguinius had been killed by Horus, even though that is totally not true. Just like how the Codices said that Luthor was the traitor, and not Jonson, as was actually the case. And they even wanted to make us believe that Guilliman was competent, and that the Emperor was a great guy. No, wait, since the Emperor was actually the bad one, that would mean that Sanguinius, even though he sided with Horus, is a good guy after all. Now I am confused. It would be sooo much simpler if an army's Codex would tell us the actual background, instead of just propaganda and lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpse. Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 The human species is made to be resistant to the warp until ready. Mutation and meddling with the genes/body (like making space marines) unbalances the equalibrium of what is a human. Ever note a balanced human being going chaotic? That means no psychic powers, no secure link to the warp, etc... Everything that is not in that balance has a tendency of being spoken to by chaos. Why? Just because it's no longer a human being. All Space Marines included. Space marines already embrace chaos in every way. Virus Bombing.... Making things bleed... The glory and reverence of being venerated in, and after war... Planning to take the enemy out in various ways with their extended experience... Using the very warp power against the enemy... All to do what? Only to send more souls to the eye of terror... All marines joined chaos the moment they became a marine. Loyalists know that, but you need not to push their buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Interesting theory.... Musing on it some more: Sanguinus was the only Primarch apart from Magnus to openly show Warp-Touch (his wings) which were tolerated... Emperor bans Librarians... Horus, Fulgrim, Magnus, Mortarion, Angron, Alpharious, Omegon, Perturabo, Konrad and Lorgar all turn to Chaos. The final battle of the Heresy, at the Palace, Sanguinus gets seperated from the Emperor and begins battling Horus... then the Emperor shows up as the fight is nearing its end... Thing is, we know there was a fight between Sanguinus and Horus... but what transpired in it? Horus, for all his failings, was indeed correct in trying to overthrow the Emperor.... and as we all know, talking is a free action... could the Emperor have walked in a brief break in the fighting where Horus had made a point that caused Sanguinus to pause and think? Sanguinus already displaying Warp-Taint, and now pausing to contemplate the Truth... it'd be quicker to drop him then risk him turning.... A lesson from having dealt with the Thousand Sons.... The logic is there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sempronius Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 But if The Emperor found it so easy to strike down Sanguinius on suspicion of treason, why did he hesitate while fighting Horus, the leader of the Traitor Legions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I'd say it was cause the Emperor just couldn't believe Horus would betray him of all the Primarchs. Lemme think... He got warnings from: Konrad Magnus Garro and his cohort His entire palace was beseiged by Horus' amassed army And the dude didn't decide that Horus was a traitor til after Sanguinius died? Think the Emperor just fell for a very mortal mistake like the rest of the Primarchs. The love a father has for his son. Out of all his sons, all his claim of favour (Imperial Fists having Terra as their homeworld, Emperors Children getting to display the Aquila) it was Horus who was named Warmaster. It was Horus who was given equal power to the Emperor himself. And if all the Primarchs are fallible, then their father would be just so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 From White Dwarf 131, though I found it on th enet, and it did not directly take it from the WD myself: They are ambushed by scuttling skull-faced things in the armour of marines. They fight hordes of mutated beasts. One by one they die. In the end the Emperor stands alone. Then and only then is he allowed to enter the presence of Horus. The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him the tortured Earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to sieze with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred marines lie everywhere. Face glowing with internal bloodlight, Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have a seat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side." The Emperor stands transfixed, trying to force frozen words from his tongue. In the end he can only wisper; "Why?" Mad laughter rings out. "Why? You ask me why? Have all those millennia tought you nothing? Weak fool, your timidity prevented you from binding the forces of Chaos. You shied away from the ultimate power. I have bound it to my will and will lead humanity into a new age. I, Horus, Master Of Chaos." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Hrm... interesting as it may be, how old is that WD article? Cause as you and me argued back in the other thread Legatus, older editions painted a much rosier picture of the Emperor then we're getting now... Then again this Sanguinius' Loyalty thing probably wont play out in the HH series... as much of a shockin twist as it may be.... just imagine it... Flames raced across the surface of the slowly revolving planet below. Bursts of light bloomed as explosions ended the lives of so many former brothers and sisters in the blink of an eye. High above, aboard the Warmasters Flagship, two gods made flesh battled for supremacy. The brothers lashing out at each other viciously with both tongue and blade. A pause in the fighting, a word, just a single word, blessed by the Changer to carry Truth, Blessed by the Prince to carry Weight, stretching out to fill the gap between one brothers lips and the others ears. The Angels sword tip dipped, stunned by the revelation, trying to make sense of it all. The doors burst open to reveal a golden clad figure, dulled by blood and war. Seeing the Angel stunned, and the flicker of an upturned lip on the Favoured, the Golden Clad figure strode forth. Energy pulsating off a wicked golden talon as it flowed through the air, shredding the Angels innards. And for just one brief moment, the collective conciousness of a brotherhood born of the geneseed saw the truth, and those who could not stand up to it... were left shattered, screaming, vengeful remnants of their former selves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Fluff written by Bill King has no expiry date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted March 14, 2010 Author Share Posted March 14, 2010 But if The Emperor found it so easy to strike down Sanguinius on suspicion of treason, why did he hesitate while fighting Horus, the leader of the Traitor Legions? I think Draeden has it right. Horus was the only primarch that the Emperor ever truly loved and he found it impossible to believe it came to that moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I'm detecting massive quantities of wishful thinking and traces of conspiracy in this sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Perhaps it might be worth reading the best available transcript of Sanguinius' fight with Horus in Index Astartes: Blood Angels? It's taken from the Black Rage-induced flashbacks of a Chaplain Lestrallio, and whilst not complete it is the most they've ever got from one of the Black Rage afflicted Marines. The first part deals with Sanguinius' trip through the last few corridors leading to Horus, but the last part seems to deal with his death at Horus' hands: "I will find you, coward." <six seconds passes, subject's eyes open> "I name you Traitor! Face me! For the Emperor! FOR THE EMPEROR!" At this point, after a violent spasm that lasted longer than any before and nearly shook his body to pieces, Chaplain Lestrallio died of massive psychological trauma. This doesn't completely rule out the theory, but it does mean that Sanguinius turning to Chaos cannot be the cause of the Black Rage. If Sanguinius did turn to Chaos, the Black Rage would have to be transmitting deceptive images. Add in that the forces of Chaos have never tried to dissuade the Imperium from it's view on Sanguinius and you can see why it's unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zentor Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 I like this theory, Glory to Chaos! However I don't think it would very be validated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draeden Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 As I was going to bed last night, I thought maybe this entire tract was a little... iunno... direct... Why not look for something more subtle? Going wiht well established story of it being Horus who killed Sanguinius... what if in his dieing moments he saw the Emperor enter the room. All the warp energy flying about and Sanguinius thinks, hopes that the Emperor can defeat Horus. Tzeentch, being contradictory as ever, answers this. Taking Sanguinius' wish and in effect subtly reducing the amount of power he was granting Horus. And the price for the exchange? Converting an entire legion of previously rather well behaved warriors into crazed bloody warriors ala Khorne Bezerkers (loyalist style) as part of one of Tzeentch's far reaching plots.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Hrm... interesting as it may be, how old is that WD article? Cause as you and me argued back in the other thread Legatus, older editions painted a much rosier picture of the Emperor then we're getting now... Then again this Sanguinius' Loyalty thing probably wont play out in the HH series... as much of a shockin twist as it may be.... just imagine it... Read the collected visions book, it has rehashed that passage, and the CV book only came out a couple of years ago, so I think that this pirec of fluff still stands, also considering that the CV book is also technically part of the HH series, it can be considered to be canon. I like the theory, but GW already has their 'possible goodies/baddies' primarchs with Alpharius/Omegon and Lion El'Jonson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justicar Valius Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 The fact the wound is from the back is most likely symbolism to show that he was betrayed (symbolism is often used rather than what actually happened), nice theory though ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkapostle222 Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 From White Dwarf 131, though I found it on th enet, and it did not directly take it from the WD myself: They are ambushed by scuttling skull-faced things in the armour of marines. They fight hordes of mutated beasts. One by one they die. In the end the Emperor stands alone. Then and only then is he allowed to enter the presence of Horus. The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him the tortured Earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to sieze with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred marines lie everywhere. Face glowing with internal bloodlight, Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have a seat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side." The Emperor stands transfixed, trying to force frozen words from his tongue. In the end he can only wisper; "Why?" Mad laughter rings out. "Why? You ask me why? Have all those millennia tought you nothing? Weak fool, your timidity prevented you from binding the forces of Chaos. You shied away from the ultimate power. I have bound it to my will and will lead humanity into a new age. I, Horus, Master Of Chaos." Nothing but Loyalist propaganda. They are brain-washing you brother, telling you what they want you to hear. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexter Kong Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 That explains why Mephiston has a stat line comparable to a Bloodthirster! But seriously folks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tharand Posted March 19, 2010 Author Share Posted March 19, 2010 While I realized it's far fetched it's still fun to speculate on some of the murky areas of 40k. Sanguinius is the well known good boy of the primarchs. But he was a mutant and most likely touched by the warp in some way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 Yeah...no. I mean I agree that the Lion's loyalties are suspect, but that's because there is reason to given what we know from Angels of Darkness, but this sounds like a really long reach. It's like somebody saying "Hey look at that up in the sky" and you responding "What a phonebooth shot out of a cannon?" I mean it's technically possible but it's just a bit too far fetched to make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherMoses Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 We Blood Angels have enough people butchering our fluff. First chaos kills our primarch, and now heretics slander his name. I would purge the lot of you and more! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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