First Turn Charge On A Vehicle

[ArmouredWing]

I'm with Koremu: for gaming purposes, stationary, by fluff, they'd have been gunning in to battle, so flat out.

I'm not even sure that fluff would justify it. For me the only stuff that is moving into the combat zone (otherwise known as the table) is what actually moves onto the table from reserve and that everything that is deployed is classed as being there already. If the alternative was the case then any vehicles deployed more than 6" into the deployment zone would be restricted on the weapons that they could use and any infantry would also be limited on what they could let rip with, i.e. Devs would not be able to fire heavy weapons as they would have been classed as moving and we know that this isn't the case.

[Grey Mage]

Simple question:

 

Has the vehicle moved since you put it on the table?

 

Answer: No.

 

Therefore, it cannot have been anything but stationairy due to the simple fact that it has not moved.

 

Just because it cant have moved is no excuse.

Playing Devil's advocate here (I would play it as stationary...), but that's an entirely game-POV, rather than a realism POV.

 

I would make the argument that vehicles in the first turn would be much more likely to have "previously" moved at top speed (exceptions for dug-in). This is especially true for Rhinos which have been positioned half way up the board for Dawn of War. It's not like both sides line up and wait for the whistle to blow for the start of turn 1, is it?

Well, right back at you koremu B).

 

Were playing a game, not reality. In reality theres no way to get 10 marines into that rhino, but we can in this game. I would make the argument that if were basing this off of reality we need to change far to many rules, and bring in people with far to many degrees to play this game at the current time. Perhaps we could reschedule in about 15 years?

 

But supposing, just supposing, we were playing a realistic game, its entirely possible that upon initial contact, all our vehicles stopped to regroup, and that initial DOW deploying rhino was in fact parked so it could relay orders to your commander after a brief analysis of what could be enemy units in the area.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah this game is about rules.. if we started blending fluff with the rules it will destroy the tactical game..

 

sure we can say the vehicle moved in to position before the game... ok then all your heavy weapon guys moved into position too and therefore cannot shoot this turn... see i can be an ass too!

 

The scout move im a little unsure about, i would like for scout moves to count as moving in a previous turn.. but scout moves is not a turn either..

I think this needs discussing further tbh, it cam up in a game with me and meatman a few days ago and has been bugging me ever since

[Ntin]

Can you imagine the size of the rulebook if GW tried to take on every possible permutation of the rules?

Personally, I think they leave a fair amount of rules in the category of "Bleedin' Obvious" and a lot of the rest in "Common Sense". You would probably find this situation cross referenced to both.

 

Shame many don't seem to understand those two categories, it is a game of wardollies after all... :P

 

RoV

 

I am guessing maybe another 10 pages to fill in incomplete rules and other mistakes? What would it matter if the rulebook was 50 or 100 pages longer? Rules that would fall under “common sense” are R.A.I. As soon as you stop going off what is written or cannot go off what is written you are playing by R.A.I.

[Koremu]

I don't think I've ever played a game of 40k where the rules weren't fudged slightly at some point. There's a lot of grey areas where common sense takes hold.

[greatcrusade08]

I am guessing maybe another 10 pages to fill in incomplete rules and other mistakes? What would it matter if the rulebook was 50 or 100 pages longer? Rules that would fall under “common sense” are R.A.I. As soon as you stop going off what is written or cannot go off what is written you are playing by R.A.I.

 

again using nonesenical terms such as RAI and RAW.. most rulebooks including 40k state clearly that occasionally rules are difficult to understand and you may have to discuss with your opponent or roll off..

If i were to use these terms i could argue that every rule that we use as RAI is infact RAW using the above....

 

Quite plainly put, no matter how well they write rules, there will always be a second interpretation.. even the worlds best lawyers cannot cover every eventuality.. and as i said before 40k is written by gamers not lawyers..

Ultimately if you cant use common sense then perhaps your playing the wrong game?

[Grey Mage]

If you think DnD requires no moderation, interpretation, or talks with the DM you never played 3.5, let alone the earlier editions.

[Seahawk]

My 3.5 play never had issues...

 

GC08 relax, and Ntin don't insert trolling remarks into otherwise okay sentences, lest either of you desire unhappy consequences.

 

I would make the argument that vehicles in the first turn would be much more likely to have "previously" moved at top speed

So any fast skimmers get their speed cover save on the first turn they get shot at, even if they haven't gone yet? Bikers get their 3+ cover for speed as well? Eldar come into a game with Fortune and Guide already on before the game begins, because why wouldn't it be otherwise? A CSM army should start with 3/4 of an actual list because the dreadnought blew away a few before the game started?

 

If you're going to argue for or allow what you're suggesting, you have to allow for everything else that can possibly happen in a turn to happen before the game. And that is just plain silly.

 

1st turn before vehicle moves are auto-hit. Easy as pie.

[Grey Mage]

My 3.5 play never had issues...

Not to get to far off topic, I played with several groups, two of wich often wanted to include 3rd party supplements, books from 3.0 that didnt always mesh well, and had... interesting interpretations of feats shall we say. Thankfully I now play with the 3rd alone, as the other two died around the time 4.0 came out.

[rat of vengence]

Can you imagine the size of the rulebook if GW tried to take on every possible permutation of the rules?

Personally, I think they leave a fair amount of rules in the category of "Bleedin' Obvious" and a lot of the rest in "Common Sense". You would probably find this situation cross referenced to both.

 

Shame many don't seem to understand those two categories, it is a game of wardollies after all... :)

 

RoV

 

I am guessing maybe another 10 pages to fill in incomplete rules and other mistakes? What would it matter if the rulebook was 50 or 100 pages longer? Rules that would fall under “common sense” are R.A.I. As soon as you stop going off what is written or cannot go off what is written you are playing by R.A.I.

Oh, I'd quite happily have a few more pages to clarify a few points, but that isn't what I am talking about. No matter how well they write a rulebook, there will be someone willing to try something else on. Some 'rules' aren't defined. What do you do if your cat knocks over a squad? How do you replace them on the table? Do they suffer a 'Perils of the Feline' roll?

 

Sometimes, the rules don't explain everything in words of one syllable or less because they assume we have at least some common sense. Perhaps they should have a chapter in the rulebook labelled "Bleedin' Obvious" but then, I don't think they should need to.

 

RoV

[Grey Mage]

One of my favorite sig quotes:

 

The rules dont state you have to read the top number on a die, some things are just that obvious.

 

Of course, you could 4+ it to see if you and your opponent can use whatever number you wish for the rest of the game.

[waaanial00]

That has got to be one of my favourite quotes of all time Grey Mage. Who came up with that nugget of pure gold?

 

Wan

[Wildfire]

First off, I think it's quite clear from the OP that the he is relaying a funny bit of RAW. I'm reasonably sure they came to some sort of agreement about what the vehicle could be hit on.

 

I do think that, in terms of the strictest RAW, he is correct. That being said, I also think this is an occasion in which you have to discuss how it works with an opponent. Strict RAW is not appropriate here. Until I read this, I had never even considered that a vehicle might not be auto-hit the first turn. I can see the temptation to call a scout move being made in a previous turn. I'm honestly not sure what I would say in that situation.

[Isiah]

By RAW there is no rule to answer as there is no previous turn to the first. And Scout moves are not made during a 'turn' so don't count here either.

 

Note that movement for this rule is assessed by:

 

"[...] actual distance covered from its original position." [bRB p63].

 

Thus if it hasn't moved any distance from its starting position (including going around in circles or just skipping backwards and forwards) then technically it hasn't moved for the purpose of the rule and can be auto hit. As turn 1 represents the models starting position it's auto hit. One can't start second guessing about theoretical movement to get into position prior to T1 and considering that as valid 'movement' that is just ridiculous - plus it doesn't occur in a 'turn'.

 

Stick to RAW or we'll all go mad ;).

 

Cheers

I

[asianavatar]

So on the first turn of the game, if an opponent says is considered to have moved and thus is not auto hit than it would also mean ordinance couldn't be fired cause the tank moved, only one weapon over Str 4 could be fired. We are all pretty confident that we can fire a basilisk on the first turn, or unload auto cannons and heavy bolters from a predator on the first turn, therefore the tank hasn't moved, thus no tanks are considered to have moved if its the first turn. You can't have it both ways.

[Wildfire]

By RAW there is no rule to answer as there is no previous turn to the first. And Scout moves are not made during a 'turn' so don't count here either.

 

Exactly correct. The key here is not the definition of movement, but that there is no previous turn! Since the rules are permissive, if the book does not specify that you can do something in a certain situation: you can't. That's RAW.

 

As I've said, I firmly belive that this is a clear case of RAW being unavoidably silly, and you and your opponent should come to an agreement on how to play it. Most often (that I've seen) this is auto-hit on first turn.

 

So on the first turn of the game, if an opponent says is considered to have moved and thus is not auto hit than it would also mean ordinance couldn't be fired cause the tank moved, only one weapon over Str 4 could be fired. We are all pretty confident that we can fire a basilisk on the first turn, or unload auto cannons and heavy bolters from a predator on the first turn, therefore the tank hasn't moved, thus no tanks are considered to have moved if its the first turn. You can't have it both ways.

 

Irreleveant. None of those actions depend on how far the vehicle moved in a previous turn, only how far it moved in the current turn.

[Spacefrisian]

Maybe GW should make a Page 5 just like Privateer has in their Rulebook.

[Race Bannon]

Another way to solve this: declare how fast and/or far the vehicle moved onto the battlefield. Sure, there are no rules for this, but it's a quick, easy to apply "rule" to avoid the situation. In fact, this suggestion shouldn't even be in this forum :)