Shooting Terminators

[Smirnov]

What are they for?

 

I've been playing Templars and used only assault terminators all the way. Now I'm considering building a vanilla army (pobably Imperial Fists) and the elite choice of shooty terminators came to my mind. But after considering the idea a little I could not find any major pro's to them. Ok, they have 2+/5+ save, which is good against regular weapons, but bad against power and low ap weapons. They can move and shoot their heavy weapons, but they have limited choice of heqavy weapons. They are lacking in close combat. They can teleport... but is it worth the price?

 

So, what am I missing? How do you cook them?

[Koremu]

They are lacking in close combat.

Wat.

 

4 guys with Power Fists (with the option of upgrading to an extra D6 on armour pen as well) and 2A base is hardly "lacking". Doing that with any of the other unit types that can (Vanguard and Command Squad) would cost a minimum of 5 points per model more. In addition to being cheaper, Tactical Terminators also have better saves, better mobile firepower and can teleport in.

 

I have the most success with using them in combination with Tactical Squads with Teleport Homers. I often include a Librarian just for that extra "kick" - and a unit from the first company makes a reasonable bodyguard for an officer of the Librarian's standing.

[Roachboy]

never underestimate regular terminators, my personal favourite is 5 man with cyclone launcher, deployed in cover they're difficult to shift, and anything assaulting them has to go at I1 as well (unless they have frag grenades grrr)

 

Assault terminators are only truly effective (in my opinion) once you fork out another 250 points on a land raider for them, whilst regular terminators can just shoot all game, then assault if they need to :tu:

[pattison]

shooty termies are cool.

you just have to take their name into account when you use them.

'tactical' terminators.

if the assault termies are the mace, then these are a precise but strong longsword.

tac squads on steroids!

and yea, cyclones ftw.

[waaanial00]

Certainly was impressed with them last night. I played a weird list comprising of 7 Tactical Terminators, 7 Assault Terminators, bunch of scouts, bunch of Landspeeders and a thunderfire against some blood angels. The funny thing was that the Tactical Terminators kept getting charged and kept losing slightly the first round then crushing the opponent in the second.

 

My Tactical Terminators went through 3 combat squads of Assault Marines, Lemartes in combat then they ripped a close combat arm off a Furioso then broke it in half with the remaining power fist after it spooned all its attacks.

 

They are not pushovers in combat, they just dont do well to power weapons which most things without a Storm Shield have in common with them. I think combined with a CC scout squad they would really kick some scum to the kirb.

 

Wan

[glayvin34]

They are quite the bomb diggity in CC. I often run them in a Land Raider, my opponents often send things like Dreadnoughts and Bike Squads with meltas against it, and those fall in usually 1 turn to 10+ PF attacks. Apart from being charged by power weapons, which doesn't happen too often if they're in a LR, they live for EVER.

[angry man]

i think id sooner run a squad of assault termies all with TH/SS - termies are most useful when put in LRs - if theyre in a LR they cant shoot, so why bother having the gun in the first place - may aswell take the best assault unit available in the book.

 

a good list should probably have enough firepower coming from elsewhere to not need the SB shots from a termie unit anyway.

 

i see tact termies as a glorified tact marine squad - only they dont score, cant take melta and have a price tag of over twice as much and for them to take a transport you have to pay over 7 times the price of the humble rhino. in essence i think thye do a similar job to tact marines but cost a lot lot more

 

AM

[glayvin34]

i think id sooner run a squad of assault termies all with TH/SS - termies are most useful when put in LRs - if theyre in a LR they cant shoot, so why bother having the gun in the first place - may aswell take the best assault unit available in the book.

 

a good list should probably have enough firepower coming from elsewhere to not need the SB shots from a termie unit anyway.

 

i see tact termies as a glorified tact marine squad - only they dont score, cant take melta and have a price tag of over twice as much and for them to take a transport you have to pay over 7 times the price of the humble rhino. in essence i think thye do a similar job to tact marines but cost a lot lot more

 

What about 2 Strength 8 Power Weapon attacks and 3 on the charge? Assault a something with a tact squad and your squad dies completely. Assault a something with a terminator squad and it dies completely.

 

And are you really comparing the Land Raider to a Rhino in a transport capacity? Have you ever seen a LR last the whole game because your opponents doesn't have high strength weapons to kill it? I have on many occasions. Have you ever had a rhino taken down by bolter fire? I have on many occasions.

 

EDIT: One more thing, how do they do the same thing as tactical squads? They have better assault, completely different Heavy Weapons, different transport choices, aren't troops, and they can deep strike. If you're using them the same way you use a tactical squad, you are wasting 200+ points.

[Smirnov]

They are lacking in close combat.

Wat.

Well, compared to Assault terminators...

And then. We are in close combeat. Enemy squad gets his full attack on us even before we can even start to retaliate. Assault Terminators would dump us. In the last game against marines my Sword Brether lost only one battle brother to ten whiped out terminators...

 

So. They are good, ok.

How do I use them?

[Koremu]

What I usually do is hold them in Reserve, and then bring them down at the most threatened Objective once the enemy evolves his battle plan. Usually, 5 Terminators and a Librarian in TDA will mess up your opponents plans good and proper while your own units head for Objectives or pick on targets of opportunity.

 

Teleport Homers are important. I take a minimum of 2.

[Roachboy]

I think how you use them depends entirely on the rest of your list/overall strategy. I prefer to use regular terminators in a gunline style army. They give you some decent firepower and excellent counter assault. Deploy them in some half decent cover and blast away.

 

Lysander can help for his bolter drill and bolster defences rule as well

[Smirnov]

What I usually do is hold them in Reserve, and then bring them down at the most threatened Objective once the enemy evolves his battle plan. Usually, 5 Terminators and a Librarian in TDA will mess up your opponents plans good and proper while your own units head for Objectives or pick on targets of opportunity.

 

Teleport Homers are important. I take a minimum of 2.

So they are more a supporting squad, rather then main assault?

[Koremu]

What I usually do is hold them in Reserve, and then bring them down at the most threatened Objective once the enemy evolves his battle plan. Usually, 5 Terminators and a Librarian in TDA will mess up your opponents plans good and proper while your own units head for Objectives or pick on targets of opportunity.

 

Teleport Homers are important. I take a minimum of 2.

So they are more a supporting squad, rather then main assault?

For me, yes. But that's more to do with how I play than with how they must be used.

[ShinyRhino]

I like the flexibility of Tactical Terminators. As has been mentioned, they're no slouch in close combat, especially on the charge against a unit with only one power weapon. And they're nigh impervious to standard shooting (outside of Battlecannons, concentrated plasma, and concentrated lascannons).

You can use them in a variety of different deployment methods. I have used the method Koremu mentioned in the past. Drop a 5-man squad into the thick of the fighting and wreck up the place. I've also had this done TO me. I was mashing the faces of a Sternguard unit with Cantor and a Libby with my Bike Captain, a bike combat squad, and a Dread. Seriously chopping down Sterguard with every swing of my relic blade. Pinched Kantor's face clean off his skull with a DCCW. But then that 5-man Terminator squad landed next to the fight using a drop pod locator beacon. They fired out some random shooting on arrival, killing a few nearby Marines. Then they charged into the combat and punched my captain and my Dread to custard, and I lost the fight in that area.

I also really like them as a large 10-man unit slogging across the board. Take two CMLs, maybe a couple chainfists, and either a Libby in TDA, or a Chaplain in TDA. You can put 20 stormbolter shots, and four krak/frag shots downrange every turn, even on the move. Even a 30-strong Ork Boyz mobis taking big big damage from that. of course, it's hellaciously expensive to do this, but it'll take an opponent by surprise when you don't stuff them into a Land Raider.

[templargdt]

I just finished painting up my 5 terminator squad last night and I think I'm going to use them in one of two ways:

 

1. Reserves via deepstriking. Having a terminator squad drop later in the game somewhere is probably going to seriously mess with my opponents game plan.

 

2. Counter assault. Place terminators in cover, blaze away with cyclone at vehicles or everything with foot troops.

[Smirnov]

I like the flexibility of Tactical Terminators. As has been mentioned, they're no slouch in close combat, especially on the charge against a unit with only one power weapon. And they're nigh impervious to standard shooting (outside of Battlecannons, concentrated plasma, and concentrated lascannons).

So far the most effective ranged weapon against Terminators were... bolt pistols. Can't even say how many brothers fell to these foul devices! :lol:

 

Trying to sum it up a little... We can use tactical terminators as:

1) Secondary melee assault force (no one would argue that they lose to specialised assault unit, I hope) as they can put up some fight.

2) Enemy backline harrasment force - deep striking during the battle to wreck havoc.

3) Mobile heavy weapon-wielding cover-using heavy-armored infantry. Place them agains enemy charge line and the charge is no more.

4) Lots of firepower with decent save.

 

Do I miss something?

[Sparhawk]

The only thing about your first point is what you mean by a specialized assault unit.

 

If we're talking Assault termies then you're right, if we're talking an assault squad then I may have to give it to the terminators. In order for the assault unit to really break through the Termies they will need to be kitted out with multiple power weapons, or just have the an obscene number of attacks, although I once saw about 12-15 Kroot charge a single terminator and they still lost the combat...

[ShinyRhino]

The only thing about your first point is what you mean by a specialized assault unit.

 

If we're talking Assault termies then you're right, if we're talking an assault squad then I may have to give it to the terminators. In order for the assault unit to really break through the Termies they will need to be kitted out with multiple power weapons, or just have the an obscene number of attacks, although I once saw about 12-15 Kroot charge a single terminator and they still lost the combat...

 

"Specialized assault unit" typically means things that can take down any sort of armor save on a charge, attack with many strikes at high-I, or simply attack with force of numbers. Things like Banshees can carve up any unit in assault because of a mass of power weapons and high-I. Boyz Mobz can take you down through sheer volume of attacks (especially on the charge).

 

Oddly enough, our Assault Squads aren't really a specialized assault unit. They're a fast-moving cleaner unit. The limit on power weapons in the squad at one is the crippler for this role. Now, Vanguard with power weapons, an honour guard, or a CC-oriented Command Squad all do dedicated assault better than an assault squad, due to higehr statline and ability to ignore lots of armor saves.

[glayvin34]

Oddly enough, our Assault Squads aren't really a specialized assault unit. They're a fast-moving cleaner unit. The limit on power weapons in the squad at one is the crippler for this role. Now, Vanguard with power weapons, an honour guard, or a CC-oriented Command Squad all do dedicated assault better than an assault squad, due to higehr statline and ability to ignore lots of armor saves.

So true. In my first few games I thought a 10-man assault squad could take out a 5-man Tactical Terminator squad, 'cause, dude, they're assault troops and tactical terminators aren't assault troops, and they're twice as many of them. My mathhammer was way off, though, I would kill 0 to 3 termies and lose all 10 men.

 

So I'd say that Tactical termies win in assault against even specialized assault units like mobs of boyz but lose against "elite assault units" and by that I mean your Vanguard, Honor Guard, Banshees, and other units with power weapons.

[Smirnov]

The only thing about your first point is what you mean by a specialized assault unit.

 

If we're talking Assault termies then you're right, if we're talking an assault squad then I may have to give it to the terminators. In order for the assault unit to really break through the Termies they will need to be kitted out with multiple power weapons, or just have the an obscene number of attacks, although I once saw about 12-15 Kroot charge a single terminator and they still lost the combat...

Well, my Sword Brethren cope with them, I've seen banshees do quite well and melee Sisters of Battle (forgot the name) as well as orks.

[Chengar Qordath]

So I'd say that Tactical termies win in assault against even specialized assault units like mobs of boyz but lose against "elite assault units" and by that I mean your Vanguard, Honor Guard, Banshees, and other units with power weapons.

A giant mob of Ork Boyz could probably still win combat thanks to the sheer number of attacks orks have if they get the charge; even a 2+ armor save tends to break down when its up against the sheer number of attacks 30 charging Ork boyz get. The same applies to other cc mob units; even a 2+ save can be beaten by enough attacks.

[Sparhawk]

The only thing about your first point is what you mean by a specialized assault unit.

 

If we're talking Assault termies then you're right, if we're talking an assault squad then I may have to give it to the terminators. In order for the assault unit to really break through the Termies they will need to be kitted out with multiple power weapons, or just have the an obscene number of attacks, although I once saw about 12-15 Kroot charge a single terminator and they still lost the combat...

Well, my Sword Brethren cope with them, I've seen banshees do quite well and melee Sisters of Battle (forgot the name) as well as orks.

 

Well I don't know anything about the Templar as I have never played with or against them. The Banshees would fall under the heading of Kitted out with Power weapons and orks have the obscene attacks. I just wanted to understand what was meant by your comment that's all. I didn't want you thinking that an Assault Squad or a Kroot Carnivore squad was going to sweep aside the termies without a second thought thats all.

[ShinyRhino]

So I'd say that Tactical termies win in assault against even specialized assault units like mobs of boyz but lose against "elite assault units" and by that I mean your Vanguard, Honor Guard, Banshees, and other units with power weapons.

A giant mob of Ork Boyz could probably still win combat thanks to the sheer number of attacks orks have if they get the charge; even a 2+ armor save tends to break down when its up against the sheer number of attacks 30 charging Ork boyz get. The same applies to other cc mob units; even a 2+ save can be beaten by enough attacks.

 

Yeah, a 2+ save is great on a multiwound model, like a Captain. But it's not so great on single-wound Terminators. You lose a two-attack powerfist every time you roll a one!

[Voltaire]

What are they for?

 

but they have limited choice of heqavy weapons.

 

They don't need a wide selection of heavy weapons when they have access to a the best portable heavy weapons available to marines.

 

Portable assault cannons anyone?

 

Shooty terminators are basically bigger, better and scarier tactical squads. They're fire-support, and crowd control.

Sure they hit last in CC but they're going to be the ones walking away laughing when alls said and done.

[Warprat]

Which is better, cyclones or assault cannons? Assault cannons are good if they rend, but you give up two storm bolter shots and only have 24" range. Cyclones, you give up nothing, have much better range (and templates,) but less penetration. They both cost the same.

 

Of course if you are Dark Angels, then assault cannons hands down...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Dark Angels, not Dark Angles...