Shooting Terminators

[Mithril hound]

Well, i give cyclones to my th/ss squads, gota love wolves eh?

[chapter master 454]

Tactical terminators are GREAT. Can your thunderhammers carve a land raider up like sunday dinner? no didn't think so. The fact is that while tacticals would lose against assault terminators in ASSAULT, assault terminators lose to tactical terminators in shooting as do alot of other units. Just because they have powerfists doesn't mean they need to be in combat, the great thing is they just can't be ignored as they have at min a 24" threat bubble. Running Lysander with them is actually the best synergy for Lysander as you benefit from all of Lysanders abilities then.

 

I roll 5 of them with lysander land raider redeemer style, armed with CML and 4 chainfists (would be 5 but DARN that sarge). So far when my opponent runs his land raider terminators against me, he soon finds me throwing lysander at his terminators and my terminators at his land raider: thank you for the easy 450 or more points because afterwards my terminators just carry on with otehr enemy units because Lysander earns his paycheck by tying up what you love most, those precious assault terminators who suddenly spent 2-3 turns killing ONE guy. well done you earned back 200 points, got back news: my terminators earned their points back from nailing you land raider and going through the rest of your army as a distraction that hurts. Oh, the redeemer earns it's stars by rolling around after your entrenched tactical squads and roasting them and so far corryvreakan has yet to disappoint me. So yea, I take 3 units and not only demolish your own line breaker synergy but also break your line in the same move. yea i had a 3rd unit, but the result is the same even if you take your own lysander but worse for you, I tie up 400 odd points for 2-3 turns with a 200 point character while my tactical terminators are going around just laying down ranged pain.

 

Assault terminators to me are completely PANTS. They rely so much on land raiders it's funny and the fact I can just dance round them without worry because they have to get into combat to do anything. used them once and their performance was so sluggish and pathetic I was appauld. Far too unreactive to what I am used to but still, why are assault terminators in higher praise than tactical ones? or is that my imagination (just it seems they are the 'ultimate' terminator choice among many).

[Koremu]

Assault Terminators are absolutely fantastic against anything which thinks it is top dog in CC. Lysander is just 3 Assault Termis in one model.

[chapter master 454]

Assault Terminators are absolutely fantastic against anything which thinks it is top dog in CC. Lysander is just 3 Assault Termis in one model.

 

4 actually, he has 4 wounds. so effectively he IS a terminator assault squad.

[Koremu]

Assault Terminators are absolutely fantastic against anything which thinks it is top dog in CC. Lysander is just 3 Assault Termis in one model.

 

4 actually, he has 4 wounds. so effectively he IS a terminator assault squad.

I tend to rate him as three because he has fewer attacks, albeit at a higher WS.

[Voltaire]

The good thing about assault terminators is that they can carve through 'elite' units like a zealot on a zergling.

 

 

Take a couple of carnifex's for example. They're cheap now but still pretty durable and can cause quite a bit of anxiety once they reach you. A fire magnet basically. Now you may suggest I shoot at it for an extend period of time with tac-termies, what with there assault cannons/CML and x5 or more stormbolters. Eventually you'll kill it, maybe if your lucky it'll be in three turns... that is if your rolling godly six's all over and the nid armor is failing.

 

Now look at the assault squad, same enemy same situation. You put the assault squad in a normal landraider (Because that's the best one available) and move six towards the fex. Then you shoot. Possibly score a wound or two. Next turn, move flat out, unload assault squad armed with three TH/SS and two LC. They charge. Claws do nothing of course.

Carnifex may attack first (depending on upgrades) you'll more than likely save with the SS, then you use the hammers....

 

 

It's dead.

 

One assault vs multiple turns of shooting as you hope that something will wound it.... hmm. Oh and lets not forget you can get back into the raider and repeat the process.

 

 

Theres strengths and weaknesses to both types.

[Arkios]

One assault vs multiple turns of shooting as you hope that something will wound it.... hmm. Oh and lets not forget you can get back into the raider and repeat the process.

 

Who says you have to waste all that tasty Storm Bolter shooting on the big'uns? On the turns leading up to the carnifex charge, you can shoot all the little griblies around it to hell and back with the massed Storm Bolter fire. That is a lot of little bugs that you can kill with 2-3 turns of shooting 20 stormbolters + frag missiles.

 

Also, for the price of 6 Assault Terminators and a Land Raider, you can get 10 Tactical Terminators with heavy weapons and points to spare.

 

Finally, Tactical Terminators have powerfists too you know... so against the Carnifex, you will get 9 terminators with 3 attacks each on the charge for a total of 27 power fist attacks as opposed to 6 Hammernators with a total of 18. Tactical Terminators will still kill the 'Fex just as dead as Hammernators, they may just take a few more casualties without the 3++ save of the storm shield.

 

 

 

Thunder Hammer Terminators are great and all, but they aren't the be all end all of Terminators. In reality, the only thing that makes them worth taking above Tactical Terminators is the 3++ storm shield, which is nice when you are facing power weapon attacks or lots of AP1 or 2... But if you are not, then all you have are Tactical Terminators that cannot shoot. Something to consider.

[Sparhawk]

I always feel a little strange in that I don't just think of my Assault Terminators as a vehicle for gettting TH/SS to a target. I don't actually believe in taking a whole unit of TH/SS unless I know that I am going to be facing large amounts of MCs. I'm more inclined to take at least one more pair of LCs than I do of Thunder Hammers just because I've found that about 16 PW attacks on the charge striking at initiative can tear through just about anything.

 

That having been said, I love my tactical terminators and I plan on running them with the CML more often in my lists for the sheer versatility that the unit offers.

[bt2278]

Claws do nothing of course.

 

I'm so happy that my assault terminators get furious charge and 4 of them can reliable shred a carnifex to pieces at initiative 5... ;)

[Xeonic]

If you're using assault cannon on those tac termies, you all of a sudden introduce them to the very real possibility of being instant deathed by rends... Just wanted to point that out. ;)

 

Statistically you get around(a little less than) 1 rend per round of shooting, and at 24" range it should average out to one dead fex and some change with dual assault cannon, and assault cannon also happen to be effective vs everything else in the nid list too.

 

Of course I'm one of those crazy people who still use assault cannon just because of the grin I get when I roll rends. :D

That and I never feel I'm "wasting" those storm bolter shots shooting at stuff outside storm bolter range, and I rarely shoot vehicles with them(though they certainly work fine for that).

[Arkios]

Ah, another Assault Cannon afficionado, I see. Excelent! well, Ive posted this in another thread, but it makes sense to pose it here too:

I've crunched the numbers and it turns out that Cyclones and Assault Cannons are about equal against pretty much all possible targets (even vehicles). The Cyclone set up comes out barely ahead vs light infantry (especially if they are tightly packed) and MEQs only due too the additional storm bolter shooting being taken into account. Assault Cannons are still slightly better off against 4+ and 2+ armor. As for vehicles, a Cyclone has the upper hand against AV 11, the Assault cannon against AV 14, and against AV 10, 12, and 13 they are equal. The only major factors to consider between the two are Rending and Range. Assault cannon has Rending which can make it a threat to 2+ armour, AV 14 and units with FNP, while the Cyclone has the ability to reach out to 48".

 

I choose Assault Cannons because if I were to take long range shots with the Cyclone, I would be wasting all of the wonderful massed storm bolter fire that the rest of the unit can be putting out. I don't want to waste it, so I simply won't shoot at targets out of 24"... and since I'm doing that I might as well go with the weapon that operates at that range that has rending too!

 

Most importantly, is that the assault cannon wins out when the "Rule of Cool" is factored in. A sweet looking mini-gun in hand looks way cooler than a big rectangular box on top of the terminators head.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Thanks for the info, Arkios. Also, understandably a good list will have enough missile launchers or anti-tank to make up for the lack of a cyclone. Might as well take the assault cannon for variety and effectiveness. I guess it also depends on who you are fighting, though.

[Voltaire]

Claws do nothing of course.

 

I'm so happy that my assault terminators get furious charge and 4 of them can reliable shred a carnifex to pieces at initiative 5... ;)

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the toughness of a 'fex 5 or 6? How often are you going to actually wound the fex?

 

 

Also... Initiative 5? On vanilla-nators? Please explain.

[Koremu]

Claws do nothing of course.

 

I'm so happy that my assault terminators get furious charge and 4 of them can reliable shred a carnifex to pieces at initiative 5... ;)

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the toughness of a 'fex 5 or 6? How often are you going to actually wound the fex?

 

 

Also... Initiative 5? On vanilla-nators? Please explain.

Add one Khan. Hey presto, STR5, Init 5 LC Terminators. 5+ to wound with a re-roll vs a Carnis T6. Averaging about 7 wounds from 5 termis, plus whatever Khan himself does (which could include straight ID-killing a 'fex or three, on a good day)

[bt2278]

Yeah, as mentioned above "furious charge" is all you need... either granted by a IC or (in most of my games) just by playing with 4th ed. C.BT (furious charge = +3pts/model).

Strength 5 with reroll to wound/no armor save is more than sufficient to put a ridiculous amount of wounds to high toughness targets.

 

I know since release of the 5th edition C:SM hammernators with their 3+ inv. save are all the rage...

But disregarding every other terminator option is stupid. 5 LC equiped standard terminators (without any IC or special rule) with their strength of 4 still cause 4 wounds on a T6 carnifex when charging.

 

So it's just wrong to say lightning claws would do nothing against a Carnifex, just because someone told you again and again how awesome TH&SS are... A terminator squad with LCs just plain kills the poor carnifex before it has a chance to react... :D

[Brother Captain Josef]

Assault terminators are only truly effective (in my opinion) once you fork out another 250 points on a land raider for them, whilst regular terminators can just shoot all game, then assault if they need to :D

 

Agreed. I am huge a fan of the hammernator assault squad even though it does come to a whopping 450 points basic (you NEED the LR)... If you were to just spend all that on 1 x 10 man tac termies combat squadded or otherwise and fork out the paltry sum of 40 point for another cyclone ML you have a very dangerous unit that throws out 4 x missiles and 20 x bolter rounds a turn AND is deadly in assault (remember you have 5 extra for your money).

 

Ive proxied this in my 1500pt list (dropped a LS for the extra cyclone) and was very happy with its performance. 10 terminators are also a large psychological blow to your opponent too.

 

Even if you just opt to take 5 you can still spend all the points saved from the LR on 2 x combi preds, dual vindis or any other assortment of horribleness. Once I broke my hammernator habbit I felt FREEEEEE...

 

...

 

Ahem.

 

EDIT:

 

Just read the stuff on the Assault cannons. My math works out that an AssCann is as effective against armour as a twin linked las cannon... I havent worked it out yet but the only conceivable situation where the M launcher might be better is the more reliable AP of 3 rather than rending...

[hazardousZERO]

My favorite is a 10man termie squad with 2 CMLs and 2 ChainFists. Expensive but amazing my last game using them against necrons i didn't lose ONE. They killed a monolith some swarms, a few destroyers and took a lot of shots but not one fell. Shootie termies are great never underestimate them.

[Starblayde]

So I'd say that Tactical termies win in assault against even specialized assault units like mobs of boyz but lose against "elite assault units" and by that I mean your Vanguard, Honor Guard, Banshees, and other units with power weapons.

A giant mob of Ork Boyz could probably still win combat thanks to the sheer number of attacks orks have if they get the charge

In a game where I've seen 12 Ork Boyz kill Abaddon in one round of combat (oh yes), anything's possible. I've had TH/SS and LC Termies with a Chaplain teleport/top speed Land Raider in and cut through all sorts of squads like a hot knife through butter. Then again they've also had their backsides handed too them on a number of occasions

 

Simple lesson is: application of force.

 

Oh, and luck :P

[Koremu]

On average, a mob of 30 Ork boyz will wreck a 5 man Terminator Squad (either type). The remnants of a mob of 30 Ork boyz however that's just taken a Heavy Flamer and 4 Storm Bolters... that's a different matter. There's a tool for every job.

[Arkios]

EDIT:

 

Just read the stuff on the Assault cannons. My math works out that an AssCann is as effective against armour as a twin linked las cannon... I havent worked it out yet but the only conceivable situation where the M launcher might be better is the more reliable AP of 3 rather than rending...

 

Yes, a single assault cannon (with its 4 shots) is on par with (actually slightly better than) one shot from a single lascannon, and both are better than a single shot missile launcher for any anti-vehicle work.

 

HOWEVER, the Cyclone (and also the Typhoon) missile launcher is NOT a single shot missile launcher, it fires TWO missiles, and after running the math you will see that this second missile makes it more reliable than both the assault cannon and lascannon vs AV 11 specifically and better than the Lascannon vs AV 10 and 12.

 

 

*(By better, I mean a better chance to score a penetrating hit)*

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

cyclone just plain owns, but I prefer assault cannons per the rule of cool.

[chapter master 454]

I use the Cyclone missle launcher more as a short range weapon because lysander therefor gets the maximised bolter drill going (and while I sacrifice strength and AP for it, I can at least hit more times more efficently IMO). TH/SS terminators...I have five and I think I might just break off the arms for the LCs or turn them into addtional Tactical terminators. The TH/SS terminators to me are far too sluggish, sledgehammer is their name so dont wear it out. I personally prefer tactical terminators because they are hard hitting in both assault and close combat which makes them a far greater threat. The fact I also roll them with chainfists also means that I can carve up ANY target with them regardless of what they hide behind.

 

So far I am yet to find a better synergy unit for Lysander as well, he adds an incredibly good buffer via stand alone lascannons and other AP1 and 2 weapons, he lets their bolter hit their mark more often and the squad if defending a ruin at base can make use of the 3+ cover save. The stubborn also ensures little will make them run. Lysander sticks the digit up at weaken resolve (since the negative modifer would be negated on leadership checks and such I believe). Not to mention he adds a considerable weight in CC and is a titan of an IC killer. He will give wratihlords chinese burns that will tear their arms off while arm wrestling a defiler through an adamant wall while the hordes try and get past his paintjobs armour save!

 

The tactical terminators have proven themselves to me as far superior choice over assault terminators who I will admit have strength in CC but the only reason they reach it is because of the following rules of my conduct: Lysander and his crew must engage the most dangerous targets, they must engage the target in CC and if the target ha ranged weapons then a pre-charge blasting is used but if they have no ranged attacks then the pre-charge shooting is not done. While this may not maximise their use, I feel it gives the unit character in that they will not shoot those unable to retaliate at range. The land raider redeemer that delivers them though just has one code of conduct: ensure enough enemy units are roasted to feed the marines afterwards!

 

Oh and you don't tank shock Lysander, Lysander shocks tanks!

[waaanial00]

Dont forget that the all important difference between the Cyclone and the Assault Cannon, from my perspective anyway, is the ability to instant kill T4 creatures. Ok if said creature only has 2 wounds and is on his own the difference is negligable, however if it is a squad of 2W T4 creatures then I have to roll out my Cyclone. Despite the fact that I think the Assault Cannon looks sharper B)

 

Wan

[garreth]

After recent games I count chances for AC and CML to penetrate armor. First number is chances to just penetrate armor (glancing&penetrate hits), second number is chance to make penetrate hit. I count for 10 man squad with 2 AC or 2 CML.

 

AV ___________ 10 _______ 11 ________ 12 _______ 13 ________ 14

2xAC _______ 2.66/1.78 | 1.78/0.89 | 0.89/0.89 | 0.89/0.6 | 0.6/0.3

2xCML ______ 2.22/1.78 | 1.78/1.33 | 1.33/0.88 | 0.88/0.44 | 0.44/0

[Voltaire]

My favorite is a 10man termie squad with 2 CMLs and 2 ChainFists. Expensive but amazing my last game using them against necrons i didn't lose ONE. They killed a monolith some swarms, a few destroyers and took a lot of shots but not one fell. Shootie termies are great never underestimate them.

 

 

The emperor protects... with loaded dice. :D

 

 

But honestly how did you kill the temple of cheat? Really good roles I would assume?