Legion Commanders

[AGPO]

Simple question - I don't know if this is covered anywhere in the official fluff, but who commanded the legions before their Primarch was discovered? Were they under the direct command of the Emperor, managed by other Primarchs or did they have their own senior commanders? If they were marines then presumably these would be the only loyalists to have commanded a full legion other than Primarchs. How would these men have dealt with the rediscovery of their Primarch, the loss of their command and the imposition of their new leader's own background, tactics and values on the legion's own culture. Many of the Primarchs brought in old friends and servants from their homeworld into senior roles, how would the veterans of the great crusade take this, especially the men who were replaced?

[Bartol the Unforgiving]

In the short story After Desh'ea from the novel Tales of Heresy (bottom of pg. 380), there is a reference to a position known as Legion Master. Whether this position is unique to the Worldeaters (which is what the story revolved around) I don't know, but we can assume that the Astartes always kept their own hiearchy separate from Army and Navy command.

[Raulmichile]

And the Emperor and then Horus directed their operationes while the Primarchs were beung found. Note that the Emperor didn't create all the Legions at the same time. The Emperor founded them sometimes knowing in advance he was about to find a Primarch, like 1K Sons and the Alpha Legion for instance.

 

What we do know is that the oldest legion is the Dark Angels, the fist Legion to be commanded by a Primarch was the Luna Wolves and that the last legion to be founded and reunited with their progenitor is the Alpha Legion.

[AGPO]

I was under the impression that the Emperor didn't know Alpharius was about to be discovered, as Horus kept him secret for some time. There are references to some officers - mostly pre-reunion veterans - being concerned the 'how things used to be done' was being forgotten about or having concerns about the direction that their Primarch was taking the legion. THe only record I can think of about what a legion used to be like is the Imperial Fists. They took part in the reclamation of Terra and had an old-fashioned code of traditional honour duels. I only ask as I was considering the possibility of converting up some pre-reunion marines. I'd give them very early armour marks (I, II and maybe a couple of mk III), with lots of lightning bolts and single headed eagles. Instead of a badge they'd have legion markings

[Bane of Angels]

If you are doing a Unification Wars army then you'd be restricted to Mk I armour as Mk II didn't come into use until the Sol campaign was under way.

If you want to include Mk II and Mk III armour then you are probably looking at early great crusade era. Depending on the Legion you are doing the names would be different for Legions such as the Death Guard who were the Dusk Raiders and the World Eaters who were the War Hounds before being re-united with their Primarchs.

I can't remember off hand but some of the Legions are mentioned in the Collected Visions Heresy artwork books as having a rank for a marine leading a Legion. This varies though just as some Legions have chapters where as others have companies.

[Vodunius]

If you want to include Mk II and Mk III armour then you are probably looking at early great crusade era.

 

II & III are good right up to the Heresy - the legions were still in the process of replacing them with MkIV when the Heresy started.

[Lady_Mournival]

In one of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus books I believe it mentions that Iacton Qruze was the Legion Commander before Horus during the unification wars. Also either in on of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus books or Fulgrim it does mention that Rylanor used to be legion commander before Fulgrim came along.

[AGPO]

Hmm, my thinking is to work on some early-crusade era marines representing those legions who haven't found their primarchs yet. Dusk Raiders and War Hounds would be a good shout. Any info on colour schemes out there? Sorry to be a pain but I'm at uni and don't have any of the books with me.

[Lorgars Servent]

And the Emperor and then Horus directed their operationes while the Primarchs were beung found. Note that the Emperor didn't create all the Legions at the same time. The Emperor founded them sometimes knowing in advance he was about to find a Primarch, like 1K Sons and the Alpha Legion for instance.

 

I agree with you on the Alpha Legion I think their IA says that they had only recently been formed (like in the past 20 years or so before their Primarch(s) were discovered but A Thousand sons mentions that The Thousand sons were one of the legions present when the Great Crusade started as Arhiman describes their early training processes and how the emperor divided them up into the different legions even before they even left Terra!

[Verythrax Draconis]

Hmm, my thinking is to work on some early-crusade era marines representing those legions who haven't found their primarchs yet. Dusk Raiders and War Hounds would be a good shout. Any info on colour schemes out there? Sorry to be a pain but I'm at uni and don't have any of the books with me.

 

I'm almost sure that the War Hounds and World Eaters colors were the same, the Legion just changed names, not colors. I got this impression from the Tales of Heresy story, but now I don't know if I had read it, or just my mind playing tricks on me.

[Lady_Mournival]

Hmm, my thinking is to work on some early-crusade era marines representing those legions who haven't found their primarchs yet. Dusk Raiders and War Hounds would be a good shout. Any info on colour schemes out there? Sorry to be a pain but I'm at uni and don't have any of the books with me.

 

I'm almost sure that the War Hounds and World Eaters colors were the same, the Legion just changed names, not colors. I got this impression from the Tales of Heresy story, but now I don't know if I had read it, or just my mind playing tricks on me.

 

I concur, the World Eaters and War Hounds schemes were the same or is so implied in after De'Shea. If I can remember correctly the Dusk Raiders colours were mentioned in the Flight of Eisenstein though all I can remember specifically is that their entire right arm including shoulder were read; that's not SMP right by the way, that's from the marine's perspective right.

[AGPO]

Interesting, thanks for the help guys. A thought occured to me whilst reading this - The loyalist Sons of Horus reverted to the Luna Wolves name and colours. Would the War Hounds and Dusk Raiders have done the same? It would be nice to double up these models for early crusade games and a flight of the Eisenstein mini-campaign.

[Bane of Angels]

If you wanted to do Dusk Raiders prior to the discovery of Motarion then you'd be using Mk II - MkIII armour painted white with the right arm and both shoulder pads painted crimson.

Loyalist Death Guard probably wouldn't change their colours because the Death Guard changed to plague marines on route to Terra. The only surviving loyalist members of any of the traitor legions to survive Istvaan III made it to earth with Garro and took no further part in the war that we know of.

To my knowledge the War Hounds colours were never mentioned and there is nothing to suggest they changed their colours. They would however have changed their Legion symbol to the planet being devoured but we don't know what the war hounds badge was before that.

However the white armour and red arm of the Dusk Raiders comes from the original source of the Heresy which was the Epic Space Marine game. If this was the case then they'd be completely dark blue because that's what there original scheme was before the history was re-written, but that's just speculation on my part. :woot:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

If you wanted to do Dusk Raiders prior to the discovery of Motarion then you'd be using Mk II - MkIII armour painted white with the right arm and both shoulder pads painted crimson.

Loyalist Death Guard probably wouldn't change their colours because the Death Guard changed to plague marines on route to Terra. The only surviving loyalist members of any of the traitor legions to survive Istvaan III made it to earth with Garro and took no further part in the war that we know of.

To my knowledge the War Hounds colours were never mentioned and there is nothing to suggest they changed their colours. They would however have changed their Legion symbol to the planet being devoured but we don't know what the war hounds badge was before that.

However the white armour and red arm of the Dusk Raiders comes from the original source of the Heresy which was the Epic Space Marine game. If this was the case then they'd be completely dark blue because that's what there original scheme was before the history was re-written, but that's just speculation on my part. :woot:

 

the bold statement is highly debatable. i remember this subforum had a pretty long argument at to what the Emperpr' Children dreadnought (ancient Rylanor i think) was sent to guard shortly before the final attack and bombardment occured. i remember some people were saying it was a deep bunker or possible space ship, which being airtight would survive the Life eater virus.

 

WLK

[Tutteman]

If you wanted to do Dusk Raiders prior to the discovery of Motarion then you'd be using Mk II - MkIII armour painted white with the right arm and both shoulder pads painted crimson.

Loyalist Death Guard probably wouldn't change their colours because the Death Guard changed to plague marines on route to Terra. The only surviving loyalist members of any of the traitor legions to survive Istvaan III made it to earth with Garro and took no further part in the war that we know of.

To my knowledge the War Hounds colours were never mentioned and there is nothing to suggest they changed their colours. They would however have changed their Legion symbol to the planet being devoured but we don't know what the war hounds badge was before that.

However the white armour and red arm of the Dusk Raiders comes from the original source of the Heresy which was the Epic Space Marine game. If this was the case then they'd be completely dark blue because that's what there original scheme was before the history was re-written, but that's just speculation on my part. :lol:

 

the bold statement is highly debatable. i remember this subforum had a pretty long argument at to what the Emperpr' Children dreadnought (ancient Rylanor i think) was sent to guard shortly before the final attack and bombardment occured. i remember some people were saying it was a deep bunker or possible space ship, which being airtight would survive the Life eater virus.

 

WLK

 

HA! Nothing could compare to the Locked monster that was about if Loken survived ;) It was locked for a reason though...

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

If you wanted to do Dusk Raiders prior to the discovery of Motarion then you'd be using Mk II - MkIII armour painted white with the right arm and both shoulder pads painted crimson.

Loyalist Death Guard probably wouldn't change their colours because the Death Guard changed to plague marines on route to Terra. The only surviving loyalist members of any of the traitor legions to survive Istvaan III made it to earth with Garro and took no further part in the war that we know of.To my knowledge the War Hounds colours were never mentioned and there is nothing to suggest they changed their colours. They would however have changed their Legion symbol to the planet being devoured but we don't know what the war hounds badge was before that.

However the white armour and red arm of the Dusk Raiders comes from the original source of the Heresy which was the Epic Space Marine game. If this was the case then they'd be completely dark blue because that's what there original scheme was before the history was re-written, but that's just speculation on my part. :)

The problem with the Bold part is:

A) The Blood Ravens- Loyalist Thousand Sons, plus 4 fleets fled Prospero, each could have remained loyal

;) The Alpha legion, in a legion where each one was taught to think for themselves, you are seriously telling me not one did not like the idea of turning, and thats if the AL are even traitors.

C) As mentioned by others, there is the whole "Wheres Rylanor" story.

D) the way some legions were spread out, there had to be loyalists amounst them, just like there may well have been traitors amogst the loyal legions.

I am sorry about my spelling.

[The 13th Goat]

The problem with the Bold part is:

A) The Blood Ravens- Loyalist Thousand Sons, plus 4 fleets fled Prospero, each could have remained loyal

:D The Alpha legion, in a legion where each one was taught to think for themselves, you are seriously telling me not one did not like the idea of turning, and thats if the AL are even traitors.

C) As mentioned by others, there is the whole "Wheres Rylanor" story.

D) the way some legions were spread out, there had to be loyalists amounst them, just like there may well have been traitors amogst the loyal legions.

I am sorry about my spelling.

 

A) Woaw, the Blood Ravens ARE NOT Thousand Sons. At least, not in the direct sense your implying. Keep in mind loyalist Thousand Sons would have not fought when Prospero was invaded, much like Magnus intended to do. The Wolves attacked savagely, so in all doubt any concaincious objectors would have been tore apart. Yes their is a link between the two, and in some way i agree they are connected. But not in THAT way. Plus, what 4 fleets are you talking about? No Thousand Sons fled Prospero as far as i am aware. And what would they do if they did? They can't just return to the Imperium, their renegades. The Blood Ravens CANNOT be Thousand Sons.

B ) I agree with you hear. I think its flip of the other traitors; Most remained loyal, some turned over time. AL today does have some Chaos elements in it, and i doubt their all still functioning cohesively as one legion.

C)Personal Opinion: What would be important enough for a dreadnaught to be staioned guarding on a world where your fighting for survival? My thoughts would be a way off that hell hole. Keep in mind Abnett keeps going on about Loken surviving, would it be to hard imagine some survivors on Istvaan III if most of the forces went to fight on V and the dropsite massacre? Especially after Raven's Flight.....

D)Again agreed. While most would have followed their Primarch, some would have loyalty above all to the Emperor. Most were culled, but some would have survived...

[Bane of Angels]

The problem with the Bold part is:

A) The Blood Ravens- Loyalist Thousand Sons, plus 4 fleets fled Prospero, each could have remained loyal

B) The Alpha legion, in a legion where each one was taught to think for themselves, you are seriously telling me not one did not like the idea of turning, and thats if the AL are even traitors.

C) As mentioned by others, there is the whole "Wheres Rylanor" story.

D) the way some legions were spread out, there had to be loyalists amounst them, just like there may well have been traitors amogst the loyal legions.

I am sorry about my spelling.

 

It's only suggested speculation that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons. In twenty odd years of Heresy background material there has never been any mention of traitors that fought in the war on the side of the Imperium other than those that were betrayed on Istvaan III and that includes the original Space Marine epic system background material.

In the original story of the Eisenstein's escape to earth they were led by Captain Varren of the World Eaters and met in secret before the massacre took place. In the second version Garro leads the loyalists to earth and is imprisoned along with his comrades their fate unknown. In the final version Garro makes it to earth and after fighting a daemon possessed marine on the moon is seconded along with his brothers for a new mission that is suggested to either be founding the Inquisition or the Grey Knights.

 

The Alpha Legion are single minded but as a whole rather than as individuals. The fact that they use their Primarch's name rather than their own goes some way to support this, if their Primarchs turned chances are they turned as a Legion out of complete loyalty. That and their cause was seen as a higher calling to ultimately defeat chaos rather than side with the Warmaster. They fought to save mankind from chaos but embracing it.

 

Thousand Sons were loyalists but were forced to side with Horus, they tried to warn the Emperor but ultimately sealed their own fate. The Night Lords had little choice but to turn traitor seeing the charges that their Primarch faced and their escape from Terra, the Iron Warriors were ground down slowly with mind numbing siege campaigns until they turned and the Word Bearers were the first to turn to chaos and were ultimately responsible for turning the Warmaster to their cause.

 

If anything there may have been those amongst the loyalist Legions that agreed with Horus and could have turned on their brothers at the siege of Terra along with the guard regiments that turned at the last minute.

[Hyperion]

A) Woaw, the Blood Ravens ARE NOT Thousand Sons. At least, not in the direct sense your implying. Keep in mind loyalist Thousand Sons would have not fought when Prospero was invaded, much like Magnus intended to do. The Wolves attacked savagely, so in all doubt any concaincious objectors would have been tore apart. Yes their is a link between the two, and in some way i agree they are connected. But not in THAT way. Plus, what 4 fleets are you talking about? No Thousand Sons fled Prospero as far as i am aware. And what would they do if they did? They can't just return to the Imperium, their renegades. The Blood Ravens CANNOT be Thousand Sons.

 

4 fleets of Thousand Sons were mentioned in the novel, and Magnus told them not to attack the incoming Space Wolves armada. Therefore, it is entirely possible that some of them fled. Understanding that they were now regarded as traitors they would have hidden. After the Heresy, at the time of the 2nd Founding, they could have changed their name and icon to the Blood Ravens, and then returned to active loyalist duty. Given a vow of secrecy over their origins, new marines would be unaware of their geneseed, and after several generations of marines, the Chapter has no idea who they really are.

 

Possible.