The Night Lords Reputation

[Ashe Darke]

I like most people on this section of the board am reading or re-reading Soul Hunter. I just read something that was also mentioned in IA but it only really struck a chord now.

 

It says that their reputation grew to be so great that when people saw them coming they just gave up. Honestly I don't know how many worlds this could have been. As far as we've read a lot of the worlds that are populated by ex-Terrans have no idea who the Astartes are. They generally have a chat and explain the situation, this is because they have no idea about the crusade, who the Emperor is or what an Astartes is. And lets say that a planet gets crushed by them and some people leave the planet to go live somewhere else. They then spread the news about the crusade and the fear the attack inspired. Are the planetary leaders really gonna believe these people straight off the bat? I bet they would need quite a substancial bit of evidence for them to just give up as soon as they see the people they were told about by some people who turned up on their planet. How do they even get to tell the people who rule the planet? These other planets yet to meet the Imperium, I doubt they really know much about each other or really speak to each other so how this word of mouth spreads I don't know. Sure amongst Imperial worlds I'd expect it to spread, but they're not invading Imperial worlds.

 

Another point is that while they may get attacked by the Night Lords, they represent the Imperium and the people of this planet haven't met any of the other legions so why are they to think any of the other legions would be any different in their tactics so why should they inspire fear that others don't. What's to stop these people assuming that this is how all the legions fight? All they know is some guys called the Night Lords who represent the Imperium are coming. So lets say the word spreads, somehow, for some reason, I'm betting the word will say 'Yeah the Imperium are to be feared, if you see them coming, give up'. There will be some that just mention the Night Lords but somehow I get the feeling the Imperium will probably get more mention over the fact they are Night Lords seen as they are representatives for the Imperium. This would spread a fear of the Imperium as well as the Night Lords so why didn't other legions get people going 'Agh! Crap! It's that Imperium we were warned about.'

 

Ok, final situation. You have a small cosy sector of space that has like 5 neighbouring planets, they all speak to each other, it's cool. Night Lords turn up and win over a planet. News spreads to the other planets to give up as soon as they arrive. Lets assume that all 4 other planets have taken this on board and give up as soon as they turn up which is quite generous considering that's a nasty reputation gained from attacking one planet. This is still only one sector and it's not that many planet, plus they're pretty close. It's not like they travelled for months to get there just to see a white flag being waved at them. I doubt there would be many situations like this, with most of the planets they approach being more isolated than that. Some of the planets they come across are quite feral and lacking tech so how news got to them is a mystery. It's not like there's the Black Horse Courier to spread this stuff around.

 

This whole premise seems to work on the unconquered galaxy having a school yard rumour mill which I can't see happening.

[Legatus]

Well, first of all the Index Astartes Night Lords does not mention people surrendering to the Night Lords (or maybe it does at another point, but the passage I checked does not). It says that their methods became so infamous that "the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilised planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords." They were basically just keeping allready imperial worlds in check with their reputation.

It is the World Eaters that are said to have whole systems surrender wholesale rather than to face the wrath of the World Eaters. But given teh theme of the Night Lords it is not unimaginable that they had similar occurances as well.

 

As for the matter of plausibility, the Index Astartes (World Eaters) speaks of systems, not individual (and potentially isolated) worlds, so perhaps the World Eaters/Night Lords are destroying the first world in that system, after which the others surrender without a fight. Another explanation might be that a system system of stars probably has inter system trade and communication, so it is also imaginable that they do a bit of intergalactic trading, or are visited by intergalactic traders who bring them news of the Imperium's actions.

[Dark Mechanicum]

That is what I could see happening. You have better luck in that then in isolated worlds surrendering. I could see the system attack in a world getting completely overrun and the survivors and messages hitting other worlds. Also Legatus has a point in it was mainly the Fleets that went back to check on worlds that had the: Oh Damn, they are coming. Quick get rid of everything that will make them eat us.

[A D-B]

This whole premise seems to work on the unconquered galaxy having a school yard rumour mill which I can't see happening.

 

I hate the "small galaxy" feel of a lot of sci-fi. Like how everyone knows Boba Fett is the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy. Really? Really? We don't know the most "feared" mercenary in one single world, let alone 200 billion solar systems.

 

That reference in SH is from (yet more of) Sahaal's hyperbole in LotN, as well a bit of an extrapolation from the IA article. Mostly, I think it's reasonable to assume many rediscovered worlds were like the Interex or the "Imperium" - small empires that were annihilated by the (real) Imperium of Man for daring to resist. And once the NL's had screwed over the first couple of worlds, the others realised they had zero chances, and didn't want half their populations skinned alive on TV or whatever - so they waved the white flag.

 

But mostly:

 

Well, first of all the Index Astartes Night Lords does not mention people surrendering to the Night Lords (or maybe it does at another point, but the passage I checked does not). It says that their methods became so infamous that "the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilised planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords." They were basically just keeping allready imperial worlds in check with their reputation.

It is the World Eaters that are said to have whole systems surrender wholesale rather than to face the wrath of the World Eaters. But given teh theme of the Night Lords it is not unimaginable that they had similar occurances as well.

 

As for the matter of plausibility, the Index Astartes (World Eaters) speaks of systems, not individual (and potentially isolated) worlds, so perhaps the World Eaters/Night Lords are destroying the first world in that system, after which the others surrender without a fight. Another explanation might be that a system system of stars probably has inter system trade and communication, so it is also imaginable that they do a bit of intergalactic trading, or are visited by intergalactic traders who bring them news of the Imperium's actions.

 

Once again, Legatus is a wise and sagely mofo.

[Ashe Darke]

Well, first of all the Index Astartes Night Lords does not mention people surrendering to the Night Lords (or maybe it does at another point, but the passage I checked does not). It says that their methods became so infamous that "the mere mention of their presence in a system enough to ensure that civilised planets paid all outstanding tithes, ceased all illegal activity completely and killed those who bore deformities rather than invite a purge from the Night Lords." They were basically just keeping allready imperial worlds in check with their reputation.

It is the World Eaters that are said to have whole systems surrender wholesale rather than to face the wrath of the World Eaters. But given teh theme of the Night Lords it is not unimaginable that they had similar occurances as well.

 

As for the matter of plausibility, the Index Astartes (World Eaters) speaks of systems, not individual (and potentially isolated) worlds, so perhaps the World Eaters/Night Lords are destroying the first world in that system, after which the others surrender without a fight. Another explanation might be that a system system of stars probably has inter system trade and communication, so it is also imaginable that they do a bit of intergalactic trading, or are visited by intergalactic traders who bring them news of the Imperium's actions.

This is all kinda based on the worlds we've read about so far which have kinda been isolated. I guess the galaxy has a lot more planet clusters than other sources have led us to believe. I did cover this in my examples, I guess it just happened more often than I imagine. I imagine if it was like every cluster they only had to conquer one planet and the system was theirs, then it would be annoying.

 

Those thoughts kinda sprung to me as I was reading the book. I literally put it down at the end of the sentence and made the thread.

 

As for trading with untouched worlds I kinda find it hard to believe that rumours which would start off coming from traders and might end up in the ears of a planetary leader would be given much credence unless it was like people from numerous different worlds in which case they might need to pay a bit more attention. But like everyone in these books they'd probably be arrogant and not listen.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Ah 40K, your universe is so big that not even those who write in it know whats going on.

[Dryad]

In the big scheme, I think the plausiblity is irrelevant.

 

Every superhero and supervillain needs a power. In the same way, every Legion needs an image in order to maintain a creative palette for gamers and the readers.

 

After the idea of the Night Lords is established, we need to determine what makes them special. You can't just have a basic checklist:

 

-they are blue (ok, so are a bunch of Legions/Chapters)

-they have lots of skulls (um, anyone seen the "generic" Chaos upgrade sprue?)

-their combat doctrine involves fast calculated strikes (yawn... so does a bunch of other Legions)

 

And...

 

Oh, I know. How about we give them a dark Batman-ish characteristic. Ya, combat crime with fear... That's sound cool.

 

So we have the Night Haunter. His whole storyline on Nostramo as a growing Primarch foreshadows the entire ethics of the Legion. Without that fear-driven methodology, they are just another Legion. The whole idea of them coming into a system and terrorizing the hell out of everything is just an awesome piece of sci-fi. That's all that matters.

[Rain]

I don't remember where I read this (and I've read pretty much all NL fluff there is, the IA, LotN, TDK, SH), and unlike Legatus I lack an immediate repository of fluff to quote verbatim, but I believe that the Night Lords did very little actual conquering and were more the "cleanup crew" after other legions conquered planets. In other words, the Sons of Horus or World Eaters or whoever else would conquer a world, then like 4 Iron Warriors and their dog would be stationed on it to make sure it stays in compliance.

 

Shockingly this would sometimes be inadequate, and/or the 4 Iron Warriors would spot someone with red hair (obviously a heretical mutation) at which point they would call the Night Lords who would proceed to skin the population on TV as A D-B mentioned. As for how the World Eaters got this reputation. Well they're called the World Eaters for crying in a bucket, not the kind of name that implies negotiation or adherence to rules of "moral" warfare. Also they only got over a wall by climbing a ramp of their own brother's corpses.

[A D-B]

I don't remember where I read this (and I've read pretty much all NL fluff there is, the IA, LotN, TDK, SH), and unlike Legatus I lack an immediate repository of fluff to quote verbatim, but I believe that the Night Lords did very little actual conquering and were more the "cleanup crew" after other legions conquered planets. In other words, the Sons of Horus or World Eaters or whoever else would conquer a world, then like 4 Iron Warriors and their dog would be stationed on it to make sure it stays in compliance.

 

Shockingly this would sometimes be inadequate, and/or the 4 Iron Warriors would spot someone with red hair (obviously a heretical mutation) at which point they would call the Night Lords who would proceed to skin the population on TV as A D-B mentioned. As for how the World Eaters got this reputation. Well they're called the World Eaters for crying in a bucket, not the kind of name that implies negotiation or adherence to rules of "moral" warfare. Also they only got over a wall by climbing a ramp of their own brother's corpses.

 

I completely forgot about this. Me am dumb.

 

But yeah, surely true. There was definitely a little of the "Behave, or we'll call the Night Lords" going on. Even in 'Shadow Knight', the prequel short story to Soul Hunter, there's an extract where Talos and the others are killing the humans of a world with their bare hands, and the Imperial Fists are berating them from the sidelines for their brutality. But none of the Night Lords care, because if the Fists had brought the world to compliance properly, then the Night Lords wouldn't have had to come at all.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Its also mentioned in The Dark King that the Imperial Fists, Night Lords, and Emperors Children that did a campagh(sp) together just before Night Haunter attacked Rogal Dorn.

[Brother Nihm]

The clean-up aspect is very plausible.

 

Would it not make sense that the Night Lords acted in the capacity of a peace keeping force given all that we know (albeit a nasty one)?

The IA speaks of the Legion quelling unrest and keeping newly conquered systems (like Cheraut ) in check.

 

I believe that Rain is correct.

 

Both the IA, The Dark King, Soul Hunter and LotN hint at it. It would also be natural for them to be in that role, given Kurze's modus operandi. e.g. to set himself up at at top of the food chain, ruling those below through fear and terror.

 

"I was his ugly tool"

[Ashe Darke]

I don't remember where I read this (and I've read pretty much all NL fluff there is, the IA, LotN, TDK, SH), and unlike Legatus I lack an immediate repository of fluff to quote verbatim, but I believe that the Night Lords did very little actual conquering and were more the "cleanup crew" after other legions conquered planets. In other words, the Sons of Horus or World Eaters or whoever else would conquer a world, then like 4 Iron Warriors and their dog would be stationed on it to make sure it stays in compliance.

 

Shockingly this would sometimes be inadequate, and/or the 4 Iron Warriors would spot someone with red hair (obviously a heretical mutation) at which point they would call the Night Lords who would proceed to skin the population on TV as A D-B mentioned

That makes more sense, fair enough. I don't remember reading that but I've only read IA and most of SH.

[Hellios]

This whole premise seems to work on the unconquered galaxy having a school yard rumour mill which I can't see happening.

 

I hate the "small galaxy" feel of a lot of sci-fi. Like how everyone knows Boba Fett is the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy. Really? Really? We don't know the most "feared" mercenary in one single world, let alone 200 billion solar systems.

 

 

 

Most feared bounty hunter is not much different from most famous sports star on earth. You will get different answers from different people, but those who are good at what they do and are distinctly recognisable will be the ones most likely to be famous excluding other variables. He is most feared because of his fame. Just because he is the most famous doesn't mean he will be the best for the job in mind, although frequently he is. Personally the mercenary I fear the most is the one hunting me.

 

He has the skills, he has a distinct look, although others hake been mistaken/masqueraded as him. I don't find it hard to believe that in an interplanetary empire, trade consortium or even chatty neighbours that they might find out about what is going on from communications or fleeing refugees and... especially if the world that well was better defended than yours... you might well give up. Then with in the Imperium themselves they might actively advertise what the Night Lords or World Eaters or whoever do to keep people in line or at least the planetary government.

[vipertaja]

Someone already mentioned this in a different way but here's how I see the night lords (though I haven't finished soul hunter).

 

Night lords are feared because they make sure to spread their reputation. They use terror tactics, essentially they are terrorists, but their tactics aren't merely a tool, but partly the goal itself. Whether the people know they are space marines or called the night lords is pretty much irrelevant.

 

When planets surrender to them, I think it mainly means they do someting horrifying in a village or city and show it as widely and prominently as possible, on all channels (whatever passes for radio and TV) to the rest of the planet and nearby planets. They might use recordings to make their point even before they arrive.

 

Consider how easily people piss their pants in our world whenever a terrorist does something somewhere once.

Especially in some sheltered part of the world that's well off and comfortable. Our own media in fact does their job for them better then they ever could. The night lords are a lot better at these tactics and more frightening by default.

 

EDIT: Oh, and it's nice to have Aaron here.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Now that is an interesting comparision: Night Lord tactics and real world reactions to terroism. I think i'm going to steal that for a paper later in a Political Science class i'm taking.

 

The Dark King is I think the best right now in showing how the NL's worked during the heresy. You have them killing 1 in every 3 people to show that resistance will be dealt with harshly, Dorn doesn't like it and Curze shows him by handing a rebel a bolter and telling everyone that he is not to be harmed at all. So the rebel tries to shoot curze, who then beheads him. He tells Dorn that fighting honorably isn't how to make people believe but if you use fear, punishment, and justice then every society shall work together.

[vipertaja]

Now that is an interesting comparision: Night Lord tactics and real world reactions to terroism. I think i'm going to steal that for a paper later in a Political Science class i'm taking.

Sure, feel free to. I don't think there's anything there even to steal really... :o

For other real world aspects one could compare to night lords, take guerilla warfare in Vietnam for example,

with the stealthy hit & runs and gruesome displays of corpses for psychological effect etc..

 

The Dark King is I think the best right now in showing how the NL's worked during the heresy. You have them killing 1 in every 3 people to show that resistance will be dealt with harshly, Dorn doesn't like it and Curze shows him by handing a rebel a bolter and telling everyone that he is not to be harmed at all. So the rebel tries to shoot curze, who then beheads him. He tells Dorn that fighting honorably isn't how to make people believe but if you use fear, punishment, and justice then every society shall work together.

 

The pre heresy night lords I believe always used the kind of tactics I mentioned, but as you say back then they had to bring order...and their kind of order needed a powerful presence as well as cruelty, to show authority (while the kind of terrorism they now practise works better without a solid presense...leaving more to the imagination and boosting the hysteria). Pre heresy night lords could be compared to medieval and modern public dictatorial displays of punishment,

to keep people in line.

 

EDIT: I would add that terror tactics done well is really about doing as much damage as possible without really doing much work. Combine this with guerilla tactics of stealing enemy equipment and using their losses not only as victories but to add to ones strength (living off the enemy) it's pretty gruesome and effective.

[Dark Mechanicum]

I had a class at my local college that was the Art of War and I used the Night Lords as a prime example of terror tactics to the extreame, my teacher just looked at me and went wow, i'm a geek.

[vipertaja]

I had a class at my local college that was the Art of War and I used the Night Lords as a prime example of terror tactics to the extreame, my teacher just looked at me and went wow, i'm a geek.

 

:(

Well he was right, it can not be helped. ^_^

I think we're all a bit like that.

 

Though I can't remember using 40k in a presentation or anything

my old school notes and books are full of drawings and doodles.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I don't think you can call the Night Lords terrorists, or even compare them, because there are fundamental differences between the two.

 

The Night Lords, like all Astartes, are primarily shock troops designed to overload and destroy a target. How they go about it though is very different in that instead of relying on brute strength or finesse they go down a very psychological route.

 

I think that route has less to do with Kurze in origin than it did to do with the society of Man as a whole; if we didn't fear or respect the "biggest" or "most powerful" amongst us then the Big E would never have held sway.

In fact, if you consider that sentence we are in fact civilized Orks.

 

The mind is both the most powerful tool and the biggest weakness a person has, this effect is multiplied exponentially when the number of people increase (research 'pack mentality' or 'mob rule'). It revolves really around the priciple of leaving a single survivor to propogate the horror visited upon a world or town; this then leads that tale to spreading and growing in the telling. "If X can suffer such punishment then what happens when the punishers come to Y?" will be the thoughts, this leads to panic and panic leads to rash action; such as surrendering before there is even anyone or thing to fight.

 

Fear is like an iron rod; powerful and dangerous, but should a weakness be found it can snap into peices. The Night Lords went one step further though, it was fear of the unknown that proceeded them - and that is a powerful tool beyond any "iron rod".

 

EDIT: Thats almost an essay for me :)

[vipertaja]

I don't think you can call the Night Lords terrorists, or even compare them, because there are fundamental differences between the two.

 

The Night Lords, like all Astartes, are primarily shock troops designed to overload and destroy a target. How they go about it though is very different in that instead of relying on brute strength or finesse they go down a very psychological route.

 

I think that route has less to do with Kurze in origin than it did to do with the society of Man as a whole; if we didn't fear or respect the "biggest" or "most powerful" amongst us then the Big E would never have held sway.

In fact, if you consider that sentence we are in fact civilized Orks.

 

The mind is both the most powerful tool and the biggest weakness a person has, this effect is multiplied exponentially when the number of people increase (research 'pack mentality' or 'mob rule'). It revolves really around the priciple of leaving a single survivor to propogate the horror visited upon a world or town; this then leads that tale to spreading and growing in the telling. "If X can suffer such punishment then what happens when the punishers come to Y?" will be the thoughts, this leads to panic and panic leads to rash action; such as surrendering before there is even anyone or thing to fight.

 

Fear is like an iron rod; powerful and dangerous, but should a weakness be found it can snap into peices. The Night Lords went one step further though, it was fear of the unknown that proceeded them - and that is a powerful tool beyond any "iron rod".

 

EDIT: Thats almost an essay for me ;)

 

A terrorist is someone that uses fear and terror tactics to achieve goals.

The difference between our world terrorists and the post heresy night lords is that here terrorism is often used to fight a state or majority and possibly making demands, while the night lords are stated to pick targets that are weaker than them (though all in all they try to bring down the imperium so I guess they are underdogs in a way) and they don't really make demands any more. As I said the pre heresy legion was more authoritarian and used terror tactics, but the outright "terrorist" label would fit the post heresy legion more.

 

All in all I don't really see where we would disagree?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

If you consider a modern terrorist then their actions don't achieve anything, it's merely to cause damage where the Night Lords have an objective.

 

My only disagreement was over the use of "terrorist", everything else is my interpretation ;)

[vipertaja]

If you consider a modern terrorist then their actions don't achieve anything, it's merely to cause damage where the Night Lords have an objective.

 

My only disagreement was over the use of "terrorist", everything else is my interpretation ;)

 

The term terrorist doesn't depend on actual success. They still have some sort of goal or cause.

They usually also don't have technology on par with their opponents...the night lords do.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The term terrorist doesn't depend on actual success. They still have some sort of goal or cause.

They usually also don't have technology on par with their opponents...the night lords do.

 

I know that, but the parrallel doesn't stand up in my eyes because modern terrorists, though they may have a goal, have no realistic chance of achieving it.

[vipertaja]

The term terrorist doesn't depend on actual success. They still have some sort of goal or cause.

They usually also don't have technology on par with their opponents...the night lords do.

 

I know that, but the parrallel doesn't stand up in my eyes because modern terrorists, though they may have a goal, have no realistic chance of achieving it.

That's...really not my point. :P

[Lord_Caerolion]

The term terrorist doesn't depend on actual success. They still have some sort of goal or cause.

They usually also don't have technology on par with their opponents...the night lords do.

 

I know that, but the parrallel doesn't stand up in my eyes because modern terrorists, though they may have a goal, have no realistic chance of achieving it.

 

So? Because the Night Lords don't perfectly match one particular group of terrorists, they aren't terrorists themselves? Terrorism is defined as the use of terror to achieve some goal. Since the Night Lords use terror to achieve their goals, they are indeed terrorists. It doesn't mean anything that the current terrorists don't have much chance of succeeding, you may as well say the Night Lords aren't terrorists because they aren't fighting against America, as thats what the current terrorists do.

Motives don't matter, chances of sucess don't matter, the fact remains that Night Lords utilise terror to achieve their goals, and that is the core element of what a terrorist is.

 

In short, I really, really don't see where you're coming from.