The Night Lords Reputation

[vipertaja]

wow, only gone for a couple of days and I love reading the debate.

 

My comparisons when it came to RL armies were more guerilla style. I can see where they use the tactics as those used by terroists (in the causing extreme terror), Looking at their reputation from the viewpoint of the imperium what you see is thus:

 

- Excesses by the legion only known to those who have access to those documents.

- Their documented use of terror tactics

- Stories of how they attack different planets that to the imperium have no value

 

Thus from those three points you have a colored picture of what the Night Lords are about, its a distinct Imperium viewpoint. Lord of the Night and Soul Hunter gave us the Night Lord's point of view and the view of other Chaos Legions as in the case of Soul Hunter with Abaddon.

 

So their are two reputations being discussed, one seen through Imperium lenses, and the other seen through the eyes of themselves and their brethern.

 

Imperium: Terror tactics and fear causers that raid undefended planets and targets weaker then themselves.

 

Chaos: A legion that is falling in on itself and breaking apart into many splinter warbands and fleets.

 

To be honest I think terror tactics and guerilla warfare go well hand in hand, with a good amount of overlap.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I've been reading Soul Hunter and I must say that it has mildly confused me.. The Night Lords don't really seem to care for Chaos at all; alot of the characters seem to despise corruption, which isn't what i considered as a part of the Lords.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I've been reading Soul Hunter and I must say that it has mildly confused me.. The Night Lords don't really seem to care for Chaos at all; alot of the characters seem to despise corruption, which isn't what i considered as a part of the Lords.

That is why the Night Lords are my favorite traitor legion

 

they're just good guys trying to be bad. although I can't say I truly understand them

[quiethood]

In the IA it says that NL pretty much hate worship/blind following of any kind, be it chaos or the emperor. I think that the Night Lords we see in Soul Hunter are what the legion truely is. A legion struggling to find balance between what it was and what it could be. With nothing binding them together some use the only tools at their disposal-chaos or piracy/terror tactics. I think that Lord of the Night did a real injustice to people's perception of the legion as a whole. There's a quote in Shadow Knight that talks about how the legion when it goes to war, it sounds like, "lions and wolves slaying eachother, while vultures shriek above." I think that being said the legion doesn't terrorize so much as they stalk and hunt their prey. I believe that is the "fear" element that is associated with the Night Lords. They tell you they are coming for you, and while you know it's coming the fear that sets in whille waiting wreaks havoc. Their reputation up until Soul Hunter is all Imperial version, and even when the Night Lords were loyal, their methoods were still pretty misunderstood.

[vipertaja]

I've been reading Soul Hunter and I must say that it has mildly confused me.. The Night Lords don't really seem to care for Chaos at all; alot of the characters seem to despise corruption, which isn't what i considered as a part of the Lords.

 

I don't know what Soul Hunter has to say on this until I read through it, but Night Lords and Iron Warriors don't really worship chaos. Both certainly use chaos to their benefit, but while the Iron Warriors show some token respect for the chaos gods and may not think too highly of the god cults, Night Lords outright scorn and despise those who dedicate themselves to outright serving the gods.

 

They seem to be the only legions possibly with the addition of Alpha Legion who seem to have such a mentality.

Funny how the old 1st edition realm of chaos books name night lords as khornate and iron warriors as slaaneshi. :)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I've been reading Soul Hunter and I must say that it has mildly confused me.. The Night Lords don't really seem to care for Chaos at all; alot of the characters seem to despise corruption, which isn't what i considered as a part of the Lords.

 

I don't know what Soul Hunter has to say on this until I read through it, but Night Lords and Iron Warriors don't really worship chaos. Both certainly use chaos to their benefit, but while the Iron Warriors show some token respect for the chaos gods and may not think too highly of the god cults, Night Lords outright scorn and despise those who dedicate themselves to outright serving the gods.

 

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

 

It actually makes me think differently, at least about the Night Lords, with regards to Traitor Legions.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I've been reading Soul Hunter and I must say that it has mildly confused me.. The Night Lords don't really seem to care for Chaos at all; alot of the characters seem to despise corruption, which isn't what i considered as a part of the Lords.

 

I don't know what Soul Hunter has to say on this until I read through it, but Night Lords and Iron Warriors don't really worship chaos. Both certainly use chaos to their benefit, but while the Iron Warriors show some token respect for the chaos gods and may not think too highly of the god cults, Night Lords outright scorn and despise those who dedicate themselves to outright serving the gods.

 

It actually makes me think differently, at least about the Night Lords, with regards to Traitor Legions.

Aye, but thats the scary part. are you not being seduced by the ruinous powers?

 

once those thoughts of hey these guys might really just be misunderstood and cast down forgotten, mistreated arise its time to ask the Emperor for strength.

Juan you have some atoning to do

[vipertaja]

I've been reading Soul Hunter and I must say that it has mildly confused me.. The Night Lords don't really seem to care for Chaos at all; alot of the characters seem to despise corruption, which isn't what i considered as a part of the Lords.

 

I don't know what Soul Hunter has to say on this until I read through it, but Night Lords and Iron Warriors don't really worship chaos. Both certainly use chaos to their benefit, but while the Iron Warriors show some token respect for the chaos gods and may not think too highly of the god cults, Night Lords outright scorn and despise those who dedicate themselves to outright serving the gods.

 

It actually makes me think differently, at least about the Night Lords, with regards to Traitor Legions.

Aye, but thats the scary part. are you not being seduced by the ruinous powers?

 

once those thoughts of hey these guys might really just be misunderstood and cast down forgotten, mistreated arise its time to ask the Emperor for strength.

Juan you have some atoning to do

Intruder in our midst! Get him! :D

[Dark Mechanicum]

heh, so we have somebody who is liking the were bad because we want to be attitude of the NL, come brother, join us.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

heh, so we have somebody who is liking the were bad because we want to be attitude of the NL, come brother, join us.

 

It's not really that, i suppose it comes down to the vindication aspect plus the representation of the characteristics in Soul Hunter.

 

Curze said that they were right to do what they did - becoming traitors - because of the way the Imperium would turn on them for what they were becoming, but also that the Emperor was right to seek their deaths for what they were becoming.

 

I am enraptured by the thought that Curze was both this figure of.. well not love, but some kind of caring, whilst also being a brutal killer who would use the most frightening measures to achieve his goals.

[Kodanshi]

Soul Hunter is a brilliant read, and i'm not even half way through yet - plus it has inspired an idea for a cool tattoo! :)

 

Yeah? What kind of tattoo?

 

I'm reworking a small phrase in the book into a quote and going to have it wreathed in lightning.

I have that same idea! Not "We bring the night", by any chance? :P

[Lord_Caerolion]

I am enraptured by the thought that Curze was both this figure of.. well not love, but some kind of caring, whilst also being a brutal killer who would use the most frightening measures to achieve his goals.

 

Exactly. People forget that Night Haunter seemed to care about the civilian population of Nostramo. After all, why else would he have chosen to kill the criminals? If he were just the sadistic psychopath so many people think he is, he would have caused fear by killing anyone he felt like. Instead, he sacrificed his humanity to save the population from criminals. Note his use of the word "sacrifice", not "shed" or anything else; sacrifice implies that what you give up had great worth.

[vipertaja]

I am enraptured by the thought that Curze was both this figure of.. well not love, but some kind of caring, whilst also being a brutal killer who would use the most frightening measures to achieve his goals.

 

Exactly. People forget that Night Haunter seemed to care about the civilian population of Nostramo. After all, why else would he have chosen to kill the criminals? If he were just the sadistic psychopath so many people think he is, he would have caused fear by killing anyone he felt like. Instead, he sacrificed his humanity to save the population from criminals. Note his use of the word "sacrifice", not "shed" or anything else; sacrifice implies that what you give up had great worth.

 

When fighting monsters...

In this case, Curze fought monsters by becoming the biggest one on Nostramo. After that one of the biggest in imperial employ.

 

I like the story about his death and self righteous vindication...and how the assassins camera shorts out before it for whatever reason. I also liked how lord of the night implied that he still sort of haunts the legion, even in death...which seems to be implied in soul hunter too as far as I've read? With the inherited visions? (well, haunting their minds, not an actual ghost or anything)

[Rain]

When fighting monsters...

In this case, Curze fought monsters by becoming the biggest one on Nostramo. After that one of the biggest in imperial employ.

 

I'm pretty sure that's actually taken from everyone's favorite syphilitic Nietzsche. Also, I'm not sure how much Curze "cared" about the civilian population as they lived in terror of him. Sure it was peaceful, but it was a forced peace and one devoid of freedom as everyone was too afraid of evisceration to take even a step sideways.

 

That said, I agree that the Night Lords are not just sociopaths, but let's not get too carried away with trying to paint them as misunderstood heroes. Especially as of all of the traitor legions, the NL were probably the most deviant from the outset, and would carry out planet-wide purges to weed out just a small number of supposed enemies. Hell even Night Haunter thought his legion was full of monsters, the only person that seemed not to was Sahaal, and Sahaal was a tool.

[Dominion]

Either way Konrads overall goal for his legion was to be free from both the imperium and chaos all morals aside.

[BrotherMoses]

I think Dominion is right there. It really is too bad you guys fell. Kurze and his legion just got too carried away scaring people.

 

Well, that and Kurze was schizophrenic and probably haunted by daemons constantly.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Got to love the contradiction that is the Night Lords.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Either way Konrads overall goal for his legion was to be free from both the imperium and chaos all morals aside.

Free from the imperium? if this is correct then he was doomed from the start. All enemies of the Emperor must die. as much as I like the NL's and Curze I dont see how he could just turn his back on his Battle Brothers and the Emperor like that, its heretical.

 

And I've noticed a former Captain amongst our loyalist ranks has renounced the Emperor and is now flying high a Night Lords banner. Juan! B)

convincing are the blasphemous suggestions of the ruinous powers..

[vipertaja]

When fighting monsters...

In this case, Curze fought monsters by becoming the biggest one on Nostramo. After that one of the biggest in imperial employ.

 

I'm pretty sure that's actually taken from everyone's favorite syphilitic Nietzsche. Also, I'm not sure how much Curze "cared" about the civilian population as they lived in terror of him. Sure it was peaceful, but it was a forced peace and one devoid of freedom as everyone was too afraid of evisceration to take even a step sideways.

 

That said, I agree that the Night Lords are not just sociopaths, but let's not get too carried away with trying to paint them as misunderstood heroes. Especially as of all of the traitor legions, the NL were probably the most deviant from the outset, and would carry out planet-wide purges to weed out just a small number of supposed enemies. Hell even Night Haunter thought his legion was full of monsters, the only person that seemed not to was Sahaal, and Sahaal was a tool.

 

It's quite possible it's Nietzsche...to be honest there are only a few quotes I can name as his with complete certainty...I have never read anything from the bastard.

 

The night lord ranks are no goody two shoes, they were filled with criminals from fairly early on. I think during the great crusade the only legion worse was the World Eaters, but they were kept as a blunt heavy weapon unlike the Night Lords. Night lords at least had their violent philosophy of authority and "justice", while the world eaters were just the option for "kill everything until it is dead".

[Ashe Darke]

Free from the imperium? if this is correct then he was doomed from the start. All enemies of the Emperor must die. as much as I like the NL's and Curze I dont see how he could just turn his back on his Battle Brothers and the Emperor like that, its heretical.

Battle Brothers? Just because they all were created by the Emperor it doesn't mean they all loved him or even all got on with each other. I can't think of a fair few who didn't really care for him.

 

Mortarion for one, he only joined up because of his respect for the Emperor in being able to do what he couldn't. That was about the only reason, he didn't look at him the same way Dorn or Guilliman did. Angron or Angry Ron, he was annoyed at the Emperor for taking him away from his men and not letting him say goodbye and that resentment stuck ever since. I can imagine the Night Haunter being a bit peeved after he finally got his planet being peaceful and then the Emperor turns up and takes him, the only thing stopping the crime. Perturabo was annoyed at the Emperor for just being depended on far too much and being stationed out in the middle of nowhere holding positions while other legions went off and fought. Lorgar got told off by the Emperor and felt rejection of the love he displayed. Alpharius only met the Emperor like once and was very self absorbed in his own tactics so I can't imagine his bond was too strong.

 

That was only how those Primarchs felt about the Emperor, not even how they felt about each other.

 

Sure if you say 'Emperor and Primarchs' you think awww father/brotherly love. But even a glimpse under the surface and you'll see it's just not true. So is it really surprising that when push came to shove they broke free?

[Dominion]

Free from the imperium? if this is correct then he was doomed from the start. All enemies of the Emperor must die. as much as I like the NL's and Curze I dont see how he could just turn his back on his Battle Brothers and the Emperor like that, its heretical.

 

Also keep in mind Konrads visions of the future, he knew what was coming and it haunted him throughout his life, he knew what the worst outcome was goings to be.

[Legatus]

It is kind of ironic that the visions of brothers fighting against brothers and the Emperor censuring him were what drove him over the edge, which then made him do all those terrible things the Emperor then censured him for. It was a vicious circle, a self fulfilling prophecy. The events he foresaw only became true because he became insane for foreseeing those terrible events. The visions made themselves reality.

[vipertaja]

It is kind of ironic that the visions of brothers fighting against brothers and the Emperor censuring him were what drove him over the edge, which then made him do all those terrible things the Emperor then censured him for. It was a vicious circle, a self fulfilling prophecy. The events he foresaw only became true because he became insane for foreseeing those terrible events. The visions made themselves reality.

 

There are a lot of prophecies in the horus heresy that turn out to be self fulfilling I've noticed.

I imagine the chaos gods may have a hand in why that is.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

yep he did fulfill his own prophecy, so to speak.

 

its a ashame really, he could have been one of the greatest loyalists

IMO

 

he had all the qualitys and traits. vengeance, zeal, righteousness!

[vipertaja]

yep he did fulfill his own prophecy, so to speak.

 

its a ashame really, he could have been one of the greatest loyalists

IMO

 

he had all the qualitys and traits. vengeance, zeal, righteousness!

 

I think any of the primarchs could have fallen or stayed loyal, the cracks are there. They are all flawed and they all have grudges and likely had issues not spoken of. I do believe the chaos gods sort of tested the ice on all of them a little but had to pick who to put the pressure on in the long run and what seemed most convenient. Hit and miss of course...they blew it

with Ferrus Manus, certainly.