Prophecy

[40kProphet]

This being my first post I'm a little unsure as to where it should be located. I figured that it relates to the emperor and the heresy this seems like the right place.

 

I have read many of the posts here on the Emperor and his primarches and why the 40k universe is the way it is. I have had a theory in the back of my mind for a very long time and nowhere to write it down. It is only my interpretation and I realize that its a stretch of the imagination. Also I apologize in advance for my bad grammar. Paragraph structure always gave me problems.

 

So here it is.

 

The divine Plan.

 

The Emperor in my mind is the counter point to Chaos and everything evil in the universe. He is the divine manifestation of everything righteous in mankind and the personification of humanities will. He is as you all know the most potent phsyker to ever exist and as such would be privileged with information on the evils lurking in the depths on the galaxies most forbidden corners. This leaves me to believe that he was well aware of the future difficulties mankind would find itself in.

 

As the 40k universe becomes broader and more complete we find ourselves reading about every evil and nightmare that has ever plagued our dreams besetting mankind all all fonts. The Ork empires assail the Empire from within as well as from the uncharted systems. The awakening horror of the C'tan and the necrons promise the return of the most powerful evil to ever stalk the galaxy. THe massive Hive fleets strip entire systems of life and they could be just the vanguard of an unimaginably vast foe. The Eldar hold themselves above mankinds petty concerns and see us as expendable when faced with the survival of thier own craftworlds. If these aren't enough, the chaos gods scheme and plot for misery and suffering on a scale that makes the Horus Heresy look insignificant. They are everything that is evil, in fact it could be argued that they are the very definition of evil as each god personifies one of humanities weaknesses and seeks to bring these traits out in mankind. With so much to fight against would it not make sense for the Emperor to provide mankind with the means to fight against it, even in his absence. By that I mean could he not allow a period of prolonged tribulation to steel the empire and allow his race to become as strong as possible in preparation for his return.

 

What I'm getting at is that the god Emperor of mankind orchestrated the entire Heresy, the 10,000 years of suffering and war that would follow and even the scattering of the Primarches that started it all. He foresaw the weaknesses in his sons. He scattered them, or allowed the chaos gods to do so. He knew he would end up inturned in the golden throne and all of it fit into his great plan to see mankind not just exist, but to thrive in a golden age the likes of which we can only imagine. The evidence I have to support this is minor granted but I find it hard to believe that a beieng of his unimaginable might could not see these things coming.

 

This may get some raised eyebrows but I personalty believe that The emperor could have killed Horus with a glace, or a nod depending on his mood. Yet he had a father son chat the entire time the duel took place. To me it just doesn't make sense that he would walk through his people for all those millenia before the great crusade and not be building up to something. Not only that but to wait patiently as the dark age of technology gave way to the age of strife and then the closing off of Terra from the rest of the Galaxy (I believe he was responsible for this as well) and not take control of mankind sooner perplexes me. It just seems to me like he never unleashed the full might he had at his disposal. I believe this to be a calculated move on his part. He did not believe mankind or the galaxy in which we live was ready for what he had in mind.

 

What I believe he had in mind was to give mankind an age in winch it would have to fight off every conceivable horror. To fight them on thier own worlds as well as defending from their attacks on ours. To Build a religion around preventing the taint of Chaos from infecting the souls of his people. To breed heroes so powerful that they seem as titans amongst men. To build organisations of agents, assassins, military commissars, warrior priests, technological savants, grey armored deamon slayers, and above all the angels of death themselves. Some believe that the Marines have weakened since the Heresy but I believe that 10,000 years of combat experience, artifacts, and additions to the codex have made them ten times as lethal. Even the lowly imperial guard has become a force to be reckoned with. The jungle fighters of catachan were nothing but colonists struggling agianst the very planet itself during the heresy. Ten thousand years bred them into the ultimate men at arms. The same could be said for the Cadians, the Valhallans, the Death Corps of Krieg. They all have become the armies they are because of countless campaigns. The bottom line is that to be beset by all these enemies and to endure makes mankind an Empire of military power unequaled. This was his purpose, his will, his divine plan. For in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war... Until the day comes when the empire begins to crumble, when we can no longer stem the tide of evil that seeks our anhilation and on that day the great cables and machines that power the golden throne will surge with energy, the Light of the heavens will pour from every edifice in the Imperial Palace, and the Chaos gods themselves will tremble with fear. For on that day the Emperor will awaken and his wrath for the enemies of mankind will be terrible to behold.

 

So what I'm saying (if your stuck with me this far) is that everything written into the fluff of the 40k universe is but a prelude to the real war. A war in which the Emperor will lead his armies to ultimate victory. It is his purpose, it is his will, it is his divine plan.

 

I will follow this post with evidance sopporting my theory as well as more theories on the the other mysteries of the 40k universe. its great to finaly have a place to write all this down. Looking forward to being a part of the Bolter and chainsword comunity.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i personally hope your right.

40k has pushed the idea the universe is a terrible, terrible place to exist and around every corner is a line of foes waiting to kill you in the most vile of ways. that we are all screwed, and are slowly crumbling from the constant wear and tear of assailants. and not only is that depressin, but boring as well. if i wanted to see constand misery i pay more attention to the real news.

 

basically, somewhere in the "grimdark" of 40k there has to be a light of hope, and i would like to see this pusheda bit myself.

(thats why i play Space Wolves...in my opinion one of the very few *salamanders as well* GOOD guys in this otherwise miserable galaxy created)

 

WLK

[Cyrl]

For in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war... Until the day comes when the empire begins to crumble, when we can no longer stem the tide of evil that seeks our anhilation and on that day the great cables and machines that power the golden throne will surge with energy, the Light of the heavens will pour from every edifice in the Imperial Palace, and the Chaos gods themselves will tremble with fear. For on that day the Emperor will awaken and his wrath for the enemies of mankind will be terrible to behold.

 

So what I'm saying (if your stuck with me this far) is that everything written into the fluff of the 40k universe is but a prelude to the real war. A war in which the Emperor will lead his armies to ultimate victory. It is his purpose, it is his will, it is his divine plan.

 

Is it just me or could the tone of those two paragraphs be any more different? Made me laugh as I read it the first time, good writing in the "plan" section btw - inspiring stuff.

 

If I'm trying to be critical I'd probably throw the following stones at your glass house:

 

We've already been far, far stronger than we currently are - the Dark Age Of Technology was an era in which every colonist had access to the plans and machinery that the Ad Mech religiously preserve. Sure, you couldn't build a Titan just anywhere but you had the STC's for the equipment needed to build up the industrial capacity to the necessary volume and sophistication.

 

Are Humanity as a race really being honed to a fine edge or are our martial limbs just being bloodied in eternal war as the fleshy body resides peacefully in it's suspension tank? The vast majority of humanity has no idea of the dangers besetting them. Look at 90% of the fluff and the locals have no idea what's happening until the bolters fire, the hive down the road is nuked, the mycetic spores start raining or the mass sacrifices begin. The Imperium holds a tight leash on information in one hand and with the other writes the propaganda to be dispersed to the populace - it's an Orwellian society whether the happy Agri-world farmers know it or not. It's awfully easy to knock on the walls of that suspension tank and when the world outside is exposed the citizens have a tendency to save thier own ass (read: sacrifice thier neighbours and dance on the graves) or go catatonic (see: GG novel, Necropolis and the flood of out-habbers coming in-hive, blocking arterial routes etc).

 

I'd really like for this to be the case, I'd settle for any kind of plot progression at this point, but I just don't see it quite meshing with the fluff. It does work however if you add a caveat: this was his plan and all was well until without his guidance (self imposed "exile" to the Golden Throne) things went amiss. He expected Humanity to fight tooth and claw for survival but instead we have a largely ignorant society and a case of technological dementia.

 

Cyrl.

[40kProphet]

If I'm trying to be critical I'd probably throw the following stones at your glass house:

 

We've already been far, far stronger than we currently are - the Dark Age Of Technology was an era in which every colonist had access to the plans and machinery that the Ad Mech religiously preserve. Sure, you couldn't build a Titan just anywhere but you had the STC's for the equipment needed to build up the industrial capacity to the necessary volume and sophistication.

 

Are Humanity as a race really being honed to a fine edge or are our martial limbs just being bloodied in eternal war as the fleshy body resides peacefully in it's suspension tank? The vast majority of humanity has no idea of the dangers besetting them. Look at 90% of the fluff and the locals have no idea what's happening until the bolters fire, the hive down the road is nuked, the mycetic spores start raining or the mass sacrifices begin. The Imperium holds a tight leash on information in one hand and with the other writes the propaganda to be dispersed to the populace - it's an Orwellian society whether the happy Agri-world farmers know it or not. It's awfully easy to knock on the walls of that suspension tank and when the world outside is exposed the citizens have a tendency to save thier own ass (read: sacrifice thier neighbours and dance on the graves) or go catatonic (see: GG novel, Necropolis and the flood of out-habbers coming in-hive, blocking arterial routes etc).

 

I'd really like for this to be the case, I'd settle for any kind of plot progression at this point, but I just don't see it quite meshing with the fluff. It does work however if you add a caveat: this was his plan and all was well until without his guidance (self imposed "exile" to the Golden Throne) things went amiss. He expected Humanity to fight tooth and claw for survival but instead we have a largely ignorant society and a case of technological dementia.

 

Cyrl.

 

 

I believe that its not the stick itself that wins a fight but the guy swinging it. Technology can make people weak and dependent. The Emperor was around at the time of the dark age of technology yet apron meeting the Tech priests of mars he choose not to give them the STC information. I'm just guessing here but I think the Emperor would of been smart enough to squirrel away mankinds greatest technological achievements. It makes sense to deny that information and allow mankind to become strong via strength of will, spirit, determination, and experience. Technology is the easy part. All it would take to tip the balance in mankinds favor would be a figure to rally the entire empire behind and a working STC database.

 

As for the censorship of information and the ignorance of the vast majority of mankind. That makes sense as well. Given that the empire is composed of a million worlds. To have panic and fear disrupt all of them on at least some level would be unacceptable. The blissfully unaware that you speak of, and the ones trying to save their own skin will eventually have thier planet taken as well as their lives. I like to think of it as survival of the fittest but applied to entire planets instead of individuals. Take Cadia for instance. It is one of the few planets that are well aware of how precarious there situation is. But through martial prowess, discipline and unity they stand as a bulwark against Chaos itself. Cadians themselves are a product of thier environment, and many centuries of traditions and experiences of a warrior culture. They survived all this time living next to the eye of terror with lasguns and combat knives not digi-lasers and other exotic tech. Now take those same cadians and give them all advanced weapons and armor. They'll still be bad-arse but now there swinging bigger sticks.

 

I agree with you one hundred percent about needing some plot progression. A campaign here or there doesn't cut it anymore after fifteen years of reading the fluff. I want to see the Khan come marching out of the warp or Guilliman wake from his stasis chamber, Have Russ fight his way by tooth and claw from the realm of death to be there for the wolftime or see Magnus realize just how far hes fallen and turn his powers on his fellow deamon princes. Anything like that would really make me inspired like I used to when I read about this stuff.

 

Oh and please keep those stones flying at my glass house. Criticism and debate are always a good thing when trying to make sense of something thats just a theory. Especialy when its based in a fictional world.

[Piousservant]

Well, the way I see it there are two broad potential scenarios which are both pretty "grimdark".

 

The first is as you describe, that the Heresy was part of the Emperors vision and he planned all along to go into the Golden Throne. Some future threat was somehow so great that this was the only option to ensure the survival of humanity - the Leto II ideal (God-Emperor of Dune). This paints the Emperor as a almost incomprehensibly cold and callous bar steward, which is appealing as an approach. I personally am not so keen because, firstly I find it hard to imagine how the Imperium post-Heresy would be in a better position to survive then the Imperium pre-Heresy. The Primarchs have been lost, the Legions broken and the Imperial Truth abandoned for dogma and superstition.

 

Secondly, it proposes that every single thing that has gone to pass has happened exactly as the Emperor planned. That I just find difficult to believe. The Emperor is supremely powerful, the most powerful "human" psyker ever. But there are other oracles out there. First among them Tzeentch and the Dark Gods. Personally I dislike the idea that the Emperor is so powerful that he isn't just on par with the Dark Gods but outstrips them so they cannot hinder his plans even slightly. To me that I just find that robs the 40kverse of some of its impact - whatever happens is ok because it is part of the Emperors plan.

 

 

The second broad option is that the Emperors plan did not fully come to fruition and is probably the "conventional" line. The Dark Gods interferred in his plans and were able to disrupt them, leading to the Heresy. In the 40kverse the Emperor may be near omniscent but so are others. Manipulating events is one thing but the moment he steps into the light himself he increases the risk that others will interfere with his plans. If you think of the number of interactions going on and then the number of oracles who could manipulate them it's a pretty complex 10-dimensional minefield. The Emperor does pretty well to achieve what he does, considering.

 

But he is outwitted by the Dark Gods because he fails to comprehend the all too human frailties of his Primarch children. It only takes the smallest of changes, which escape the Emperors notice, to set events on a collision course... As a tiny pebble may start an avalanche the Dark Gods sow the seeds of destruction amongst the Primarchs. They succeed in corrupting half of the Emperors sons and the legions to their side and unleash the Heresy upon the Imperium. The Heresy goes to the very brink as Horus fights the Emperor for the future of Mankind. Horus is filled with the power of the Dark Gods, making him nearly the match of the Emperor and though in the end Horus is defeated, the Emperor is left crippled and his plans for the future of Humanity in tatters. Extinction is narrowly avoided. The light has not gone out but it flickers dangerously in the dark...

 

I just find more drama (if you like) in the second and I find it far darker and more pessemistic for the future. The Emperor fails in achieving his "Golden Path" but everts total disaster and in doing so has to resort to ensuring little more than the survival of Humanity. Gone are the ideals of the Great Crusade and the Imperial Truth. Gone is the glorious future for humanity amongst the stars. Instead the Imperium just fights for a little more time against the growing darkness...

[shatter]

My .02 credits

 

Stasis in comparative power between mankind and chaos is/was the best that could be hoped for for humanity. As mankind wanes, so does chaos... as long as mankind is the leading 'warp-food' generating race and chaos stays safe as houses in the warp.

 

If mankind is unchecked in this reality, the massive buildup of 'warp-food' for chaos would be ultimately catastrophic for man.

 

The development of the golden throne idea forced chaos's destructive precogs to face the same fate as every xeno mankind encountered in our reality in theirs. Eek! It had to be stopped else chaos was gonna be whipped on two fronts.

Opposition to the golden throne was inevitable. It was potentially the death warrant of every extant warp entity that didn't represent mankind.

 

So, two visions of the future are in effect. One; The Emperor's, two; chaos. If knowing the future is an absolute, the only way both can be right is if one (or both) make the choice of stasis.

 

BUT... even stasis is impossible. Ask any physicist. The fight goes on still on multiple planes of reality. The Emperor must still have His will to continue His vision. (Or mankind is DOOMED!)

 

In my opinion, according to little tails scattered through most of the BL 40k stuff, He is still an active agent, guiding humanity's survival and evolution both here and the warp. Maybe even possessing warp entities as avatars of mankind, sculpting them into icons of purity of His will and making war there, like demons possessing man in our reality. ~ this is a novel I'd like to see a BL author attempt. (ha!)

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Of course, it could all be fictitious and even GW have no idea... I know which one I think is true.. :D

[Caleth]

I've actually been thinking about things like this since the first heresy books came out. When originally there were rumors of just nine books. In False Gods and Glaxy in Flames they talk about an old legend that was wrapped up with several of the sites that were at Istavaan. The temples where they fought the war siren, the drop site massacre temple and I believe there are a few more references to this legend through out the books.

 

I'm going to paraphrase since it's been quite a while: A great warrior god has children and several of these children turn on him corrupted by monsters. They wage a great war that carries on for eons. In the end the warrior god destroys the monsters and casts the traitorous children adrift in time unwilling to kill them. They then settle back to the beginning of the universe and become the monsters that corrupted them originally.

 

I'm sure that I've miss represented several sections of the story but that is more or less how I remember it. I mention it because I think it was a less than/or very subtle clue to how GW plans this all to go. I think that the Heresy had to happen to create the Deamon Princes Mortarion, Angron, and Magnus as they will eventually become the gods that they worship after the emperor flings them to the beginning of time after he wins the final battle. This is also why Slanessh has to be birthed from the Eldar, as Fulgrim never gave into being a Deamon Prince he was tricked and manipulated into being possessed.

 

Why bring all this up when talking about the emperors divine plan, because I think in the end even for as powerful as entities like the Emp and the Big four are they still have to respect and abide by general course of events. The Emp might well have been able to see almost all of the pre- and post- heresy events and planned as best he could to make them not happen. But they had to happen or well the foundations of 3 of the four ruinous powers don't get laid and then we have a massive temporal paradox. What I'm getting at is it all came out the way it did for the most part because it had to be that way. Now free will might have effected some of the details and to what extent I don't know since I don't know GW's opinion on the matter.

 

Now how does all this translate into the real world? Well initially the world was created from a mish-mosh of different bits of every story under the sun. Christianity, the dark ages, history in general, various cultures across the world. So originally, I don't think they had a well conceived and executed plan about where it's all going. I think with their more recent efforts to create the Horus Heresy series, and some of the changes made to the fluff in the BRB and codexes, they have solidified where the story is going to go and in another edition or two the story will start to move forward again. Things like the actual failure of the golden throne Abaddon's push out or the EOT, perhaps the activation of the Void Dragon, the rise of the eldar death god that can slay Slanesh. I'm not a writer but I think there are some great hints about the direction of the story hidden within all the books. Blood games shows that someone can penetrate into the sanctum of the emperor, the dark angels books are laying out mysterious conenctions between the watchers in the dark and Zahariel(who imo will be the Cypher we refer to in 40k.) In addition there is the Cabal from Legion, and final events of the Mechanium to be considered.

 

I will admit that much of this might have changed after the wild success of the Horus Heresy but I can see some solid ground work being laid for things to happen off of later.

[calgar101]

It is said and believed by many that the Emperor is/was a man. Chaos were working together to blind him and did so and he was fallible, very fallible just like any man would be.

[shatter]

It is said and believed by many that the Emperor is/was a man. Chaos were working together to blind him and did so and he was fallible, very fallible just like any man would be.

 

Almost 40,000 years and He was fallible, like any man?

 

Wish I was that fallible! <_<

 

Regardless, my friends with the pokers and pliers want some names.

[-Brother Sargent Tiberius-]

I felt like writing a rant, sorry if it is off topic at all(or wrong).

 

The chaos gods are the manifestations of the imperfections of man. I think the Emperor is the part of humanity that is good and strong. I dont think the Emperor had such a large plan like you said, even though it could be possible. Even if the Emperor is a god, he is still partly human(in body at least) and can make mistakes.

 

The primarchs being scattered, i believe to be the result of a broken deal between the Emperor and chaos. The Emperor stole or "borrowed" the power from the warp, chaos got mad so they scattered them. As for the heresy, I think it caught the Emperor offguard. He believed the primarchs to be perfect and uncorruptable and didnt prepare for what happened. He trusted his sons. The Emperor himself said he wasnt a god, and it is possible for him to make mistakes. I do think at the end the Emperor will return with his loyalist(and possibly redeemed traitors?) primarchs, and I think he is going to be disgusted by what he sees the Imperium has become and will make changes.

 

About what you said about the Emperor being able to blink and kill Horus, Horus is one of the strongest of the Emperors sons. Take a super warp gifted primarch, and add on some chaos gifted powers. I think the Emperor also had a hard time killing his son and mightve tried talking to him or tried to save him. Notice that as soon as the Emperor was struck down, he completely smited Horus from existance. He saw that Horus was beyond saving and used his godly power to destroy him.(why else didnt he do that in the first place? He was attached to his son.)

 

The Emperor seems to be fighting the chaos gods in the warp after he went on the golden throne. For all I know your right and the whole heresy was to cut down on the population because more people equals more psykers which equals more chaos/daemons. Maybe being on the Golden throne was his plan so he could focus on fighting the chaos gods and maybe there is more reasons.

 

There is alot of hope in your words.

 

But remember, hope is the seed of heresy.

 

-In the Emperor's name.

[Ashe Darke]

Hasn't it been hinted in the HH books that they clouded the Emperors farseeing capabilities? I can imagine them being capable of this especially considering how devious they are.

 

I think the Emperor had a plan, just not a very good one. Whether this is intentional or the story not being that great I don't know. I imagine they needed him to have a plan for the sake of the story and apparently the Web Way would do.