Discussion on effectiveness of psychic powers

[waaanial00]

Hi all,

 

So after seeing This list and thread I got to thinking about how much value anti psyker tech is. I thought that I would start a discussion about the more dangerous psychic powers that are out there. I am not 100% knowledgable on the different psychic powers and was hoping that some people would jump in with their take on what are the dangerous ones out there.

 

Hopefully with a bit of discussion we will be able to coax out just what the value of anti psychic tactics are for tournaments and friendly play. It is easier to deal with friendly play if you know your opponents tastes but in the tournament you probably will be worried about psychic powers in general but should we really be? Maybe having a look at the effectiveness of the Psychic powers available in the game will give us a clearer picture?

 

Splitting the discussion into the different codexes is probably the best way so I will start with the Codex Marines powers and how concerned I am about them from a game impact point of view:

 

Codex Marines

 

Ones to be really worried about

 

-- Avenger

This power is a great one and is highly dangerous to most infantry. AP3 and S5 means that if a libby moves close to a unit of yours you probably want to have a chance at "dispelling" it. It can really wreck a unit when combined with a bodyguard shooting and charging.

 

-- Vortex of Doom

This power is also a big death causing one. It is less used because its potential to cause death means that if you drift it then you could be sucking warp yourself. Still if a list or Meta game included this then I would either be hugging cover when close or I would want a Psychic hood. This has potential to damage vehicles as well so mech up isnt exactly the answer to this. Though of course its relatively rare so this might belong in the next section.

 

Ones to be slightly worried about

 

-- Null zone

This one is a big worry if you are counting on invulnerable saves to carry you. This generally means demons but could also stretch to other units such as the Capains Iron Halo. I find that this doesnt affect most of the units I tend to run in my Codex lists, when I do run Storm Shields I find they are only on a small number of units and a 3+ is not that difficult to pass. Other things like terminators standard 5+ I am not expecting to pass so the reroll just confirms my pessimism.

 

However if you are concerned or are building your list around a lot of things with Invulnerable saves then having a Librarian near to you will probably be a good thing.

 

-- Might of the Ancients

This one is a little scary, espeically when combined with The Quickening on an Epistolary. However I see this very rarely and the combination used even less so. The problem with this power is that the librarian just doesnt have access to enough attacks to make it worth while. Still it is a little concerning if you are planning on tarpitting HQ units with dreadnoughts or are worried about your vehicles surviving. I wouldnt be too concerned about trying to "dispell" this power as most of the time the amount of attacks involved arent going to be enough to worry.

 

-- The Quickening

Like above I am not too concerned about this. Fleet is not that brilliant, though of course on a Jump pack epistolary with might it could provide some level of danger but it would be minimal. This is not a power I am really concerned about and have only included it here because of its potential with Might. Most of the time I wouldnt be concerned enough to run a librarian to counter this power.

 

-- Gate of infinity

This one is a weird one, I suspect that most would place a higher value on this power but for me several things hold it back.

 

1. Its only really useful for shooting units as it is deepstriking and therefore you cant assault

2. It is not 100% clear that this can be used to get out of combat and therefore one of its major tactical uses for me is dependant on a argument and dice off

3. Dont agree with using locator beacons to avoid the on doubles you die rule, this is personal and I wont enforce or argue against it but wont use it either

 

Given all this and the fact that its only a worry if the shooting unit is that deadly I am less concerned about it. For me its only worth taking anti psyker if you know or suspect that there are players who use this tactic lots with Sternguard. Sternguard and Gate are of pretty decent value. Though of course I find people who do this only like to gate to a locator beacon and therefore you can avoid this by avoiding or destroying drop pods.

 

-- Machine Curse

This little power I find is quite useful though only in a small set of circumstances and as such doesnt really belong in people high priority list. Generally its only as usefuly as your type of vehicles you run. If you run a small number of "Gun boat" type vehicles then you might want to think about countering them. Also if you rely on high armour values to avoid damage then this might be a concern for you.

 

Generally I have found its only good if you put the librarian with a unit that also has anti vehicle abililties. The power fist and melta combat squad springs to mind. Try to imobililse the vehicle before charging it, making it much easier to kill with grenades.

 

Still I dont think its worth worrying about too much so if you are aware that people run it in your area be aware of its potential to cause upsets but I wouldnt go to the point of including a hood to counter it, especially if most of your vehicles are transports as generally the effects of a glancing hit on these types of vehicles are not that concerning (unless they roll high).

 

Ones I am not at all concerned about

 

-- Force Dome

As anyone who runs tactical terminators will be able to tell you, a 5+ invulnerable save is just a random luck save. No one should be able to count on units making this save. Therefore its hardly worth worrying about taking a librarian to counter it.

 

-- Smite

AP2 is good but S4 is bad. Either stay in cover when you know there is a libby with this one or just take the possibly 1 or 2 dead from it and thank the emperor that they didnt take avenger.

 

 

I think overall if you are facing mainly codex marines the powers are not really that powerful enough to warrent running a librarian just to cover psychic powers. Some of the combinations can be quite powerful in a small area of the battle however as an overall game view I wouldnt be wanting to take a librarian to counter Codex powers.

 

Orks

 

 

In general Warpeads/Weirdboys are not used all that commonly. As such I wouldnt really take a librarian for anti psyker unless the enemy field Old Zogwart. He is the only character which makes me think the Librarian is a good investment (from an anti psyker point of view, I think it is a good investment from an aggressive point of view though). This is only to counter his Squig ability, which will threaten your Independant Characters.

 

 

If they havent got Old Zogwart but you know a player is running dual Warpeads then it might be worth it because some of the powers the Orks can muster are quite nasty. However having played this unit quite a bit I can tell you that chances are the Ork player will not get the powers he needs when he wants them, also if you are worried about it then just engage the unit in combat as the main nasty powers get converted to him having a power weapon in combat (also he doesnt have better than a 6+ armour save so dies very easily).

 

 

Well thats about all the in depth knowledge I have about psychic powers as I dont know too many specifics outside of these two codexes. Hopefully people will be able to contribute to this thread and bulk out this discussion, which I think is quite interesting. I find a lot of people (myself included) field Librarians as anti psyker but I suspect they dont "Dispell" many powers often. I can only remember "dispelling" a couple of Eldar powers, some winds of Chaos, a little warp time and a nasty lance from a Zoanthrope but thats about it. Still maybe that just shows that in my area Psychic powers arent used that much and I shouldnt worry about it that much, however I run the libby because I find its the best HQ choice available.

 

Wan

[ShinyRhino]

Honestly, the only powers that I really "worry" about are Lash of Submission, and Doom. The rest are so rare in my local meta that it's not worth planning to counter them. Our Ork players are Trukk fans, and would never run a Warp'ead. MEQ players gravitate toward Kantor and Vulkan. Nids are playing with Mawlocs and Trygons right now.

I think the Wolves players are playing Loganwing right now. Not sure, as I've not drawn any games against them in local tourneys yet.

 

My last couple tourneys against Eldar have convinced me to try out a Librarian in a couple of my upcoming events. Soooo sick of Fortune, Guide, and Doom.

[Giga]

I like to run a barebones librarian with nullzone and avenger in my tournament all-comers lists.

 

I have to say the libby himself is extremely useful. The avenger is good against any infantry + it also has a good chance to wound monstrous creatures. Null zone is absolutely awesome against the majority of competitive armies out there + it makes beating armies like daemons incredibly easy.

 

Psychic hood is also EXTREMELY useful, as it can be used an infinite number of times, doesn't require psychic tests, and has the same range as null zone.

 

 

 

Here's some stuff I find my librarian extremely useful against;

 

Zoanthropes - forcing them to reroll their invulnerable saves means they die real fast, and can be easily slaughtered by rapid fire. Since they rely on psychic powers to do anything, psychic hoods mean you can effectively nullify them from the start.

 

Lash - nullzone means it's much easier to insta-kill those obliterators, and the 5++ save of the daemon princes is rendered even more inefficient. Psychic hood protects you from lash. Nuff said.

 

Eldar - self-explanatory, but seer councils in particular.

 

Orks - having another flamer template is always good. Having nullzone when you're firing STR8 weps at those cybork nobz is even better.

 

Rune priests - psychic hood means you got a good chance to nullify those pesky jaws of the world wolf.

 

Most independent characters - the vast majority of them has a 4++ or worse save and don't have access to eternal warrior, meaning null zone is really useful there.

[minigun762]

Between Lashs, JotWs, Zoas, and Null Zone I think there is more than enough reasons to bring a Librarian, especially since its also helpful in an offensive way.

 

Plus the newer codicies seem to have a bgger emphasis on psychic powers, just look at the new Blood Angels rumors.

[Koremu]

My last couple tourneys against Eldar have convinced me to try out a Librarian in a couple of my upcoming events. Soooo sick of Fortune, Guide, and Doom.

Played a game a couple of days ago with a Terminator Librarian with Null Zone. Psychic Hood to nullify Fortune, then Null Zone up... and then blaze away with a Terminator Squad and the remnants of a Tactical Squad... my opponent was not happy to go from re-rolling fails to re-rolling successes. Killed all of the Warlocks with fire from the Terminator Squad, before dakkaing the remaining wounds off the Farseer and Yriel.

 

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Force Weapons yet. EW is becoming less prevalent in the course of 5th Edition.

[ShinyRhino]

Should I run up against an Eldar list in the next two weekends, my Librarian will be happy to use his Hood against the CheddarElf's (Eldrad) powers every turn.

It works against Mind War, yes?

[Koremu]

Yes. Sadly, the Psychic Hood is a bit hit and miss against other Ld10 Psykers (the caster wins on a draw). However, if you have faith in the Emperor, it will work when needed.

[minigun762]

Its still better then the psychic defense that Chaos Marines have :)

 

As a sidenote, why did the Space Wolves become the super anti-Psyker chapter all of a sudden? They even beat out BT in that regard.

[Koremu]

Same reason they have the best fire support infantry - codex creep

[Justicar Valius]

Unlimited range psychic hood on a LD 10 tough as nails Grand Master for 20 points = Bargain of the edition (3rd edition, in case you don't know when we last got updated).

 

You go to a tourney and play an Eldar player you look like this :lol: or this :P

You play a double lash list you go "don't play a cheese list, or this is what happens" and go :P

 

Hammerhand in the DH codex is a nice one with the amount AV13 walkers out there these days that deliberately try to tar pit HQs.

[angry man]

off topic i know but hey. why do people insist on whinging about silly things. especially ones that are full of :P

Same reason they have the best fire support infantry - codex creep

what are you on about - all the codex since space marines are just as powerful as each other - marines, guard, wolves, nids - they all have equally strong builds, its just a case of finding out what works with what and how they are all capable of beating each other

 

You go to a tourney and play an Eldar player you look like this laugh.gif or this tongue.gif

You play a double lash list you go "don't play a cheese list, or this is what happens" and go :P

dont complain about cheese - its a tourney - expect strong builds and spam - especially when the 2 mentioned codexs have very few strong units. IMO cheese is just another word for a list you struggle to beat

 

rant over

 

AM

[Koremu]

off topic i know but hey. why do people insist on whinging about silly things. especially ones that are full of :P

Same reason they have the best fire support infantry - codex creep

what are you on about - all the codex since space marines are just as powerful as each other - marines, guard, wolves, nids - they all have equally strong builds, its just a case of finding out what works with what and how they are all capable of beating each other

Do you mean apart from the way Wolves simultaneously have cheaper and better Troops and Devastator equivalent than C:SM?

 

I don't think there's really any debate that Devastators cost too much compared to the other PA Heavy Support options - even the traditionally CC focused PA armies now having better firepower.

[minigun762]

Same reason they have the best fire support infantry - codex creep

 

All too true however I wasn't clear in my question. I meant it more as a fluff/background issue.

 

Of course it could stem from the whole "beat up the Thousand Sons 10k years ago" but I'm not so sure.

[angry man]

off topic i know but hey. why do people insist on whinging about silly things. especially ones that are full of :P

Same reason they have the best fire support infantry - codex creep

what are you on about - all the codex since space marines are just as powerful as each other - marines, guard, wolves, nids - they all have equally strong builds, its just a case of finding out what works with what and how they are all capable of beating each other

Do you mean apart from the way Wolves simultaneously have cheaper and better Troops and Devastator equivalent than C:SM?

 

I don't think there's really any debate that Devastators cost too much compared to the other PA Heavy Support options - even the traditionally CC focused PA armies now having better firepower.

i take it you forgot that wolves tact sqd equivalent cant take heavies, do they have combat tactics (im guessing not, but cant be sure). LSS? no. Null zone? no. proper assault squads? proper bike squads? no. ironclad? no!! the codexs are different - some units are better than others, some not so much and some are missing completely. codex creep my foot

 

AM

 

EDIT:: to prevent this from diverting from the OPs topic i started a new thread linky

[Giga]

@ angry man

 

Koremu is right. SW are a typical codex creep example.

 

 

They get troops (gray hunters) who do everything tactical squads do + a lot more, while costing less points. They can't take heavy weapons per se, but the thing is with counter attack, ccw, dual special weapons, mark of the wulfen, etc. they don't really need heavy weapons since you don't want to waste their potential by keeping them back and shooting, anyway. Not to mention they can actually take a wolf guard with cyclone missile launcher, for those nifty two krak missile shots per turn. Their librarians get an improved version of psychic hood (which works on 4+ (or 3+ with njal), and isn't affected by leadership). Their long fangs are way better then dev squads. They don't need proper assault squads when their base troops (gray hunters) are better in close combat then vanilla assault squads, while at the same time being way better in shooting, being troops, and costing less.

 

I'm not saying SW are overpowered (they're not) but they are an example of armies getting more powerful over time to make them more interesting to potential buyers AND to balance them against the ever-strengthening metagame.

[Koremu]

I agree with everything you said Giga (anyone with a brain can see the Codex creep there) but it's probably better to keep it in that other thread.

 

@minigun: I don't think there is a fluff justification. Certainly not one I can think of. But then, there's no fluff justification for how weak a 10000 year old 1kSons sorc is either.

[gdeathlegion]

This thread is slowly being killed...

 

I hate fighting Eldar, my buddy always brings a Seer council with 3 Flamey dudes, Embolden, and Enhance. The army includes two Farseers, with Doom and Fortune each, one is attached to the seer council who all ride around with singing spears whilst mounted on jetbikes, and the other inhabits a Wave-Serpent with a dozen banshees. It's an annoying list, everything else in his army can be taken out piecemeal, but those two squads are powerful and quite annoying to eliminate.

 

And they generally survive long enough to zoom around and either win or tie the game for him.

 

I always bring a libby with Null Zone and either Might of the Ancients or Gate of Infinity. Those are the only powers I see as being worth it, maybe Quickening or Avenger too, but I rarely use the two of those.

[Tangamarine]

So after seeing This list and thread

 

My list! :o

 

This thread has pretty much confirmed that I need a librarian just stuck on the pyshic powers to give him

Thinking of quickening but discussing whether it can be used in opponents assault phase here

 

But otherwise thinking of giving him null zone or avenger

[Meatman]

What about chaos powers? Are there any real threatening powers to be aware of?

[Chengar Qordath]

What about chaos powers? Are there any real threatening powers to be aware of?

Warptime can be downright brutal since it allows re-rolls to hit and wound; Demon Princes are nasty enough in close combat without re-rolls.

 

Gift of Chaos doesn't have the best odds of success and a very short range, but it can remove any model that fails it's toughness test, even very expensive Special Characters with Eternal Warrior.

 

Wind of Chaos can be unpleasant since it's a template weapon that allows no armor saves, and it is guaranteed to wound 50% of the time.

 

Doombolt is a weaker version of Smite with better range; not great, but it has the AP to kill MEQs so it can be useful.

 

Lash of Submission has a nasty reputation, but the metagame shift towards mechanization has weakened it considerably since it doesn't work on vehicles.

 

Nurgle's Rot is very nasty in the middle of low toughness low armor hordes, but doesn't do too well against MEQs.

 

Bolt of Change is decent, but not incredible.

[Meatman]

Gift of Chaos doesn't have the best odds of success and a very short range, but it can remove any model that fails it's toughness test, even very expensive Special Characters with Eternal Warrior.

 

Forgive me, but does it replace the model with a spawn? I've seen it happen before im my last apocalypse match. Poor shrike :)

 

 

But what is a toughness test? My opponent may have left that little bit out :S

[bystrom]

toughness test can be found in the BBB pg. 8, under Characteristics Tests.

[waaanial00]

Thanks to all the responses, I think Chenar Quodrath gets what I was initially asking for, a calm analysis of just what powers are useful and used per codex. Though of course the list provided by Giga is a fairly decent whistle stop tour of what might be used in a tournament.

 

As this thread seems to have been killed by a Codex creep discussion, is this sort of thing helpful or should I just leave it? I was hoping for a more generic look at the powers and for a conclusion on whether it was worth it however people seem to be latching onto the more powerful potential ones and suggest taking librarians just in case. This was kind of where I suspected the conversation to go towards but without the background it still seems like an assumption.

 

Personally I dont really think its worth it, most of the psychic powers can be handled through other means. If you are that concerned and have 100 points spare anyway then I suppose it is a worthy addition but I will probably no go out of my way to put a psyker into a list, the impact of psychic powers isnt large enough to really worry about in the large scale.

 

- Lash is only 1 unit, per turn.

- Null zone is only Invulnerable saves (if you dont have them anyway it matters not)

- Jaws is only a line and can only affect so many units before you kill the Rune Priest, plus its an initiative test so marines are only 5+ failing anyway.

- Zoanthrope lances are not going to affect me that badly as I dont take Landraiders and my firebase is wide enough to cope with losing a vehicle before the eventual S8 weapon kills the zoan or I charge it.

- Psyker battle squads, again only 1 unit per turn and being a marine I almost always auto rally

 

Only one I really worry about is Eldar because of the multiple buffs and curses. Though they are rare in my local neck of the woods. The one time I have taken a Psyker against Eldar he didnt really do much as LD10 vs LD10 is just a luck roll off and you cant really cast any powers yourself with runes of warding.

 

Stopping the BS/WS 1 power of Nids seems like a good idea but then again I would probably kill that from afar anyway.

 

Wan

[Giga]

- Null zone is only Invulnerable saves (if you dont have them anyway it matters not)

Which is why you can take two psychic powers, and why nullzone+avenger combo is the best. It gives you something to use in the vast majority of situations, as armies without many invulnerable saves usually get owned by flamer templates.

 

Nullzone absolutely wrecks daemon armies. Combine it with AP3/2/1 weaponry (which us marines certainly don't lack) and it becomes extremely potent against things like greater daemons, summoned daemon units, daemon princes, sisters of battle (they can turn their save into invulnerable save with an act of faith), zoanthropes, terminators, cybork nobz, eldar, independent characters, etc.

 

Not to mention the librarian himself can often cause some nice melee damage, especially if you're careful to move him away from the powerfist sergeant while moving one of your models into base-to-base with the said sergeant. This way the powerfist can't target the libby, making the libby a nice close-combat addition.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, it all depends how the libby might work within the context of your army. If you're running a mass-firepower gunline-like force without any specific hammer unit to define it, then probably the libby wouldn't be so useful. Then again, if you're like me, and you love your hammer units, then the libby is almost mandatory in an all-comers list.

[gettothegone]

Recipe for a Melee Lib

 

Take 1 Kor'Sarro.

Add 4 Vets, and 1 Apothacary for taste.

Storm shields for spice, and claws for aftertaste.

Serve with an upgraded librarian also on a bike, Might / Null zone

 

 

4 I5 S7 attacks on a charge.... yes, yes you do have that... also extra points for assaulting Dreads with a Librarian.