DIY modelling Q

[Race Bannon]

So, I'm looking at my bitz trying to make more toy soldiers and it suddenly hit me:

 

All Chapters after the original 20 exist after the Heresy ... so wouldn't it make sense that their supply of PRE-Heresy armor would be virtually non-existent? For example, the "Maximus" helmet seen on the BT sprue or from FW and the Red Scorpions.

 

I'm basing this discussion on the idea that Chapters are "trained" by another Chapter. Assuming that Forge World or Chapter armories build the PA for the new Chapter, then wouldn't they be building the more current or popular style at the time of their creation?

 

Let's assume that the "Heresy" style armor was replaced by the following "Corvus" pattern within a few centuries after the Heresy. Then it follows that a few Heresy suits (and older) WOULD exist within the Legion-turned-Chapter units, but NOT in the newer Chapters. Why? Because the newer Chapters (say, 4th Founding forward) would only get access to "Corvus" pattern or newer because Forge World would equipped to build the current style of the time.

 

Correct?

[Octavulg]

Not necessarily.

 

Firstly, the whole "Chapter training cadre" idea would mean that new Chapters might well get some of an old Chapter's equipment.

 

Secondly, Chapters seem to be capable of making their own power armor, and thus might be able to make earlier marks if they so choose.

 

Thirdly, there may be massive excess heaps of power armor lying around for some reason. Legions were big, after all, and supply dumps from the Heresy likely still exist.

 

Finally, it may have taken some time to distribute the new plans, and considering the vagaries of the Warp it could be very possible that one Forge World or another still produces earlier marks of armor.

 

Will newer Chapters have less? Definitely. None? Not necessarily.

[Apothete]

I'm not entirely sure that this is the place for this discussion, but it gives me a chance to be pedantinc on one of my favorite inconsistencies in the fluff so I'll get right to that...

 

Within the Imperium, I'm sure that most of us would agree that there's a bizarre love-hate relationship with technological progress. This is partly due to the fact that ritualized dogma has replaced scientific inquiry, partly because the only people given any leeway to even attempt improvements are typically going to be a part of the tech priesthood, and probably also heavily influenced by the hidebound nature of the society. We're talking about a people who are spread across uncountable worlds but united, at least in theory, by faith in a man who didn't even want them to believe in gods in the first place. Season that with the general distrust of new things and the kinds of punishments that can come down for the slightest deviation from the norm and, well, what are the chances that you're going to see improvements on a widespread scale?

 

It took over six thousand years for the Razorback to make its appearance and some three to four thousand years further to reach its current level of acceptance within the Astartes, despite the intrinsic value of an armored, armed infantry fighting vehicle. This is a doctine that modern military thinkers would gladly tell you has value, yet it took the Imperium more time than western society has even existed to come to the same conclusion. The Land Raider Crusader is a similar case, though it apparently took less time to gain acceptance amongst other Chapters due to the influence of Matt Ward's posterboys.

 

Where am I going with this?

 

Even a brief look through the Librarium article on power armor shows that the earlier suits are actually inferior to the ones that come later. I doubt that anyone would say that Thunder armor could hold a candle to Imperator or Errant suits, whether on the grounds of increased survivability, the availability of support functions, or ouotright protection provided by the design of the hardware itself. Yet, as the entry for Errant armor notes, many Chapters are distrustful of the newer design because it hasn't truly been proven in battle.

 

This is where I think the fluff gets downright stupid, even for tradition-worshipping warrior monks who get shot from the sky in big retrorocket bullets.

 

One of the most common designs of armor available in the Imperium at the current point in the timeline is the Mark 7 Aquila line, which is basically just a less protected, less capable predecessor of the Mark 8 Errant. You have more armor to guard the neck ring's soft joints, better communications gear, more plating to cover feeder lines and hoses that are exposed in the previous design, more sophisiticated myomer ligature under the plating, and there's only one reason that it isn't all over the battlefield... It's not thousands of years old.

 

By any objective measure, Errant armor is vastly superior to any power armor mass produced by the Imperium, ever. Despite that fact, you'll find Chapters that will cling to ancient marks which are outperformed greatly just because they're old. Honestly, I find myself having to agree with you that the odds of young Chapters possessing a lot of ancient wargear as being pretty unlikely, given the fetishism of the Astartes when it comes to relics and wargear that was worn or used by heroes. You're going to see a lot of Aquila and some Errant if they're getting their armor straight from a forge world, with maybe some of the more archaic pieces being given to officers or important figures as a sign of honor.

[Race Bannon]

Yeah, I'm not sure if this was the right place either, but I figured it had to do with Chapter creation ... to a certain degree. Where should it go?

 

Octavulg, I get that and tend to agree. I guess I'm wondering about the likelihood a new Chapter would be given the older suits that Apothete suggests are "signs of honor". I'm sure there are no rules per se, so in a galaxy of 1K Chapters anything is possible.

 

So to your first point: I agree. Veterans from the training Chapter may take their older armor with them, it gets passed down yadda yadda yadda.

 

Second point: Agreed, but why make older, inferior suits? Lack of capability to make newer suits? Sure, but wouldn't that degrade the combat efficiency (thus survivability of new Chapters? Also, if new Chapters are created at full strength (an assumption but a safe one), then wouldn't they be given the more up-to-date armor of the time (or at least up-to-date for the Forge World at the time)?

 

Thirdly: Agreed if I can stretch my imagination. Is there any fluff to suggest that such cache exists or was SOP? Are you suggesting that the Imperium requisitions extra supplies from one Chapter to outfit a new Chapter?

 

Lastly: I concede this point to be sure.

 

So the answer therefore is, YES ... new Chapters WILL have older suits of armor (even PRE-Heresy), but they would more than likely be in the officer pool than in the rank and file (as Apothete suggests). Is it accurate to say that the newer the Chapter (or more current the Founding) the less likely they will have Pre-Heresy armor?

[Apothete]

Oh, a bullet-point list. That's easy to answer!

 

1. Yes, it's entirely likely that a Veteran coming along with a training cadre will have at least some nod to the older armor suits, given the Astarte's ridiculous willingness to put protection second to bling or age. There's an additional factor at play when you consider that the pieces of a given suit of armor don't necessarily all come from a single source, allowing for piecemeal marks to be worked in together. This is illustrated in the color plate on pages eighteen and nineteen of Codex: Space Marines, where you can see a number of mixed armors. To name an example, look at the bottom left Brother in Assault Squad Strabo, who appearrs to have a Mk. 6 helmet and Mk. 3 torso and greaves.
    
   
2. I believe that the point Octavulg was going for is that the Imperium is not homogenous in its capability to produce technology and that some Forge Worlds are, quite simply, more advanced than others and have more access to better patterns from which to manufacture wargear. While Mars and some choice Forges might have access to the schematics for the Errant armor, that doesn't mean that every single one can and that will leave you with supply lines for Chapters that might not be able to produce the newer marks. There are varying reasons for this, from politics to logistics.
    
   
3. I can't cite it off the top of my head but I believe that there's at least a few canon examples of store caches. As well, I think you'll find that the second question is likely something that happens regularly, though the bulk of supply probably comes from the Mechanicus unless there's very unusual circumstances at play. A Chapter which had a large number of older armor marks just sitting around might be willing to part with them in order to help the cadre which is leaving them, but I find it more likely that they'd keep the suits and requisition Imperator armor for the fledglings.
   

 

So the answer therefore is, YES ... new Chapters WILL have older suits of armor (even PRE-Heresy), but they would more than likely be in the officer pool than in the rank and file (as Apothete suggests). Is it accurate to say that the newer the Chapter (or more current the Founding) the less likely they will have Pre-Heresy armor?

 

I think newer Chapters are less likely to have the incredibly stupid worship of ancient gear for age's sake and be more willing to trust in the newer gear because they haven't been prejudiced against it. To use Errant armor as an example yet again, the increased vox capabilities seem like just the sort of thing you would want an officer or sergeant to have access to, if not your entire Chapter, which is probably why the official fluff says that's the typical place that it ends up (in contradiction of their own assertion that older armor is more valuable).

[Octavulg]

Second point: Agreed, but why make older, inferior suits? Lack of capability to make newer suits? Sure, but wouldn't that degrade the combat efficiency (thus survivability of new Chapters? Also, if new Chapters are created at full strength (an assumption but a safe one), then wouldn't they be given the more up-to-date armor of the time (or at least up-to-date for the Forge World at the time)?

 

Like Apothete said - older stuff is better. It's got all the weight of tradition, history and all that stuff on its side.

 

And, like you said - lack of capability. The older suits are easier to make. Mk IV era especially. I can easily see a Chapter with supply issues choosing to produce older models - old power armor is still better than none.

 

Also, maybe they just like a particular design (or part thereof) better. The Corvus helmet, for example, has all kinds of cachet and lacks that highly-vulnerable face grill. It's definitely worth having extra of. That sort of thing.

 

Thirdly: Agreed if I can stretch my imagination. Is there any fluff to suggest that such cache exists or was SOP? Are you suggesting that the Imperium requisitions extra supplies from one Chapter to outfit a new Chapter?

 

IIRC, in one of the Salamanders novels they find a ship full of pre-heresy armor.

 

And no, that's not quite what I meant. Rather that there may be excess stores of obsolete power armor from the Heresy, surplus production, orders that were meant for Chapters that have since been destroyed, that sort of thing. So they'd get used when they were discovered/it became clear no one was coming for them. This would likely make more sense in the early years after the Heresy - the first, say, ten foundings.

 

So the answer therefore is, YES ... new Chapters WILL have older suits of armor (even PRE-Heresy), but they would more than likely be in the officer pool than in the rank and file (as Apothete suggests). Is it accurate to say that the newer the Chapter (or more current the Founding) the less likely they will have Pre-Heresy armor?

 

I'd say that'd be a very fair claim to make (with some variance depending on who trained them).

[NightrawenII]

*snip*

 

It took over six thousand years for the Razorback to make its appearance and some three to four thousand years further to reach its current level of acceptance within the Astartes, despite the intrinsic value of an armored, armed infantry fighting vehicle. This is a doctine that modern military thinkers would gladly tell you has value, yet it took the Imperium more time than western society has even existed to come to the same conclusion. The Land Raider Crusader is a similar case, though it apparently took less time to gain acceptance amongst other Chapters due to the influence of Matt Ward's posterboys.

 

*snip*

 

One of the most common designs of armor available in the Imperium at the current point in the timeline is the Mark 7 Aquila line, which is basically just a less protected, less capable predecessor of the Mark 8 Errant. You have more armor to guard the neck ring's soft joints, better communications gear, more plating to cover feeder lines and hoses that are exposed in the previous design, more sophisiticated myomer ligature under the plating, and there's only one reason that it isn't all over the battlefield... It's not thousands of years old.

 

By any objective measure, Errant armor is vastly superior to any power armor mass produced by the Imperium, ever. Despite that fact, you'll find Chapters that will cling to ancient marks which are outperformed greatly just because they're old. Honestly, I find myself having to agree with you that the odds of young Chapters possessing a lot of ancient wargear as being pretty unlikely, given the fetishism of the Astartes when it comes to relics and wargear that was worn or used by heroes. You're going to see a lot of Aquila and some Errant if they're getting their armor straight from a forge world, with maybe some of the more archaic pieces being given to officers or important figures as a sign of honor.

:) Apothete, you cannot escape me today.

I agree on the points you made, but look, even the recent history have several examples of superior weapons, wargear, tanks etc. etc never made it out of paper concept. On the opposite side, there is several examples of inferior weapons making it into production. It's less known fact, that Allies actualy have access to tank on par with german tigers, but to the end of war only 20 of them have seen the field. Why? Because Sherman was "just fine."

[Apothete]

:) Apothete, you cannot escape me today.

 

What do you want from me? These stumpy legs don't go very fast!

 

I agree on the points you made, but look, even the recent history have several examples of superior weapons, wargear, tanks etc. etc never made it out of paper concept. On the opposite side, there is several examples of inferior weapons making it into production. It's less known fact, that Allies actualy have access to tank on par with german tigers, but to the end of war only 20 of them have seen the field. Why? Because Sherman was "just fine."

 

Well, true, but the modern military has issues of cost to face. The Imperium really only has issues of logistics in that it's more totalitarian than any Earthly government could even dream of being, so the only thing preventing a new design from coming out would be the resistance to it and not the perceived value of an existing design. It's a fundamentally human issue, whether it's coming from the pride and politics of a particular Forge World wanting to be known as the supplier for Imperial Crusade Number Eighteen Bajillion or the unwillingness of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Astartes to accept a new design without millenia of testing.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Also, to draw on the point of Apothete about older marks of wargear; within the arena of weaponry and vehicles I believe that Marines - and the IG I imagine - are of the belief that many items work better if they are older because of loss of construction techniques and the like.

 

Thus, would not there be something of a similar nature with armour? "It's old, so it must be better.." seems rather prevalant in 40k.

[Leonaides]

And yet IIRC it was Mk 3 armour that is generally considered to have been the best at protecting the marine inside. Since then, its been a trade-off for more mobility, easier manufacturing capability and repairability. Reason why everyone isnt instantly equipped with Mk8 - its considerably harder to build and techmarines are less familiar with the maintenace it requires, so keeping a marine in the field with a new suit is harder, takes longer, and means the techmarines dont have as much time to do other repairs to other marines kit, service weapons, fix/re-equip vehicles etc. Given that, a marine captain may say "sod the new stuff, i need boots on the ground and ammo for my tanks!".

 

Older plasma weapons are generally better because the people making it were more likely to have either understood it themselves, or be using construciton methods closer to a source who understood what they were talking about. Now, 10,000 years of imperfectly understood ritual have interfered in the construction process...

[Apothete]

And yet IIRC it was Mk 3 armour that is generally considered to have been the best at protecting the marine inside. Since then, its been a trade-off for more mobility, easier manufacturing capability and repairability. Reason why everyone isnt instantly equipped with Mk8 - its considerably harder to build and techmarines are less familiar with the maintenace it requires, so keeping a marine in the field with a new suit is harder, takes longer, and means the techmarines dont have as much time to do other repairs to other marines kit, service weapons, fix/re-equip vehicles etc. Given that, a marine captain may say "sod the new stuff, i need boots on the ground and ammo for my tanks!".

 

I refer once again to the Librarium's excellent article on armor types.

 

The Mk 3 Iron armor has limited life support capability and is not much more protective than Mk 2 Crusade armor, trading in thicker frontal plating for lessened coverage to the rear. It was intended for boarding actions and close quarters, where one can largely keep the foe to the fore. About the only noteworthy thing about it is that it served as inspiration and a starting point for the creation of Terminator suits.

 

From there, the Mk 4 Maximums suits were a huge step forwards in terms of basically every characteristic and capabilty. Their only drawback was complexity and maintenance time, which made their next step a welcome one. Almost every improvement of the Mk 4 suits made it into Mk 5 armor, though it isn't quite as protective and has more vulnerable points because of reduced plating. This is acceptable because it's a lot easier to manufacture and maintain.

 

The Mk 6 Corvus suits managed to basically meld the last two generations, becoming just as protective as Maximus armor while being about as easy to support as Heresy armor, while also managing to pack in some advancements of its own. Redundant cabling beneath the armor, better forging through rediscovery of techniques formerly lost allowing more mobility with no sacrifice of protection, the addition of gyros on the legs, a better powerplant, better medicae automation, better comms, better autosenses, and mobility enhancements like magnetic boot soles and extensible spikes... It's a big step up at little to no production cost.

 

The Mk 7 Imperator suit is next to identical to Mk 6 Corvus, aside from a slight loss in autosense capability in exchange for better protection and slightly heavier greaves due to the knee design.

 

People seem to keep saying that Mk 8 is so much more complex that it's difficult to manufacture but it's even closer to Mk 7 than the previous one is to Mk 6. The major differences are a change in the helmet design, more armor on the abdomen over the cabling, the gorget, the musculature that moves the armor, and the communication gear. The reason for it not being more common isn't that it's hard to make, it's that people in the Imperium are dumb when it comes to technology and they don't trust anything that isn't older than any civilization in the current day.

[Octavulg]

The reason for it not being more common isn't that it's hard to make, it's that people in the Imperium are dumb when it comes to technology and they don't trust anything that isn't older than any civilization in the current day.

 

To be fair, as others have pointed out, that's because the stuff from back then was built properly by people who understood the concepts behind it. ^_^

[sgtNACHO]

Also you guys cannot forget that these people think these pieces of armor have a soul, a living entity inside them that will fire if it wants and fall off if it chooses. So I think they would trust the old versions because they have many years knowing what makes this variant tick, what it likes, what it doesn't like, how to make the thing like you. Making new variants and such scare the people half to death. "What if it doesn't like me and can walk on its own and kills me like the AI of old? Nay! Nay! Repent and flee the new technological heresy!!!"

 

You get all of china to believe that every piece of tech they own has a soul, that isn't afraid to turn on them if they don't bless it and pray to it. Then give them time. They will start "thinking" like their tech and see what their tech likes. They won't work much with newer tech because it takes them a long time to get inside it's head. Might not be the best comparison ever but you see where I'm coming from?

 

Oh I like Mk V!!

[Rymeer]

So, I'm looking at my bitz trying to make more toy soldiers and it suddenly hit me:

 

All Chapters after the original 20 exist after the Heresy ... so wouldn't it make sense that their supply of PRE-Heresy armor would be virtually non-existent? For example, the "Maximus" helmet seen on the BT sprue or from FW and the Red Scorpions.

 

I'm basing this discussion on the idea that Chapters are "trained" by another Chapter. Assuming that Forge World or Chapter armories build the PA for the new Chapter, then wouldn't they be building the more current or popular style at the time of their creation?

 

Let's assume that the "Heresy" style armor was replaced by the following "Corvus" pattern within a few centuries after the Heresy. Then it follows that a few Heresy suits (and older) WOULD exist within the Legion-turned-Chapter units, but NOT in the newer Chapters. Why? Because the newer Chapters (say, 4th Founding forward) would only get access to "Corvus" pattern or newer because Forge World would equipped to build the current style of the time.

 

Correct?

 

When I created my own DIY Chapter, the Cruading Lions, I intentionally stated that they have the newest mark of armor and equipment. Since they are less than 800 years old. So, in modeling the chapter forces over the past several years, I have consistantly used the newer models... no 'beakie' helmets for instance.. no 2nd edition back packs, etc.

 

I also bought enough sprues of basic tactical marines to do something I've never seen anyone else ever do. I clipped them off the sprue and sorted them by item AND by detail. By doing this, I have a whole squad wearing the same chest plates and back packs. And a conscious choice on my part, limited my tactical marines to only use the legs without knee pads. The knee pad legs all go to my Veterans, devestator squads, and various commanders.

 

All vehicles are the newer designs, some with forgeworld bitz and pieces added. Ditto for Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Bikes and Speeders.

 

The ONLY exception to this is my Veteran Squads... now remodeled as Vanguard and Sternguard squads. THEY have beakie helmets, 2nd edtion back packs, 2nd edition bolters with target scopes, and an old style 2nd edition rhino transport. All of them 'blinged' out with extra stuff. lots of purity seals, plaques, etc.

 

I justify the old stuff by saying that they are revered suits and other equipment, passed on and re-consecrated to the new chapter and it's colors.

 

PLUS, I've been trading, and just outright buying, bitz from the Warhammer Fantasy Battle game for 'lion' bitz. Things like the helmet crests of certain knights ( I get the whole helmet and then saw off the helm and keep the crest ), feline or lion banner pole tops, bitz from things like the High Elf Chariot, and other such items. These end up as 'Icons' and the basis for 'scratch-built' crozius' for my chaplains, as well as lion-themed Force Weapons for my Librarians. I also use them to add lion themed charactoristics to things like vehicles (the Ogre Hunter's saber fang belly plate makes and excellent vehicle crest! ), and dreadnoughts.

 

So, as you can see... with some thought, and a bit of either trading or laying down of some cash... one can have a unique chapter look, using mostly newer models, and still maintain that 'Marine' look and feel.

 

May the Great Lion of Terra guide and protect you,

 

Rymeer

[Ace Debonair]

When I created my own DIY Chapter, the Cruading Lions, I intentionally stated that they have the newest mark of armor and equipment. Since they are less than 800 years old. So, in modeling the chapter forces over the past several years, I have consistantly used the newer models... no 'beakie' helmets for instance.. no 2nd edition back packs, etc.

 

I also bought enough sprues of basic tactical marines to do something I've never seen anyone else ever do. I clipped them off the sprue and sorted them by item AND by detail. By doing this, I have a whole squad wearing the same chest plates and back packs. And a conscious choice on my part, limited my tactical marines to only use the legs without knee pads. The knee pad legs all go to my Veterans, devestator squads, and various commanders.

 

The legs without the kneepads are from the same armour-set as the beakie hats, though. At least, that's what the SM painter tells me. :)