Razor spam

[DerekLee688]

I hate to bring up discussion as how to beat our Astartes brothers, but it's looking far too likely like I'll be playing against a TLAC-razor heavy list +Baals.

 

I usually try to spam anti AV12/MC weapons: combi-pred, typhoons, and Autocannon dread. How versitile are plasma bike squads? Should they remain melta heavy? The quad missile devestator squads are looking more useful with every new codex.

[ShinyRhino]

I run a plasmagun biker squad, with attached heavy bolter attack bike. I call it my TEQ-killer unit, but it works just as well against light armor.

The bikes give the plasmaguns a 36" effective range, which is nice. Even the heavy bolter can glance a Razorback on 6s, so it's worth firing if you can.

Remember, you don't need to kill a Razorback to shut it down. Even a Shaken result will keep it from firing for a turn, and you can close the distance with other units who have grenades or melta to apply.

There's a reason you'll be seeing Razorback spam starting in April...it's effective. Doubly so with Fast vehicles. But, the closer they are to you, the easier they are to hit with shoter range weapons, of which you have a LOT more available than long-range weapons.

Take a look at man-portable lascannons in your tac squads. They're cheap now, and can shut a Razorback down for a turn with an AP roll of anything but a 1, and then anything but an Immobilized result.

[minigun762]

Don't forget the simple value of assaulting them with Kraks. Its true that its less reliable if they're doing the whole fast moving thing but at least the short range of the guns lends themselves to being assaulted.

 

After that, MM Attack Bikes are always a good option, they will fair better against ACs compared to Land Speeders I believe.

 

Also the simple Combi-Predator or Rifledread will knock out the Razorbacks at range and can stunlock the Predators with a bit of luck.

 

Considering the short range, a few Multi-Meltas buried in your Tac squads doesn't seem like a bad idea either. Even outside 12", its still an AP1 Krak

[Koremu]

H-K missiles on your Rhinos are a cheap and unfriendly way to bolster your firepower at range sufficiently to neutralise them for long enough to close. I use that tactic a lot against Eldar War Walker Spam.

[gettothegone]

Godfist Pattern land raiders.

 

Believe me, take 3, fill em with basic troops, then fill the rest of the army with typhoons.

 

You'll kill Razors faster then they'll kill Raiders, especially if they're floating the las/plas combo.

 

+1 to bikes. Bikes cause lists like these fits. You can only kill so many 3+ bikes before they catch you with your pants down, especially if you flank.

 

Also, use cover, and implore the TO to actually use terrain on a table... leaving tables open due to unimaginative TO's and players, leads way to these armies doing well.

[DerekLee688]

Thanks for all the responces. When I use a LR then its godhammer. I need the bitz to give my bikers teeth now. HK's are one of those choices that seem less and less wastefull these days.

[Arikel]

If you're putting plasma on your bikers might want to consider making them a command squad, they'll get feel no pain from the apothecary for gets hot and all 4 of the riders could take the plasma guns . Clocks in at 260 points before any other upgrades. A 5 man bike squad with no attack bike with 2 plasmas would be 170 points by comparison.

[DerekLee688]

If you're putting plasma on your bikers might want to consider making them a command squad, they'll get feel no pain from the apothecary for gets hot and all 4 of the riders could take the plasma guns . Clocks in at 260 points before any other upgrades. A 5 man bike squad with no attack bike with 2 plasmas would be 170 points by comparison.

 

T5 feel no pain+ capt. to eat a AA wound or two. I can dig it. I run other vehicles to draw away the firepower needed to negate FNP anyway.

[Jackelope King]

If you're going to beat a well-constructed razorback spam list, understand this: you are getting hit with long-ranged, reliable firepower that will only get worse and worse as you close. Odds are, you can't win the long-range shooting war. A good, pure razorback spam list will have 9 las-cannons, and some will also afix HK Missiles to their Razorbacks for a first-turn alpha strike to decimate the enemy list.

 

I don't feel like the standard Land Raider pattern offers the firepower to combat this, and certainly not at a price that most lists can afford in multiples (sorry, gettothegone). Two las-cannon shots per Land Raider just don't cut it, and yes, a good Razorback spam list can probably kill a Land Raider every turn, or at least blast one or two into irrelevance every turn. One Land Raider isn't a threat, and three start to border on a really unbalanced list that'll get eaten alive by other armies.

 

I'd also very, very strongly recomend that you don't take a plasma squad below 2500 points. I'd even recommend not taking them at that level (though I admit that at higher point values, their value increases). And against razorback spam, you're relying on a gun with mediocre range and strength and no AP1 to kill Razorbacks.

 

You can either play their game or go for the throat. Realize that Razorback Spam lists are supremely redudant. If you kill a Razorback, it doesn't matter. There are so many on the table that your foe's firepower hardly falls at all. You have to be able to remain a threat after you've neutralized more than half of your opponent's firepower, which is a tricky proposition. Getting in close means you'll be eating rapid-fire plasma to the face, in one of the only configurations in the game where it can be properly spammed. Staying at long-range means you're trading fire with a swarm of missiles and las-cannon shots, which isn't a winning proposition. And once you're limping, 30-45 rapid-firing Marines are going to pop out of their transports and shoot your other leg out from under you to finish things up.

 

You need cover saves, regardless of what you do. If you're charging, stick behind building and ruins and leap-frog your way across the board. Or, if you can bring your own cover with you, with turbo-boosting bikers or flat-out speeders, that will help tremendously, and negate the fact that you're barreling head-long into a swarm of AP2 shots. You have to get within striking range of melta weapons (not necessarily into half-range for the extra die for penetration), where your extra AP1 will help you even the odds. If you can wipe out a few Razorbacks nearby that are in rapid-fire range for their plasma rifles on a flank, you're off to a good start, but your opponent will probably deploy in a refused flank to prevent this, making it dificult.

 

A long-range shooting-match against this kind of list is difficult, to say the least. Foot Space Wolves actually have decent odds here, especially a Loganwing army, which can spam such an insane number of krak missile shots every turn that it boggles the mind, while being numerous enough to soak up Razorback fire. Spamming autocannons can also help, either with a Dread-spam list (6x Rifleman Dreadnoughts) or 3x Dreadnoughts and 3x Predators. They've got enough armor to make las-cannons less reliable at knocking them around, and while they will lose the long-range shooting war eventually, they provide a threat that must be dealt with, allowing the rest of your army to maneuver. If you're going Codex Marines, you must either Mech up or ride bikes. You need to be able to generate your own cover saves, and popping smoke or turbo boosting are the only ways you'll get it. Bikes lose a lot of their shine against a list like this: while they can deliver melta quickly, las- and plasma spam ignore their beautiful T5.

 

It's a difficult army to face, so you need to play smart. Get melta in their face and clear out some breathing-room before they can rapid-fire you with plasma, or see every shot they fire at you with one krak missile and then raise them 2 or 3 more missiles. Razorback Spam is an excellent example of threat-overload. I wish you luck.

[Giga]

Razorbacks and predators are easily slaughtered with the following;

 

- a pair of TL-autocannon dreads (they will absolutely murder AV11)

- godhammer land raider

- multimelta attack bikes

- multimelta/heavy flamer speeders

- typhoon/heavy bolter speeders

- combi-preds

 

Since their rear armor is 10, and since they'll be moving 6" or less most of the time, killing them in assault is also a very valid option.

[Jackelope King]

Giga, Preds eat las-cannon blast to the front armor all day long and laugh about it. That said, it is important to load up every single force org slot with anti-tank, whether you're tailoring against this sort of list, or just making an all-comers list in general, and I'm really coming to appreciate the Typhoon Speeder.

[DerekLee688]

Preds have front 13 but ensuring that's all I get will limit where he can move.

 

I include a regular LR, multiple typhoons, MM/HF LS, and an autocannon dread in my standard army. The vindi helps too.

I plan to replace the LR with a combi pred + bikes. The LR may not be the ideal unit to deal with razors, but its sure is better than a redemer. I also am looking to get three more Autocannons for my two dreads. Rifle dread has been my favorite sugestion so far, as it fits so well in my list already.

 

I'm not looking to face a "proper 9 razor list" more like 3-5 with assault squads with a Baal Pred or two.

[Koremu]

Preds have front 13 but ensuring that's all I get will limit where he can move.

Predators move? :) :lol:

[DerekLee688]

The blood angel ones do. Be it combi or Baal, they'll either be shifting around their Deployment zone or charging down your throat.

[Koremu]

Well yes, but us lesser creatures aren't allowed to power up our engines. Even if the fluff says we should.

[DerekLee688]

Well, its either A: We don't have pockets as deep as BA lovers.

Or B: The Emperor loves them more than any other chapter.

[Giga]

Giga, Preds eat las-cannon blast to the front armor all day long and laugh about it.

Which is why I mentioned things like mm attack bikes and mm/hf speeders as well as lascannons.

 

Even so, getting to shoot at a predator's side or rear armor isn't all that hard to do either, especially if they're baals, since they have short range, so maneuvering around them and forcing them to pivot or waste firing potential is an easy thing to do, especially if you're running a fast-moving army.

[gettothegone]

Wait...

 

Preds eat las-cannon blast to the front armor all day long and laugh about it, but Raiders who actually shift the %'s into single digits for lascans, with the ability to target 2 units... is .... what?

 

One Land Raider isn't a threat, and three start to border on a really unbalanced list that'll get eaten alive by other armies.

 

The same can be said for ANY army, including Razorspam.. here watch:

 

One Soulgrinder isn't a threat, and three start to border on a really unbalanced list that'll get eaten alive by other armies..

 

I used to be a massive proponent for Razorspam.... and played it many times. Its good, don't get me wrong. It kills unassuming generals, and tactical brainfarts with ease. Till you meet up with an experienced IG or Tau player, then its a real gun fight... only all their guns say BMF, and your gun says Nerf.

 

Speed Kills vs this stuff.

 

.... bikes hoo.

[Top Secret]

Drop pods?

[Jackelope King]

Wait...

 

Preds eat las-cannon blast to the front armor all day long and laugh about it, but Raiders who actually shift the %'s into single digits for lascans, with the ability to target 2 units... is .... what?

 

One Land Raider isn't a threat, and three start to border on a really unbalanced list that'll get eaten alive by other armies.

 

The same can be said for ANY army, including Razorspam.. here watch:

 

One Soulgrinder isn't a threat, and three start to border on a really unbalanced list that'll get eaten alive by other armies..

 

I used to be a massive proponent for Razorspam.... and played it many times. Its good, don't get me wrong. It kills unassuming generals, and tactical brainfarts with ease. Till you meet up with an experienced IG or Tau player, then its a real gun fight... only all their guns say BMF, and your gun says Nerf.

 

Speed Kills vs this stuff.

 

.... bikes hoo.

Oh, no kidding. My Tau list at 2000 points versus a really well-designed Razorback Spam (9-12 Las/Plas Razorbacks) would be a shooting gallery. A very dangerous gallery, admittedly (especially if terrain to JSJ my suits behind was sparse), but one that I could probably trounce. With 10 autocannon-equivalents, 2 Hammerheads, and 2 Broadsides alongside a pair of Piranhas with Meltas, it wouldn't be hard to blast through a third of the other guy's armor in a turn.

 

The more accurate statement would be that it kills people who think 2 or 3 antitank weapons will do the job :P

[gettothegone]

The above post for me was more in jest, I'm glad you didn't take offence.

 

I just think Razor Spam has its place, but its just not as powerful as it's made out to be when its scissors are thrown against rocks.

[Grey Mage]

Drop pods?

We have a winner ++1.

 

Seriously, who cares about TLLCs when your right next to them? Just expensive easy KPs at that point.

 

Other solutions include 3 single Typhoons, who should be able to reliably take out a couple each turn.

 

ICs in DPs

 

Vendreads period.

 

Footsloggin lists.

 

Scout Squads- in Storms or even just infiltrating/outflanking.

 

Bike Squads with Plasma or MGs... turbo-boosts to them, then take them out. That 3++ will help alot. Even can be a troops choice :).

[Zynk Kaladin]

Could you drop in some sternguard with combi-meltas and multi-meltas? Plop it in the middle and watch as you tear through the razorbacks. Hell, plop in a ven dread, too, and the enemy will have to split their fire between the sternguard and dready.

[Grey Mage]

I wouldnt dare do it with one unit though... to likely to have all the enemies anti-infantry guns turn and fire while the razorbacks did what they were going to do anyways.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I wouldnt dare do it with one unit though... to likely to have all the enemies anti-infantry guns turn and fire while the razorbacks did what they were going to do anyways.

 

Well of course we must allow for multiple, simultaneous and devastating defensive deep strikes.