Space Marines against Chaos Marines and Orks.

[Mister Space Marine]

A good friend of mine and my brother have CSM and Ork armies respectively. Every time i play them, i lose. I play Space Marines.

CSM army options:

 

HQ: Terminator Lord x1,

 

Elite: Thousand Sons x12, Terminators x5

 

Troops: Possessed Marines x10, CSM x30 (ish). Banner Bearer x1,

 

Heavy Support: Defiler x1, Havoc x10

 

Ork Army Options:

 

HQ: Warboss x1, Painboys x2 ( i hate these)

 

Elite: Lootas x45 ( with Meks), Mega Nobz x 10

 

Troops: Boyz x90

 

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas x3

 

 

 

 

Space Marine Options

HQ: AOBR Captain x1, Shrike x1

 

Elites: AOBR Termies x5, AOBR Dread x1

 

Troops: Tac Marines x 40

 

Fast Attack: Assault Marines x20

 

Heavy Support: 10 Devastators.

 

What happens when i play Chaos is that he puts his Banner of Khorne next to his Havocs, so it doubles their firepower, he uses his defiler to grind me into dust, He uses his terminators reaper autocannons to just blast away, he swarms his CSM, his Possessed and his thousand suns at me. He sometimes plays his lord as a sorcerer and melts my marines into slag.

Or, sometimes, he'll clump his army around his banner and advance with extra attacks

 

Ork issues. His Lootas have those damn deffguns that blast away all the longer range firepower i have. Then his meks blast my terminators and dreadnought, then he swarms his boyz on my remaining marines. He keeps his Meks close to his boyz so they get a force field cover save, and he gives the squad of boyz in front "eavy armor", he also attaches those damn painboyz so they get 2 saves... I don't have enough attacks to kill all of his minions.

 

help is appreciated. I was also thinking about buying a couple of Rhinos for my tacs so they don't get blown to bits whenever they advance. (as fast)

[DerekLee688]

Chaos banners don't grant it's bonus to the whole army, just to the squad that has it, and Khrone banners don't do anything for shooting. Weapons always use the number of shots it says in the weapon section.

 

It's very hard to win when you arn't using the rules correctly, trust me.

 

That asside you got to get those lootas in hand to hand combat. How have you been using Shrike?

[Hellios]

Check they are using appropriate points, they are using the rules correctly including legal force selection using the FOC.

 

There should be numerous ways to beat these guys ;) but I would check that your all playing it properly first.

[Mister Space Marine]

Chaos banners don't grant it's bonus to the whole army, just to the squad that has it, and Khrone banners don't do anything for shooting. Weapons always use the number of shots it says in the weapon section.

 

It's very hard to win when you arn't using the rules correctly, trust me.

 

That asside you got to get those lootas in hand to hand combat. How have you been using Shrike?

 

 

 

I've used Shrike a couple of different ways. I tried deploying him in a squad of assault marines near the Meks a couple of times. One time i went second and his Meks blasted that squad into oblivion. Once when i did go first, he did some damage, and then got mobbed by boyz. Occasionally i run him and my army up using his fleet rule and get into melee, but before i do, the 90 boyz get about ten thousand attacks and they shoot the crap out of my guys.

 

I thought the banner gave every unit within 12 inches an extra attack. Because of that extra attack, they can fire their weapons again, even if they are heavy 1?

 

Clearing up the FOC legality, i just gave all the units they have, not necessarily the ones they use. Sorry, i should have clarified.

[DerekLee688]

+1 only goes for melee only. There is no way to milk an extra shot other than the number printed. Rapid fire weapons can shoot once or twice, everything else gets the number only.

 

How much terrain are you using? Getting a little cover can go a long way to minimizing the long range fire your boys take. The board/tabe you play on should be 25% terrain.

 

You know you have to shoot the unit nearest to you. If you put tac marines in front of assault marines then they take the shots and then the assault troops jump in. If any unit is in close combat, then neither can be shot until one is dead or one runs away. If he's been shooting your guys while locked in hand to hand then you are playing wrong.

[waaanial00]

Ahem, the first thing you need to do is whop that Ork player upside the head for cheating (with a fish if possible).

 

Painboys are not independant characters, they are upgrades for very specific units. You can only take "normal" painboys in the following units

 

1 Nobs

2 Flash Gits

 

Any other units cannot have them. There is a small exception to this, which is the HQ unit Mad Dok Grotsnikk. However that would mean he can only have 1 of them because you can only have a maximum of 2 HQ units in a standard game, also get him to check the rules because Mad Dok has very specific rules about what he and the unit can do (basically they have to go after the closest unit always, they cannot hold back and the Dok cannot leave the unit until dead!).

 

Then his meks blast my terminators and dreadnought, then he swarms his boyz on my remaining marines. He keeps his Meks close to his boyz so they get a force field cover save...

 

This worried me. The mek upgrade he purchases with his lootas is not capable of buying a Kustome Force Field, nor is it capable of leaving the unit or targeting a different unit than the Lootas. Therefore if he is buying a Mek witht he Lootas they can only have a very limited set of upgrades and they have to act as the Lootas do in all manners.

 

This sounds like a little bit of a misunderstanding though so I wont assume that this is cheating.

 

Best advice is to load flamers into your assault squads (if you havent already) to help kill those Orkish bad boys. Drop Shrike as with neither of these opponents or your list setup you will need him (combat tactics is better for your army as it is better at shooting than assaulting). Get some Rhinos for sure but also think about getting a Whirlwind, this should sit out of Line of sight and just put templates onto the Lootas. With chuff all saves these will die pretty fast and I assume he will put them all together and this should help reduce the scatter issues.

 

USE COVER! dont sit your marines out in the open until the Orks get close enough because the Lootas and shootas will just pound your tacticals into the dirt by sheer volume of fire. Sit your Terminators in cover so that they get to attack simultaneously when the Orks charge them. If they dont take the bait then you are still free to shoot up their boys which havent made it into combat and this works in your favour.

 

Dont be too aggressive with your assault marines, wiating until the Orks come to you rather than meeting them in the middle, it gives your tacticals more time to shoot up the enemy.

 

If you et your ork opponent to fix his obvious rule violations then your list shouldnt do too badly, just remove Shrike as I suggested earlier because honestly it isnt really giving you much benefit when fighting orks because their standard troops are just much better in combat than ours.

 

Wan

[breng77]

Wow, just wow... do people really not understand the rules or their codices this much. (or are you just mis-quoting things)

 

CSM army options (minimum 1715 points):

 

HQ: Terminator Lord x1

not sure what other upgrades he has here,

 

Elite: Thousand Sons x12, Terminators x5

Thousand sons are troops not Elites, also not sure of upgrades but he can only have 1 reaper auto cannon for a squad of 5 termis.

 

Troops: Possessed Marines x10, CSM x30 (ish). Banner Bearer x1,

Possesed are elites not troops, the icon of khorne gives one squad +1 to their attack characteristic which does not do anything in the shooting phase

Heavy Support: Defiler x1, Havoc x10

not sure what upgrades these have, but I assumed missiles on the havoc (they can only take 4 heavy weapons unless it is 2 squads of 5)

 

Ork Army Options: minimum 1880 points and illegal to boot

 

HQ: Warboss x1

not sure of the upgrades

 

, Painboys x2 ( i hate these)

as stated these are not an hq choice and cannot be selected with any unit he is fielding, even if they were he cannot have 3 HQ choices

 

Elite: Lootas x45 ( with Meks), Mega Nobz x 10

again this is not legal he has too many elite choices he also cannot take 15 lootas and a mek in one squad it is 14 and a mek

 

Troops: Boyz x90

not sure of up grade

 

Fast Attack: Deff Koptas x3

not sure of up grade

 

You 1890ish points

HQ: AOBR Captain x1, Shrike x1

 

Elites: AOBR Termies x5, AOBR Dread x1

 

Troops: Tac Marines x 40

 

Fast Attack: Assault Marines x20

 

 

Heavy Support: 10 Devastators.

so you are about even point wise, but yours is the only legal list, assuming you are not also bending the rules.

 

I would advise that you read, the rule book and have your friends do the same, also read their codices, and have them read them. Your group is not even close to playing by the rules(except you) as far as I can tell. It sounds to me like you guys just kind of play with all the models you own without regard for building legal army lists. If that is the case I would drop your lists down to 1500 points or less and try to build lists within set confines. Also, become familiar with your friends codex rules so that they don't tell you how something works and gain an unfair advantage when they are wrong (ie. painboys, meks, chaos icons. etc)

[RIGHT-Titan]

not sure if it's been mentioned but I'd see about mechanizing your army with rhinos and more heavy support personally.. assuming all things being equal and everyone playing by the rules.. that would help a lot.

 

I just bought 2 rhinos and converted my old whirlwind to a third. I've added 3 vindicators too all within 1500 pts..

 

I smash infantry heavy armies (read: not mechanized/boyz) hard.

[Sparhawk]

You know you have to shoot the unit nearest to you. If you put tac marines in front of assault marines then they take the shots and then the assault troops jump in. If any unit is in close combat, then neither can be shot until one is dead or one runs away. If he's been shooting your guys while locked in hand to hand then you are playing wrong.

 

You can actually shoot at any unit you want that is within range, they got rid of the target prioritization thing in 5th ed. The unit in back would most likely be getting a cover save from the unit in front but for Marines vs Ork shooting that really doesn't matter does it :D.

 

I could be completely misunderstanding what you were saying here and if I did I apologize.

[DerekLee688]

You know you have to shoot the unit nearest to you. If you put tac marines in front of assault marines then they take the shots and then the assault troops jump in. If any unit is in close combat, then neither can be shot until one is dead or one runs away. If he's been shooting your guys while locked in hand to hand then you are playing wrong.

 

You can actually shoot at any unit you want that is within range, they got rid of the target prioritization thing in 5th ed. The unit in back would most likely be getting a cover save from the unit in front but for Marines vs Ork shooting that really doesn't matter does it ;).

 

I could be completely misunderstanding what you were saying here and if I did I apologize.

 

They don't even have to take a Ld check to fire at further target? Well heck, I guess I could be wrong. I don't even have my rule book to check, but I will when I get a chance.

[Vanor]

They don't even have to take a Ld check to fire at further target? Well heck, I guess I could be wrong.

 

Nope, you can fire freely on anything you have LoS to, provided there isn't something special about that unit, like being under the effects of rage...

 

There's nothing in the 5e rule book about making Ld checks when firing, that must be from a older rule set.

[waaanial00]

 

Elite: Lootas x45 ( with Meks), Mega Nobz x 10

again this is not legal he has too many elite choices he also cannot take 15 lootas and a mek in one squad it is 14 and a mek

 

 

In the purpose of being impartial, neither of these entries are wrong on the face of it. You can take one unit of Mega Nobs as troops (because of the Warboss) so its probably just written wrong. Also the lootas with meks is only wrong if you assume his intention is 15 lootas with (up to) 3 meks, it could mean as you have put in the example above 12 lootas with 3 meks etc. So its not clear from this that its wrong.

 

However as we have both suggested the overall list has issues with it anyway so I wouldnt be surprised if the lootas example has been played incorrectly.

 

Wan

[breng77]

Yeah, I realized after the fact that the meganobs could be a troop choice with the warboss. So the list is either poorly worded and illegal or just illegal, as those meks still can't take KFFs.

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Guys, before any more of us jump down Mister Space Marine's opponent's throats, remember he said he was listing the total forces available to the players, not the army lists they were bringing to the field.