Epic models for 40k

[Jack42494]

Is it possible to use epic scale miniatures in games of warhammer 40k or apocolypse to save space/money? ;)

[Pinky Narfanet]

If you shrank all the measurements accordingly, it would be possible. I think it would be a pain in the neck, but it would be possible.

 

If you mean, "Can I use my Epic minis to play 40k against my friends [and their 28mm models]", then it would depend on how generous your friends are. Epic scale is, IIRC, on a 6mm scale, compared to regular 40ks 28 (or 32) millimeter scale.

[Jack42494]

I mean me and my freinds both use epic scale + epic(ly small) measurements.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I mean me and my freinds both use epic scale + epic(ly small) measurements.

 

You could in theory, but the Epic system is simply designed for fielding larger armies for larger (epic) battles..

[Kaled100]

I've seen a few versions of 'Travel 40k' using Epic miniatures, magnets and a metal playing surface over the years - this one is one of the nicest looking ones;

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162373

[Lord of Worms]

Is it possible to use epic scale miniatures in games of warhammer 40k or apocolypse to save space/money? ;)

 

You could, but why would you want to? Epic is a better game. If you don't mind using 6mm models, there's no reason to waste your time with Apocalypse's "rules".

[Octavulg]

Like Lord of Worms said, you could use Epic miniatures. But if you're going to do that, you might as well just play Epic...

[Jack42494]

What about using the small travel 40k set to practice for a tournament while on a vacation? That would eliminate any cost savings, however. Can someone post a picture showing an epic model next to a regular model or post a picture showing the model at its real size for a size estemate? What makes epic a better game? I have only ever played 40k.

[Octavulg]

What about using the small travel 40k set to practice for a tournament while on a vacation?

 

You'd be better just making a paper and cardboard version. It'd probably be even easier to transport. Use stand-ups for the minis and a flat mapsheet for terrain.

 

Can someone post a picture showing an epic model next to a regular model or post a picture showing the model at its real size for a size estemate?

 

An Epic Space Marine is about half a centimeter to three quarters of a centimeter high.

 

They're really, really small.

 

What makes epic a better game? I have only ever played 40k.

 

Let's see...

 

-Alternating activation instead of 'I-go, you-go'. This makes an immense difference, and I wish 40K would adopt it. It keeps you involved in what's going on at the table, and makes it a lot harder to get screwed over by turn order.

-Abstraction where it helps (for example, shooting is one dice to hit, then one dice to save (if possible). You'd be amazed how much time and effort that saves). Unit statistics are also simplified. The game thus plays much quicker.

-Rules that (apparently) decently reflect actual warfare and its principles (as much as rules about the year 40,000 can).

-Strategic scale over tactical - this means that you execute grand strategies instead of small ones - you're fighting an actual battle instead of a skirmish. And you get actual battle toys, too - Titans and War Engines and such.

-Uses orders to determine unit moves instead of everything just having the same options all the time. The actual quality of your troops is also rather more important, because it determines how well they follow orders.

-Smaller scale models means proportionally bigger table, and weapon ranges suddenly start to matter a little more. Artillery becomes more influential.

-I quite like the Orders mechanic - units are given a specific order which lets them do specific things that turn. Works very well, and for some reason I really, really like it. Not sure why.

 

Honestly, it could be summed up with "bigger, more abstract, and more involving." The strategic scale means the battles actually feel like the ones mentioned in the fluff, the level of abstraction makes things much more playable and move much more quickly, and the increased speed and alternating activations mean that you actually regularly have things to do on the tabletop.

 

Marines also (arguably) better reflect the fluff in Epic - they're probably better individually than almost any troops in the game, but tend to get beat up a lot if they're not careful. Which means, basically, that they win through superior generalship and tactics, which feels very appropriate. (Note that many, including myself, feel the basic marine list has some flaws - nothing too major, just that there are some choices and methods that happen in the fluff but would never happen in an Epic Marine list because they're simply non-competitive).

 

The rules have seen regular maintenance and updating by Specialist Games and now by the community (though the NetEA forums are down at the moment, so it's kinda hard to show you that). The rules have thus had most of their holes and bumps dealt with. Individual army lists still retain quirks, but the actual rules work very well, and said quirks aren't that big a deal. You can still have a lot of fun with Epic, and if some things don't work, they're easy enough to change or work around.

 

Since the rulebook is freely available on the GW website, I'd recommend giving a game or two a try with paper cutouts or something (if it sounds appealing).

[Lord of Worms]

-Strategic scale over tactical - this means that you execute grand strategies instead of small ones - you're fighting an actual battle instead of a skirmish. And you get actual battle toys, too - Titans and War Engines and such.

 

I get what you're trying to say here, but I don't think you're phrasing it correctly. 40k is almost entirely Strategic (and luck based) in nature. You make your army list, and if it happens to be able to deal with what your opponent brought and the dice aren't defying probability, you will win. That's it. There are very few actual decisions to be made during the game, and most of the time they are so blatantly obvious it's no choice at all.

 

Strategy: Making it so the battle is already won before a shot is fired

Tactics: Using what you have, in order to win the battle you happen to be in.

 

In Epic on the other hand, nothing is decided based on composition, unless you take something stupid like all Scouts or something. Every army has at least a few archetypal "builds" that are equally effective. You never have to compromise between "fluff" and competitive armies. There are five victory conditions in the standard scenario, and based on what army or race you are fightig, and the strengths of your army, you can decide which ones you will try to achieve.

 

CopyPasta:

Each player is trying to achieve five things known as goals.

You win if you have achieved two of these goals in the end

phase of turns three or four, and you have achieved more

goals than your opponent. The five goals are: Blitzkrieg,

Break Their Spirit, Defend The Flag, Take And Hold, and

They Shall Not Pass.

Blitzkrieg: You achieve this goal by capturing the objective

that was set up on the opponent’s table edge at the start of

the game (ie, the first objective each player set up).

Break Their Spirit: You achieve this goal by destroying (not

breaking) the formation worth the most points in the

opposing army. If several formations are tied for the most

points, you achieve this goal by destroying any one of them.

Defend To Flag: You achieve this goal if you control all three

objectives in your half of the table.

Take And Hold: You achieve this goal by capturing a total of

two objectives in your opponent’s half of the table.

They Shall Not Pass: You achieve this goal if there are no

unbroken enemy formations in your half of the table.

If neither player has won at the end of the fourth or any

subsequent turn then both players roll a D6 to see if the

game carries on another turn or ends in a tiebreak.

If both players roll the same number then the game carries

on for another turn and the players must roll again at the end

of the next turn to see if the game ends or carries on another

turn, and so on.

 

So, for example. If my opponent places his Warlord Titan on the Blitz objective I have to decide wether or not it's worth engaging it or if I should ignore it. If I think I can concentrate my forces effectively, I can win the game in one swoop. I may try this, if I have an airborne marine army with some bombers for example. On the other hand, if I don't want to risk that, I can use my 3000 point army to deal with his 2150 points (ignoring the titan) and try to achieve the other ones.

 

In 40k, frivolous cinematic nonsense defines battles, such as wether or not your captain has a plasma pistol. In Epic, none of that crap matters. Nor should it, one man's pistol shouldn't make any difference at all. Nor should it matter wether or not that tank has a plasma cannon, or a battle cannon, it's about maneuvering and concentrating your forces in a manner that resembles military engagements.

 

If I lose in Epic, it's because my opponent was better than me. Not because of some obnoxious exploitation of this rule or that special character. If I want to knock back some beers and roll dice, I'll play 40k. If I want to match wits against somebody. I'll play Epic.

[Night Runner]

Is it possible to use epic scale miniatures in games of warhammer 40k or apocolypse to save space/money? :o

 

You could, but why would you want to? Epic is a better game. If you don't mind using 6mm models, there's no reason to waste your time with Apocalypse's "rules".

I agree. Epic is one of the best and most balanced sci-fi wargames on the market. Emphasizing tactics and strategy. Having said that if you like playing tank battles with Warhammer 40K (with an eye for the new Spearhead supplement), then epic model tanks would be ideal.

[Vodunius]

Abstraction where it helps (for example, shooting is one dice to hit, then one dice to save (if possible). You'd be amazed how much time and effort that saves). Unit statistics are also simplified. The game thus plays much quicker.

 

^ THIS. In Inquisitor you track every single bullet that a gun fires, it works because your only using a half dozen figures at most - if you tried to do that with a typical 40k sized battle using those rules it would take days rather than hours, so 40k abstracts it down to a manable level that simulates the chance of Dude A killing Dude B in the space of time covered by a turn. EPIC likewise scales it down to the level where it simulates the chance of demi-squad A neutralising demi-squad B in the timeframe of a single turn. By comparison Apocalypse is like trying to play regular 40k using the Inquisitor rules.

 

-Strategic scale over tactical - this means that you execute grand strategies instead of small ones - you're fighting an actual battle instead of a skirmish. And you get actual battle toys, too - Titans and War Engines and such.

 

^ This too.. tho I disagree with the terminology, strategic scale is stuff like: "we need to drive the British out of Greece otherwise the RAF will be within striking distance of the Romanian oil fields" (hence the term 'strategic bombing') - EPIC is still tactical as it represents the battlefield itself, in fact by some definitions its still skirmish (infantry skirmish = individual infantry, armour skirmish = individual tanks, operational = 1 man/tank representing a platoon or company)

 

Can someone post a picture showing an epic model next to a regular model or post a picture showing the model at its real size for a size estemate?

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/asdas.jpg (pictures not mine, found it on a google image search once and saved it as its a good example)

 

Random factoid: The Deathwing and Genestealer expansions for Space Hulk 1st edition included tyles for randomly generation Space Hulk maps, curiously they were perfectly scaled to EPIC minis.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

actually epic might be what some call "operational" meant to define a level of scale and tactical/stategic maneuvering between tactical skirmishes and strategic war fighting.

 

i always thought the rules for epic were interesting but never tried it. the only other GW game i've tried is BFG because it's a very cheap game to play and since it's not supported i don't have to keep buying models... is it wrong that i'm glad it's dead?

 

i play FoW which is sort of between epic and 40k in scale and i like it a lot so i could see how epic would appeal.

[Lord of Worms]

The only thing that's bad about epic is that it's hard to find people to play. You almost always have to buy two armies and run demos for your friends to get people into it.

[Sawtooth]

The only thing that's bad about epic is that it's hard to find people to play. You almost always have to buy two armies and run demos for your friends to get people into it.

 

I'd get into it if anyone around here played it. The same could probably be said of Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Mordheim (oh I love that game), and Blood Bowl.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The only thing that's bad about epic is that it's hard to find people to play. You almost always have to buy two armies and run demos for your friends to get people into it.

 

I'd get into it if anyone around here played it. The same could probably be said of Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Mordheim (oh I love that game), and Blood Bowl.

 

Sadly, thats because they are Specialist Games nowadays.

 

I prefer BFG, Necro, and BB - heck I even bought the BB Xbox game (couldn't win with anything but Elves/Wardancers - go figure!) - for the more accurate skirmish/RPG elements.

[Octavulg]

The cost of two armies for Epic (at least on eBay) is more than competitive with an army for 40K.

[Vodunius]

The cost of two armies for Epic (at least on eBay) is more than competitive with an army for 40K.

 

Quoted for Truth. Everyone I know whose collected EPIC has collected multiple armies, even when they didn't have to provide armies for other people.

[Octavulg]

I have at least three Space Marine armies of proper size, plus Orks, Eldar, and Chaos.

 

EDIT: And Squats.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I like Epic, but I can't paint a regular 40k Marine.. So sod Epic scale ;)

[Octavulg]

Er..Epic's easier to paint. Everything's so small any mistakes are immediately forgiven by people looking, and in any case you only need to apply about two colors.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Er..Epic's easier to paint. Everything's so small any mistakes are immediately forgiven by people looking, and in any case you only need to apply about two colors.

 

Really? I'd always - heres that magic word again - assumed smaller scale would be harder to paint.

 

And don't "er" me like I'm some kinda' special case Mr. Octavulg :D

[Octavulg]

I'll "er..." you and you'll like it, young man. :D

 

The small scale is beneficial because it's so small that you don't have to do a lot of things that must be done at larger scales. 10mm, I'd say would be harder than 6mm (which is the scale for Epic) and maybe harder than 28mm - it's big enough that you need to do things right, but small enough that that's hard. Epic is small enough that it can be tricky, but also small enough that you don't need to do anything very fancy.

 

I always remember the anecdote of a very impressive Epic army - that the observer eventually noticed had just been painted blue. That's it. But because the banners and basing were good, it had taken him a long time to notice.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm amused to be "young man" when i'm older than you are, apparently :P

 

*Goes to hunt images of painted Epic army*

[Octavulg]

Not even a full year. Doesn't even count.

 

Besides, I get bonus cynicism years.

 

SCC painted his Brazen Claws mostly for Epic - do a search in the Blogs section for, well, Brazen Claws. I have a few pictures of my Epic Marines up in my blog, but they're not very good pictures.