A father's love

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I noticed an interesting point after reading the Heresy series.

 

The Primarchs see the Emperor as their father, thye love him as a son loves a Father. But the Emperor does not return this love, to him they are tools, science experiments created for a purpose.

 

I wonder if things would of been different if he returned their love. Would he of treated Lorgar so harshly if he saw his actions as a Father should fo seen them? A son looking to elevate his father, to worhsip him and love him as aonly a true son could.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You premise is fatally flawed; who is to say that the Primarchs understood emotion in the way that we do?

 

"Love" is a very complicated concept, even for a superhuman intelligence.

 

If you let love dictate you actions, as a father and ruler, then you are not long for this life.

 

Just think of the phrase "Love blinds us to peril".

[Brother Captain Kezef]

You premise is fatally flawed; who is to say that the Primarchs understood emotion in the way that we do?

 

"Love" is a very complicated concept, even for a superhuman intelligence.

 

If you let love dictate you actions, as a father and ruler, then you are not long for this life.

 

Just think of the phrase "Love blinds us to peril".

 

But if you look at the Primarchs and their actions, many of them, if not all, loved their father in a very Human way. They DID let love dictate their actions, which led to much of the mess of the heresy.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I don't think you can say it is love as you would define it, simply because it's a ficticious portrayal of an emotion.

[shatter]

I think He gave them enough substance to be able to play their parts. The fact that it was painful for them did not make it any easier on Him... but was still not emotionally taxing enough to make any dent on His 400 centuries worth of dedication to the entirety of the human race. Perhaps Sanguinius's part was the hardest for him to watch...

 

Regardless, the guy was a workaholic. He loved His job more than His creations.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I noticed an interesting point after reading the Heresy series.

 

The Primarchs see the Emperor as their father, thye love him as a son loves a Father. But the Emperor does not return this love, to him they are tools, science experiments created for a purpose.

 

I wonder if things would of been different if he returned their love. Would he of treated Lorgar so harshly if he saw his actions as a Father should fo seen them? A son looking to elevate his father, to worhsip him and love him as aonly a true son could.

 

LORGAR? Treated harshly?

NO. EMPHATICALLY NO.

Lorgar pathetic failings to NEED to worship something caused him to fall and be an idiot.

HE WAS REBUKED ONCE.

So that is an excuse to go turn to Chaos and tear down all the Imperium (including the Emp and his Primarchs) had built? No. No. No.

All the other legions got the memo it was an aethestic crusade bringing secular reasoning to the cosmos.

But PUNK *** word bearers apparently could not stand being told to stop F****** it up.

 

So yeah, they loved him as a father... so tried to KILL him?

Oh that makes sense. XD

 

But I agree, they did love one another as a family...to a degree.

But the Big E was their LIEGE LORD as well.

 

And he did love them as well. Reared them, cared for them, taught them. But first and foremost came Mankind's destiny. It is reasonable to expect century old beings to not have the emotional stability of a manic depressive emo teen.

"Daddy did not buy me a pony! LET THE GALAXY BURN!"

 

 

In short. Ha. hahaha. haha.

No.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

I think you are trivializing the Word Bearers a great deal.

 

It has been stated elsewhere on the boards that the Emperor telling Lorgar to quit his religious crusade to venerate him would be like Jesus coming back and being pissed at the Pope for trying to preach in his name.

 

Was this motive enough to betray the Imperium? No. It also isn't why Lorgar did it. Lorgar was rebuked by his GOD and had a crisis of faith. So he was vulnerable to the words of another, Erebus, who turned him to beings who would reward his piety and loyalty. Lorgar doesn't want to see the galaxy burn, he wants to see it turned into a giant monument to Chaos now.

 

Could the Emperor have prevented much of the Horus Heresy if he had been more open with the men who treated him like a father? Oh yes. If anything, the Emperor's greatest flaw is that he empowers only himself to lead humanity, and is unwilling to raise others up to aid him. What if he had been more open about the Warp with Magnus? What if he had saved Angron's warriors instead of letting them die? What if he had helped Horus in his role of Warmaster, instead of dumping all the responsibility on him and jetting off to Terra? We will never know, but the story of the traitors is one of tragedy, not stupidity.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Could the Emperor have prevented much of the Horus Heresy if he had been more open with the men who treated him like a father? Oh yes. If anything, the Emperor's greatest flaw is that he empowers only himself to lead humanity, and is unwilling to raise others up to aid him. What if he had been more open about the Warp with Magnus? What if he had saved Angron's warriors instead of letting them die? What if he had helped Horus in his role of Warmaster, instead of dumping all the responsibility on him and jetting off to Terra? We will never know, but the story of the traitors is one of tragedy, not stupidity.

 

According to the Collected Visions, the Emperor was open to the dangers of the Warp with Magnus.

 

WLK

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly as Kaelgrim said, Lorgar was raised on a heavily religious world. His entire life, he was a prophet to a saviour who was coming to save his world. So yeah, the other Primarchs "got the memo" that it was a secular crusade, but the other Primarchs hadn't been raised in a convent, spent their entire life studying religious texts, and in general being the Colchis equivalent of the Pope.

It isn't like Lorgar only started worshipping the Emperor when he first saw him, he'd been doing it his entire life.

[AGPO]

Its a fairly realistic interpretation of a very human response IMO. The Primarchs were superhuman in body and intellect but only too human in character.

 

Imagine if the second coming occured tomorrow. Jesus rocks up at the nearest mega-church and says "sorry guys, you can ditch all the fire and brimstone, I just thought it'd be cool if everyone could get on. Oh and remember all the 'treat others as you would have them treat you' stuff I used to harp on about? Yeah, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!" There would be a lot of people who's expectations would not be fulfilled who'd get pretty disencahnted pretty quickly. Lorgar is the same. All his life he's followed a church which preaches the coming of a messiah. He's preached this, led millions in a religious war for his faith, and seen his fellow true believers slaughtered in the cause. Then this messiah finally shows up, and it turns out he not only doesn't want the job, he ridicles the very belief that has led Lorgar to sacrifice so much, that has cost so many people's lives. I'd be mad to say the least, I'd hate the guy for destroying all that sacrifice, for belittling the sacrifice of those who died for the cause. I'd think him ungreatful and unworthy. In fact I'd think everything that Lorgar did, and be prime pray for Erebus et al

[Lt. Smash]

Careful with the refrences to Jesus and the Pope, it may offend some, and may therefore warrant the attention of a Moderator.

 

Oh, and yes things wouldn't have been all that diffrent if the Emperor had shown love towards the Primarchs. Sooner or later something would have occurred that would split the Primarchs. Most likely sibling rivalry...

 

Although the issue here may actually be trust. While the Emperor loved his creations, he did not trust them (Bar Horus).

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

Only to the overly sensitive. I'm a Christian and its a well known referance. Its an analogy that fits well and makes sense to a large audience. Be silly not to.

[Lt. Smash]

So am I. But generally religon is a touchy subject, that's all.

[shatter]

So am I. But generally religon is a touchy subject, that's all.

 

Aye, wiser to be non-specific and say something like:

'Like the messiahs of any messianic religion revealing themselves and saying "Nah, it's all rubbish." to it's high-priests'.

 

Or even:

'Like the gods of any religion revealing themselves to be non-divine and saying "Nah, it's all rubbish." to their high-priests'

[Son-of-Horus]

I think you are trivializing the Word Bearers a great deal.

 

It has been stated elsewhere on the boards that the Emperor telling Lorgar to quit his religious crusade to venerate him would be like Jesus coming back and being pissed at the Pope for trying to preach in his name.

 

Was this motive enough to betray the Imperium? No. It also isn't why Lorgar did it. Lorgar was rebuked by his GOD and had a crisis of faith. So he was vulnerable to the words of another, Erebus, who turned him to beings who would reward his piety and loyalty. Lorgar doesn't want to see the galaxy burn, he wants to see it turned into a giant monument to Chaos now.

 

Could the Emperor have prevented much of the Horus Heresy if he had been more open with the men who treated him like a father? Oh yes. If anything, the Emperor's greatest flaw is that he empowers only himself to lead humanity, and is unwilling to raise others up to aid him. What if he had been more open about the Warp with Magnus? What if he had saved Angron's warriors instead of letting them die? What if he had helped Horus in his role of Warmaster, instead of dumping all the responsibility on him and jetting off to Terra? We will never know, but the story of the traitors is one of tragedy, not stupidity.

 

It was Kor Phaeron who turned Lorgar to the Ruinous Powers.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I think you are trivializing the Word Bearers a great deal.

 

It has been stated elsewhere on the boards that the Emperor telling Lorgar to quit his religious crusade to venerate him would be like Jesus coming back and being pissed at the Pope for trying to preach in his name.

 

Was this motive enough to betray the Imperium? No. It also isn't why Lorgar did it. Lorgar was rebuked by his GOD and had a crisis of faith. So he was vulnerable to the words of another, Erebus, who turned him to beings who would reward his piety and loyalty. Lorgar doesn't want to see the galaxy burn, he wants to see it turned into a giant monument to Chaos now.

 

Could the Emperor have prevented much of the Horus Heresy if he had been more open with the men who treated him like a father? Oh yes. If anything, the Emperor's greatest flaw is that he empowers only himself to lead humanity, and is unwilling to raise others up to aid him. What if he had been more open about the Warp with Magnus? What if he had saved Angron's warriors instead of letting them die? What if he had helped Horus in his role of Warmaster, instead of dumping all the responsibility on him and jetting off to Terra? We will never know, but the story of the traitors is one of tragedy, not stupidity.

 

It was Kor Phaeron who turned Lorgar to the Ruinous Powers.

 

But it was Erebus who first discovered the Ruinous Powers; he even mutters something to similar effect in one of the books of the series that he was the first enlightened one of them - which makes Erebus the First Heretic.

[Ubermensch Commander]

To quote Nietzsche "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."

I am aware of the society Lorgar was raised in. But we must also consider the society he was educated in and trained to fight in; that of the Emperor's Imperium with it's message of secular truth.

 

When one conquers in the name of the Big E for decades to centuries (we don't have exact dating for when each Primarch got picked up) one should be able to FIGURE IT OUT.

So that whole "Oh my messiah has shocked me!" argument does not hold up in the face of repeated, steady, long term messages of secular truth.

To use the aforementioned Jesus/Pope metaphor example;

The Loargar situation is more akin to if Jesus was alive FOR CENTURIES saying

"hey guys, do X!"and the pope doing Y for centuries...then turning to satanism because JC told him to man up the flavor and stop being a punk and actually listen the message from the Dude (he who abides).

 

Then, when rebuked ONCE and informed that he and his legion of supersoldiers are supposed to be conquering rather than preaching, Lorgar has such a crisis of faith (again, this the Emperor's message of secular empire is not a surprising thing or a betrayal, since the Big E CONSTANTLY denied his divinity) and decides to burn down everything he and his brothers had fought for.

That is not a logical or even balanced reaction to such an act. Nothing the Emperor did precipitated that.

No. That is the weakness of Lorgar. His insanity, his need to give supplication to a "higher power", opened the door for Chaos, not the Emperor's actions.

 

The Big E should not have compromised his Imperium or its message just to aid Lorgar's little neuroses.

 

The Emperor raised Horus like a son and still Horus turned.

 

So, in response to the OP, NO.

A little more tender loving care would NOT have averted the Heresy. The Emperor gave them the greatest armies in existence to lead and places of highest honor in the greatest empire existing at the time. What more should he have given the Primarchs? A pony?

He expected his centuries old sons and generals to obey his commands. Not unreasonable, IMO.

 

On a more positive note, the Dornian Heresy on this very board is an excellent example of a "what if?" scenario for the HH.

 

*reason for edit* Tone bordered on the offensive. Hope this reads easier.

[Lord_Caerolion]

When one conquers in the name of the Big E for decades to centuries (we don't have exact dating for when each Primarch got picked up) one should be able to FIGURE IT OUT.

So that whole "Oh my messiah has shocked me!" argument does not hold up in the face of repeated, steady, long term messages of secular truth.

To use the aforementioned Jesus/Pope metaphor example;

The Loargar situation is more akin to if Jesus was alive FOR CENTURIES saying

"hey guys, do X!"and the pope doing Y for centuries...then turning to satanism because JC told him to man up the flavor and stop being a punk and actually listen the message from the Dude (he who abides).

 

And yet the Emperor happily sat through the religious celebrations at his arrival. What background we have seems to say that the Emperor was perfectly willing to tolerate Lorgar's 'eccentricities' until one day it became too much, and the Emperor finally told Lorgar that all this religious stuff was stupid.

So your argument doesn't really have any fluff to back it up. I know the Emperor preached secularism, but he's made backwards calls before (untrained psykers being the most dangerous thing ever, so lets not train them when they're Marines!) and the evidence points towards the Emperor making another retarded call with Lorgar. Who knows, maybe he hoped that his brother Primarchs would talk him out of it. It doesn't change the fact that the Emperor allowed all of Colchis to hold massive celebrations praising him as a god, and yet didn't say a thing about it. For someone who didn't want Lorgar to worship him, he didn't seem to tell him that often.

[pueriexdeus]

As a father, I'll say that the only way to maintain compliance is with unconditional Love. Sometime a lot of tough Love. In the long run the children will eventually understand the what and why. Or they will have to be disenhereted.

 

Not personally knowing the authors of the Books/Codexes/Articles. It might be that they have no reference of the fallen/redeemed child, in their personal lives. And because of that they cant impart such an attitude in their writings.

 

Though it might just be that a standard of denial might be the corporate ethos.

[Ubermensch Commander]

When one conquers in the name of the Big E for decades to centuries (we don't have exact dating for when each Primarch got picked up) one should be able to FIGURE IT OUT.

So that whole "Oh my messiah has shocked me!" argument does not hold up in the face of repeated, steady, long term messages of secular truth.

To use the aforementioned Jesus/Pope metaphor example;

The Loargar situation is more akin to if Jesus was alive FOR CENTURIES saying

"hey guys, do X!"and the pope doing Y for centuries...then turning to satanism because JC told him to man up the flavor and stop being a punk and actually listen the message from the Dude (he who abides).

 

And yet the Emperor happily sat through the religious celebrations at his arrival. What background we have seems to say that the Emperor was perfectly willing to tolerate Lorgar's 'eccentricities' until one day it became too much, and the Emperor finally told Lorgar that all this religious stuff was stupid.

So your argument doesn't really have any fluff to back it up. I know the Emperor preached secularism, but he's made backwards calls before (untrained psykers being the most dangerous thing ever, so lets not train them when they're Marines!) and the evidence points towards the Emperor making another retarded call with Lorgar. Who knows, maybe he hoped that his brother Primarchs would talk him out of it. It doesn't change the fact that the Emperor allowed all of Colchis to hold massive celebrations praising him as a god, and yet didn't say a thing about it. For someone who didn't want Lorgar to worship him, he didn't seem to tell him that often.

 

I recommend the Horus Heresy books. And the Horus Heresy Art Books. They completely back up what I am saying. The entire Imperial credo was based on atheistic points. Last Church story in the short stories seems particularly poignant. Anything involving the humans preaching the Imperial Truth (as I believe it was called) works as well. It crops up in almost all the books. He also censured and condemned the growing cult around him. I do have fluff to back it up. Thanks much.

As for Colchis, he allowed a newly conquered world, by one of his sons no less, to have their moment of huzzah.

Rather like with Caliban, another Primarch held world and if you read those Horus Heresy books you will see my point proved yet again, the culture becomes "Imperial" over time.

If you are going off the Word Bearers IA, well, you should know that the IA are written to be sympathetic to the Legion/Chapter being portrayed. Just compare the Iron Warriors and Imp Fists. Two different observations, more or less same events.

No, once again, Lorgars actions are FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR from reasonable. Betraying the entire cosmos to entropy and decay after conquering it, just because he learns his flying spaghetti monster denied his worshipful adulations, rather than turning his faith to something useful, is the mark of a zealot and a madman. How, given a rebuke from your Lord after all the gentle nudges have failed, does turning on your brothers and burning down all you have down make any kind of sense? How would the Emperor coddlign that madness have been a good thing? Suppose Lorgar did not turn, but instead served as a burning brand of hypocrisy that made worlds rise up in religious rebellion against the Emperor, likely under Chaos? Suppose Guilliman or one of the other Primarchs turned because of the betrayal of all the Imperium stood for?

No, if Lorgar went rabid and cried like an emo over one rebuke and urging from his creator to fulfill his duty as primarch and subject to the Emperor, there is no hope for someone so weak willed and weak minded. The Emperor made no bad call with Lorgar. He just assumed one of his genius Primarchs would figure out the obvious given enough time. There was no need to tell him directly, it was literally written on the wall. And on the planet. And blaring from the secular preachers that went with the Legions from Planet to planet. I mean really, one chastisement and it's burn the galaxy? Psycho.

The only mistake the Emperor made was not slapping Lorgar sooner and harder. But again, we see the Big E made alot of allowances for his Primarchs, from Russ's drunken antics and attitude, Magnus psykery tendencies, and Curze's....outright creepiness. So long as they stayed more or less true to the game plan, the Emperor seemed to give them alot of leeway.

 

Now, on to the related point.

Psykers.

Initially they were tolerated, they were trained, but enough of the Primarchs argued for their removal to get it passed. The Emperor was well aware of their danger. C'mon, a possible Daemon pop out point? Nope, not gonna happen. Then we have Magnus actions proving the dangers of it all. Warned not once, but TWICE, not to mess with the uncontrolled psyker powers and sorcery, he goes and messes things up...big.

The Emperor never "went back" on anything, he just tightened restrictions when it started becoming an issue. With the Imperium reaching a point of greater stabilization, it became feasible to do so. Plus, when Magnus went against the Emperor's warning the first time, that brought the issue to a head. This leads to the council of Nikea. The Emperor could not even trust Magnus, his own Primarch son whom he shared knowledge of the warp with, to resist its siren call. So, not surprisingly, the Emperor decided that when you F*** up, there are consequences. As a result, banning of Psykers. Barring of course the Astropaths and Navigators, both of whom are touched by the Emperor if different ways so are tolerated due to necessity and the safeguards in place.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

I think you have a majorly skewed perception here. For one, it wasn't a minor rebuke. The Emperor brought the hammer down on Lorgar, after seeming to condone his actions. The Primarchs look at him as a father, and when your father is furious at you for following something you've given your whole life to (especially when that something is HIM) you tend to feel betrayed. And then you find something that actually, I dunno, rewards you for your faith and diligence, your telling me you wouldn't switch?

 

Its clear that your arguments stem from a belief that religion is bad. It is no more bad than any other sort of philosophy and I would argue that in 40k, the Imperium would have been better off had the Emperor not shoved his athiestic "truth" down everyone's throats. Why? Because in 40k, there actually ARE gods and daemons.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I think you have a majorly skewed perception here. For one, it wasn't a minor rebuke. The Emperor brought the hammer down on Lorgar, after seeming to condone his actions. The Primarchs look at him as a father, and when your father is furious at you for following something you've given your whole life to (especially when that something is HIM) you tend to feel betrayed. And then you find something that actually, I dunno, rewards you for your faith and diligence, your telling me you wouldn't switch?

 

Its clear that your arguments stem from a belief that religion is bad. It is no more bad than any other sort of philosophy and I would argue that in 40k, the Imperium would have been better off had the Emperor not shoved his athiestic "truth" down everyone's throats. Why? Because in 40k, there actually ARE gods and daemons.

 

No hammer was brought down. Lorgar was not fired upon. No legions were sent against him. He was simply finally reigned in, as against the Emperor's wishes, he never realized the truth that followed his armies, boarded in his ships, and was spoken by the said father and continued his insanity. If daddy tells you you are wrong, suck it up, and get with the program.

Feel betrayed? HOW? He was the ONLY one who did not get it! For decades! Centuries!

Remembrancers, destroying churches as they went, denying his (The Big E) own divinity, WHAT MORE DOES HE HAVE TO DO TO MAKE LORGAR SEE THE MESSAGE OF HIS EMPIRE?????

Staple it to his forehead?

 

As for faith and diligence, he did neither faithful, nor diligent. He did not do his duty as a soldier, he did not do his duty as a son, he did not do his duty as a vassal. He wanted accolades for disobeying the Emperor? Please.

 

Lorgars belief does NOT justify betrayal. Simply because his faith flew in the face of all evidence before him, in no way, shape, or form, justifies turning on those that raised him, fought alongside him, and those he was charged to protect.

 

I also disagree on the "Gods and Daemons" aspect.

 

C'tan=Star beings in jars.

 

Chaos=sentient energy and psychic reflections in one psycho reactive mass

 

Daemons=see above.

 

If you need religious connotations to see these things, that is fine. But I get where the Emperor was coming from. He wanted to literally blot out the Chaos beings by starving them of belief.

 

I will also kindly ask you to not remark as to how I view religion. If you really want to know, shoot me a private message, I do not want this thread shut down.

Though consider this, perhaps your own feelings of religion and belief skew your own perceptions.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ubermensch, I have indeed read the Horus Heresy books, and own the collected visions. It doesn't change the fact that the one source we have regarding the Emperor's coming to Colchis states that there were celebrations in which he was celebrated as a God, at which he surely would have been present. The Emperor allowed these celebrations to go on, allowing Lorgar to believe he was a God.

 

As for whether or not Lorgar did his duty, his duty was to reclaim the worlds of Man. Lorgar was doing so, and while he may have taken slower, Lorgars worlds were amongst the most stable in the aftermath of their reclaiming.

 

The only mistake the Emperor made was not slapping Lorgar sooner and harder. But again, we see the Big E made alot of allowances for his Primarchs, from Russ's drunken antics and attitude, Magnus psykery tendencies, and Curze's....outright creepiness. So long as they stayed more or less true to the game plan, the Emperor seemed to give them alot of leeway.

 

For once, I'll agree with you. If the Emperor had corrected Lorgar at the time of his discovery, then perhaps all that could have been avoided. Instead, he gave tacit approval, and allowed Lorgar to keep his beliefs.

 

No, once again, Lorgars actions are FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR from reasonable. Betraying the entire cosmos to entropy and decay after conquering it, just because he learns his flying spaghetti monster denied his worshipful adulations, rather than turning his faith to something useful, is the mark of a zealot and a madman. How, given a rebuke from your Lord after all the gentle nudges have failed, does turning on your brothers and burning down all you have down make any kind of sense? How would the Emperor coddlign that madness have been a good thing?

Lorgar wants the galaxy rebuilt in praise of the Chaos Gods. Contrary to popular belief, the Chaos Gods don't want all life extinguished, they just want the hated Imperium destroyed. That doesn't mean they don't want to replace it with something else.

 

 

Suppose Lorgar did not turn, but instead served as a burning brand of hypocrisy that made worlds rise up in religious rebellion against the Emperor, likely under Chaos? Suppose Guilliman or one of the other Primarchs turned because of the betrayal of all the Imperium stood for?

And I guess the Emperor's plans of a galactic secular nation had no opponents, and made no-one turn to a Cult... oh wait...

 

Lorgar not turning, even if we did have the scenario you put forth take place, would end out roughly the same. We've still got a Ministorum, only in this new future it would be created by Lorgar, and it probably would have been Horus who organised everything after the Guilliman Heresy.

 

He wanted to literally blot out the Chaos beings by starving them of belief.

Well, Chaos doesn't work like that, as has been stated in numerous publications. If Chaos only gained power by direct worship, then sure, but Chaos gets power from emotions, so unless removing religion will also stop people feeling emotions, that plan doesn't work.

 

 

You seem to be forgetting just how traumatic a crisis of faith is for people. People can have their lives ruined by having their faith destroyed. Everything that seemed certain to them before no longer is. And remember, that's with a God that none of them have ever personally met, let alone be the son of. The fact that Lorgar went for so long in his belief is the fault of the Emperor. Eventually, he had his entire world-view destroyed, and funnily enough it left him a broken man. It doesn't matter that he was a Primarch, that doesn't change that he is still essentially human. Just because you're smart doesn't mean you can flip a mental switch and get rid of your emotions.

[Raulmichile]

What I think the Emperor should have done with Lorgar is telling the "truth" concerning his religious beliefs:

 

"Lorgar, you had visions of my coming because you are a being with a psychic talent, not a prophet; and I am not a god, I'm a superubermega psyker with unmatched powers who can do things that to ignorants may seem as godly acts, but no, this is not true; I'm a mortal albeit somewhat unique. Chaos Gods? Well, they are our emotional counterparts in other dimension called the Warp, the call themselves gods because they, like me, have tremendous capabilities and feed on the ignorance of people -and don't mess with them, they are very bad guys and are much bigger than you can handle with-. So, instead of telling people that I'm a god, tell them the "truth" that I am a mortal, their leader, whose intention is uniting humanity, guide them to a new era and shield them from the predation of warp beings. Build universities instead of churches, because imperial truth is science, not religion. Now that you are enlighted, share what I have told you with all people you encounter in your campaigns, understood? Now go and kick some butts wherever people don't beleive what you say and remember: Imperial Truth OK?"

 

In this way the Emperor wouldn't have shaken Lorgar beliefs to the core, but change his main tenents instead; showing him the errors of his views and replacing them with logical, credible, rational and proven facts of how things really are (to the Emperor at least), avoiding any crisis of faith as there are no void to cover up. Thus, The Emperor would have transformed a consumate preacher into a wonderful orator, full of drive and passion instead of dogma.

 

My two cents.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

I could definitely see that happening. I think the Emperor's mistake with Lorgar is he couldn't quite comprehend the nature of Lorgar's faith and so treated like "just a phase" instead of taking a logical approach. Lorgar was smart, he would have understood so long as you didn't try to break apart his worldview with a hammer.