Kor'sarro Khan + Squad + IC

[Mycroft Holmes]

I've been attempting to work through a tricky rules idea and I was hoping some others might shed a new light on the whole thing.

 

Kor'sarro Khan has a lovely ability called Master of the Hunt.

Master of the Hunt grants Furious Charge and Hit and Run to himself and to any squad he is attached to.

 

If I attach Khan to a squad, both Khan and the unit benefit from both USRs.

If I attach Khan to another Independent Character, both Khan and the IC benefit from both USRs.

 

The tricky question is; If I attach both Khan and the other IC to a unit, do all three benefit from Furious Charge and Hit and Run?

 

Not getting Furious Charge sucks but isn't terrible; the real issue is Hit and Run. If I assault with Khan/IC/unit and the IC does not gain Hit and Run, then all three may not break off as Hit and Run must apply to everyone in the unit.

 

If I want that IC in the assault and I want to use Hit and Run, do I have to make sure he is more than 2" away in the movement phase so he's not joined with the unit when they declare assaults?

 

 

Any rules/page references would be awesome,

Thanks!

 

Mycroft

[Mycroft Holmes]

To be clear; I do believe that the IC gains the USRs. What I'm really looking for is the rules to back it up.

[Koremu]

Master of the Hunt states explicitly that the rules are conferred to "models in his unit", and as ICs become a part of the unit, those rules will therefore apply to the second (and subsequent, if using Techmarines) IC.

[greatcrusade08]

check the entry on ICs joining units, it should say "treated as part of the unit".. once you see the word unit, you cant then argue against this.

[Isiah]

Let's keep this strictly to rules issues please. Further tactics on this can be discussed in the Kor'sarro Khan + Squad + IC +"Master of the Hunt" topic I've started in Tactica Astartes with posts split from this one. I know I keep harping on about this but for good reason -- if practical applications and tactics are where they should be than everyone knows where to go to find them :).

 

Cheers

I

[Mycroft Holmes]

In an attempt to be clear with the Adepticon managers I sent this question:

 

"Master of the Hunt" pg 94

Kor'Sarro Khan, and models in his unit, benefit from the hit and run and furious charge special rules (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.)

 

My question:

If Khan has joined a squad that is also joined by another Independent Character, will the other IC gain 'hit and run' and 'furious charge?'

 

and I got this response:

 

Jason,

 

For Adepticon, we abide by the rules which state that Independent Characters do not gain special rules from a unit by joining it unless the rule specifies that it applies to Independent Characters that join the unit. So Khan's special rule would have to say that it applies to other Independent Characters joining the unit for the other IC to benefit from it.

 

 

I hope that helps,

 

Jo[sIC]

 

I asked for clarification/exmaples on a few things in response and I'll share what ever I get back.

My personal feeling is that this seems like a pretty badly thought line of reasoning.

 

Does this mean that (for example) if a Tervigon uses it's psychic power "Catalyst: ...a single friendly unit within 12" of the psyker gains the Feel No Pain special rule..." on a squad of Warriors with attached Tyranid Prime IC, that the ability would not apply to the Prime since the rule does not call out that it affects attached IC?

 

I really don't expect people to run their normal games this way, but their reasoning suggests that any ability/power that doesn't call out attached IC then it doesn't affect them. That's broken in so many ways I don't even feel like getting into them.

 

Mycroft

[greatcrusade08]

master of the hunt quote from codex:

 

Korsarro Khan and models in his unit benefit from hit and run and furious charge special rules

 

Its easy to work out.

is the second IC a model in the same unit... YES

[Mycroft Holmes]

Trust me, I totally agree, but apparently Adepticon is going to be using some incredibly odd reading of the rules.

[Koremu]

That ruling is wrong.

[Sparhawk]

That ruling is wrong.

 

Agreed, but I suppose the TOs do have the power of discretion when it comes to rulings in their tournament. The only issue is that if someone was unaware of this prior to arriving it could throw off their strategy if they were planning on running say Kahn and a Chappy in the same group...

[Race Bannon]

They are wrong, straight up.

 

BUT if you want to play in their sandbox, then it's their rules.

 

Best save your tactic for another venue.

[Mycroft Holmes]

This is their official rule:

RB.48B.02 – Q: Independent Characters joining a unit do not gain the unit‟s special rules unless “specified in the rule”. What exactly does this mean and does it apply to special rules that have been conferred to the unit by another character?

A: A special rule must specifically mention that it applies to Independent Characters joining the unit for it to be conferred, and this includes special rules granted to the unit by another character. Please note that this only applies to “special rules” (as defined in their codex) and to the “universal special rules” found in the rulebook, not to Wargear or Psychic Powers [clarification].

 

 

I still plan bringing the attached Grey Knight Grand Master. He's carrying "Unguents of Warding" which is a 4+ against any and all psychic powers. Depending on the opponent he can be placed with the Tactical squads or against Tyrandis with Khan to prevent the "Paroxysm" psychic power. That power is a game ender for my army and I expect to see a number of Nid armies at the tournament.

[greatcrusade08]

these people need to remove thier heads from the sand.. this is a blatant misread/understanding of the rules

[Mycroft Holmes]

I'm mostly mystified about why they think that Wargear/Psychic powers are special cases some how and that only "Special Rules" are different.

 

It's unfortunate, but the only way to fight rules lawyers is to become one, and right now I'd rather not focus on that.

[Isiah]

Whatever the guys at Adepticon say, remember that for the purposes of this forum it has no bearing. As with all tourneys – the organisers are totally at liberty to come up with whatever houserules they fancy – just don't confuse these houserules with what's in back and white in the BRB :).

 

On the whole the Apeditcon ruleset is a good effort – it's the kind of clarity and confirmation (if not always right...) that should be coming from GW themselves. But that's a topic for another place.

 

Cheers

I