How would you work over this unit?

[ShinyRhino]

Over the weekend I played in a 1000 point "random pairings" doubles tourney. While it was great fun all around, my partner's main contribution to the teamup was one HUGE Eldar Seer Council on Jetbikes.

I don't have the exact composition of the unit, but it consisted of a Farseer, and a maximum amount of Warlocks, all on Jetbikes. I think there were 11 models in that unit?

Three or four had some sort of heavy flamer weapon. Psychic powers of Doom, Fortune, and Mind War. Then a guy with Embolden (?) to reroll any failed Psychic Tests (on 3d6, drop lowest). Witchblades on every guy.

 

Essentially, the unit would apply Fortune every turn. Turbo boost for the 3+ cover if not firing. 3+/4++ on every model. Witchblades wound on 2+, and hit vehicles at S9.

Our opponents were POURING fire into this unit, and barely making a dent. In one of our games, they charged a trio of Killa Kans, and smoked them all. The Seer Council then weathered a full turn of shooting, and took a charge from a DP of Tzeentch, Trukk Boyz, six Nobz, and a Big Mek. The Seer Council held up all of those for two full turns, and still survived. Rerollable 3+/4++ is disgusting.

They took a charge from Lysander and attached squad of Hammernators (after surrounding and exploding their LRC), and eventually won, running ysander off the board (unlocky Morale roll from the Lysander owner).

 

Doom was applied every turn against whoever the unit was currently firing at, or in melee with. Mnid War was used to snipe out the special/heavy weapons/sergeants in squads.

 

Granted the unit cost 745 points total, but their owner claims to be planning on running TWO of these things in the 2500 point 'Ard Boyz in May. Not looking forward to facing that.

 

How do you beat this unit, let alone two of them? The Ld10 of the Farseer makes a Psychic Hood a basic rolloff of a d6 for each power. Mind War can eat your specialists alive. Null Zone cancels out the rerolls from Fortune. The Seer Council is a retinue, so you can't pickout the Farseer in close combat. Grrrrr.

[Grey Mage]

Id tarpit it.

 

Why in gods name do you fear 22 attacks that give you armor saves, seriously.

 

You wont kill them... but you dont have to. Drop an assault marine squad into them, or GHs, or LC TDA and youll hold them up for the next 4 turns without issue. Put your librarian over there and all of a sudden his psychic powers arent so scary.

 

Best squad for C:SM to hit them with? A Libbie+ 5 bikes. Take a PF on one bike, take Null Zone and Avenger on the Libbie, and chase his happy butt around the field tell you corner and kill him. Target the farseer with your seargent, and let the rest work on the warlocks.

 

1) Mindwar cant be used in CC.

2) Say it with me- Psychic Defense.

3) Witchblades are NOT powerweapons

 

At 2500pts? Two units of my own bikes- 8+ Attack Bike, PF, MM, 2x MG- 310pts each. Captain with Relicblade+Stormshield and Artificer Armor- 185pts, coupled with a Libbie with Null Zone and Avenger for 135pts. That gives you your HQs and 2 troops, fast moving and flexable against all comers- and will massacre those Warlocks. 940pts.

 

Its the same thing as Nobz Bikers- you have to allocate a similar number of points to hitting them as they are to hitting you. Throw in a LSS (HF) with 5 Scouts and a Powerfist at 160pts brings you to 1100, and gives you a bit of backup if you need it, or a nice hunter-killer squad otherwise.

 

Alternatively make the captains unit a command squad.

 

Round out the list with a third troops choice, a couple Dreadnaughts, some Sterngaurd, and some LR armored firepower for killing enemy tanks. And a Whirlwind. Never fight Eldar without a Whirlwind if you own one.

 

Play your objectives- even in hard boyz its not all annihilation. Take the points he squandered and use them to beat the tar out of his troops choices until theres nothing left. No troops, no objectives.

 

And Im sorry, but Im not impressed they took out 3 Killa Khans or a LR in one turn- a unit of vangaurd half their points can do that, or heck a vendread or IC on the charge... for a third of their points. Theyre s9 vs vehicles, but they dont get instant death vs characters... so eat them for breakfast.

[Koremu]

You just plow fire into it and hope to get lucky. Failing that, Tarpit it with Terminators. Don't split your forces up - this kind of unit relies on being able to piecemeal you and avoid such units as can tarpit it.

 

Or alternatively you can ignore it utterly, table the rest of the army and just objective grab for victory.

 

If you want to give the Eldar player a bait target (something he MUST kill), then pack your Terminators into a Land Raider Redeemer, which has STR6 (Instant Death to Eldar) AP3 (no Jetbike 3+ save) and ignores cover (no turbo save). He MUST close with it to kill it (which gets him locked in combat with the Termis after the Raider dies), but if it's on top of the rest of your units you can apply a ton of dakka before the Termis hit. If he tries to attack another unit, he gets Flamestormed and then Terminatored.

[Br.Pat]

The venerable Grey Mage's response is spot on.

 

Personally I hate fortune, and the only reason I have a Librarian in my army is because of his psychic hood and null zone.

 

The psychic hood will keep the enemy from casting fortune, and even if he does null zone will effectively cancel it out. That said, remember that they cannot roll a cover save against an attack that ignores it. This includes flamer template weapons and close combat attacks. I have a feeling that against a vanilla Assault Squad and an Assault Terminator squad (possibly with a chaplain) the SM will eventually win. Remember, that if that Farseer is wounded by a Thunder Hammer attack, he'll be instantly killedt. It's actually worth piling all your Terminator attacks against the farseer, because even if you somehow lose the combat, "and they shall know no fear" will save you if they overrun you.

[Giga]

I found my libby's psychic hood goes a great way toward nullifying seer councils. Without their rerollable 3+ save (armor or from turboboosting), they are as easy to kill as any MEQ. Just rapid fire them to death. Since it's so expensive, every lost model goes a long way toward nullifying the entire unit.

[ShinyRhino]

Interestnig points, guys.

 

I think the "fear" of the Witchblades comes from the wounding on 2+, with rerolls from Doom. That means @11 armor saves per turn.

 

I do actually run a pair of 8-man bike squads with attached attack bikes. One is a meltagun squad (2x meltaguns, 1x MM on the attackbike) and the other is a TEQ squad (2x plasmaguns, 1x HB on attack bike). Biker Captain with relic blade, arty armor, hellfire rounds.

 

I think it might be VERY bebeficial for me to build myself a Biker Librarian to join one of these squads. Captain usually joins the TEQ-killer squad, so the Libby could join the melta squad.

 

But, the T5 of the bikes is nullified by the 2+ wounding Witchblades. If my Mathhammer is right, 22 swings at I5, 16 hits, 16 wounds (assumes unit is Fortuned). I'll fail about 5 saves, and lose 5 of my bikers in a single turn of combat, before they can attack back (except the Captain who'll swing his relic blade at I5).

 

The Librarian with the Hood and Null Zone would level the playing field a LOT, though. Hmmm. Yeah, I need to build one on a bike.

[Koremu]

It should be pointed out that Eldar Seer councils are about the only target in the game where Lightning Claws are better than TH/SS (more attacks, better chance to wound, Inv save is irrelevant).

 

Also, you can FNP against a witchblade. If you're going Bikes, go Command Squad Bikes.

[ShinyRhino]

Isn't the Farseer not snipable in close combat, though? The Seer Council is a retinue, and therefore you can't pick the Farseer out of that squad?

[Koremu]

Isn't the Farseer not snipable in close combat, though? The Seer Council is a retinue, and therefore you can't pick the Farseer out of that squad?

You can't. But on the other hand, he is part of the Squad, and therefore subject to normal requirements on squad wound allocations. So you can plaster the unit with STR6 attacks and force him to take ID saves. Or just LC attacks in high volume.

 

Oh and remember, once he loses 6 models from that squad, if it breaks it's not coming back. Eldar are practically the only race in the game who use the normal morale rules.

[Gaz1858]

If you want a single unit specifically built for anti-psychic then head over to the WH codex. Theyve got a fair few anti-psyker weaponry that may just do the trick!

[ShinyRhino]

Would it be worthmy time to make the Librarian an Epistolary on a Bike in this situation? This would allow me to use both Null Zone, and Might of the Ancients in a single turn, for three (four on the charge) more S6 swings at I5. It would likely take some doing, but a double-charge by both bike squads, and both Bike ICs might roll through one of these Seer Councils by piling on the S6 hits from Might'ed Libby and Captain's relic blade.

 

Or, is that a waste of 50 points, when the Libby already has a force sword that'll ignore armor saves, and Null Zone will be up and running?

[Br.Pat]

I generally don't upgrade my Librarians. They're too flimsy for that.

[Koremu]

The Libby is only Init4 IIRC, and you're risking the Librarian every time you use a Psychic Power because of runes-of-testing-on-3D6.

 

Hence why I would go for the Terminator Librarian. With Storm Shield. But not an epistolary.

[ShinyRhino]

The Libby is only Init4 IIRC, and you're risking the Librarian every time you use a Psychic Power because of runes-of-testing-on-3D6.

 

Hence why I would go for the Terminator Librarian. With Storm Shield. But not an epistolary.

 

Makes sense. I'd have to think up a delivery method for the TDA Libby and Terminators. Though I could just slog them down the center of the board and play spoiler with the Hood and Null Zone from outside the combat. Use the Tac Terminators' stormbolters and CML or AssCan to try to soften the Council with shooting.

[Koremu]

The Libby is only Init4 IIRC, and you're risking the Librarian every time you use a Psychic Power because of runes-of-testing-on-3D6.

 

Hence why I would go for the Terminator Librarian. With Storm Shield. But not an epistolary.

 

Makes sense. I'd have to think up a delivery method for the TDA Libby and Terminators. Though I could just slog them down the center of the board and play spoiler with the Hood and Null Zone from outside the combat. Use the Tac Terminators' stormbolters and CML or AssCan to try to soften the Council with shooting.

Like I said, I would vote for camping a Redeemer near to your other units. The Eldar player has to address the presence of the Flamestorm Cannon, because a STR6 AP3 Template that works even if shaken or stunned is not something that the Seer Council can risk being hit by. Providing you can remove any other anti-Raider firepower the enemy has (which, with a 750 point seer council, won't be much... Bright Lance walkers at a guess), you'll force the Seer Council to CC the tank, at which point they either fail, get burnt and then assaulted by Assault Terminators, or they succeed and still get assaulted by the Termis...

[ShinyRhino]

The Libby is only Init4 IIRC, and you're risking the Librarian every time you use a Psychic Power because of runes-of-testing-on-3D6.

 

Hence why I would go for the Terminator Librarian. With Storm Shield. But not an epistolary.

 

Makes sense. I'd have to think up a delivery method for the TDA Libby and Terminators. Though I could just slog them down the center of the board and play spoiler with the Hood and Null Zone from outside the combat. Use the Tac Terminators' stormbolters and CML or AssCan to try to soften the Council with shooting.

Like I said, I would vote for camping a Redeemer near to your other units. The Eldar player has to address the presence of the Flamestorm Cannon, because a STR6 AP3 Template that works even if shaken or stunned is not something that the Seer Council can risk being hit by. Providing you can remove any other anti-Raider firepower the enemy has (which, with a 750 point seer council, won't be much... Bright Lance walkers at a guess), you'll force the Seer Council to CC the tank, at which point they either fail, get burnt and then assaulted by Assault Terminators, or they succeed and still get assaulted by the Termis...

 

Redeemer sounds nice for a close-in fight like this. In our second game, the Council surrounded and charged a LRC that contained Lysander and his Hammernators. The Lysander player was very new to the game (fifth game ever, IIRC), and I thin a little overconfident int he AV14. The Council managed to Explode the LRC, which was actually lucky for the Marine player. A Wreck would have killed Lysander and his squad due to the encirclement.

 

The 750 point requirement did indeed limit the army selection. We were using an altered FOC, so he had a Falcon and a unit of Dire Avengers as the remainder of his force. Obviously, it wouldn't fly in a standard FOC build.

 

Looks like there are a LOT of things that can take down the flying Council, though.

[Grey Mage]

Isn't the Farseer not snipable in close combat, though? The Seer Council is a retinue, and therefore you can't pick the Farseer out of that squad?

No, the squad is in no way a retinue.

 

Just like a SM Captain and Command Squad in this respect.

[Koremu]

Looks like there are a LOT of things that can take down the flying Council, though.

Anything that can survive an average of 13 pre-save wounds. ICs tend to make the job easier, especially Captain, MotF and Techmarine who all benefit from the 2+ Armour save.

 

To be honest the massive Seer councils, while intimidating as hell, aren't really worth their points cost. Every turn they turbo boost is a turn they don't make their points back on, and they cost an awful lot of points.

 

Also, if it goes badly wrong then you daid.

[Jackelope King]

No on Might of the Ancients on a Librarian. Not worth it by a long shot. You usually want someone fairly bare-bones, as the Librarian's two biggest contributions, especially against Eldar, are the Psychic Hood (the other guy will start failing enough to disrupt the sheer durability of the Council) and the Null Zone (further increasing their vulnerability). Seer Councils are nasty because it just takes so darn much to hurt them. Librarians make them that much easier to hurt, and at a very low cost.

[Justicar Valius]

Grand Master, psychich hood, master crafted NFW 180

4 GKT, incinerator, 199

 

379 For that is an awseome unit against those stupid eldar, Strength 6 power weapons all round. Never leave home without 'em

[ShinyRhino]

Isn't the Farseer not snipable in close combat, though? The Seer Council is a retinue, and therefore you can't pick the Farseer out of that squad?

No, the squad is in no way a retinue.

 

Just like a SM Captain and Command Squad in this respect.

 

Oh, really? Hmmmm, then my partner bluffed his way through the entire tournament (knowingly or unknowingly). He kept claiming it was a retinue, and that opposing units (Lysander, and the LashPrince, especially) couldn't pound on the Farseer. I'll have to grab a copy of the Eldar Dex and get apage numebr to use as evidence.

 

Thanks, Grey Mage. That cuts the effectiveness of the whole unit by half.

[bystrom]

Not to mention, ICs have to move first when charged, so getting off a charge where the farseer can move in base-to-base guarantees you a shot at killing the farseer.

[Grey Mage]

Isn't the Farseer not snipable in close combat, though? The Seer Council is a retinue, and therefore you can't pick the Farseer out of that squad?

No, the squad is in no way a retinue.

 

Just like a SM Captain and Command Squad in this respect.

 

Oh, really? Hmmmm, then my partner bluffed his way through the entire tournament (knowingly or unknowingly). He kept claiming it was a retinue, and that opposing units (Lysander, and the LashPrince, especially) couldn't pound on the Farseer. I'll have to grab a copy of the Eldar Dex and get apage numebr to use as evidence.

 

Thanks, Grey Mage. That cuts the effectiveness of the whole unit by half.

Farseer entry- pg.26, no mention of a retinue. Warlock entry- pg.27 no mention of a retinue.

Armylist Entry for Farseer- pg. 60.

Warlocks: For each Farseer in the army, you may include a squad of 3-10 Warlocks (see entry below). This unit and the farseer are a single HQ choice.

 

Warlocks armylist entry- also pg. 60- Mentions the special rules "warlock powers, fleet of foot, spiritseers" and nothing else. Gives some unit options, and you can throw them in a waveserpent.

 

Seriously, 99% of the issues people have with eldar are simply a lack of knowledge of their *admittedly unusual* rules. Im sure your opponent as, most likely, simply either remembering the previous codex *where they were a retinue* or misunderstood "are a single HQ choice" and supposed it meant they were 1 unit.

[chapter master 454]

You can technically still snipe him, if he has the IC rules then he is a seperate target in CC. As for the bikes, sounds nasty but really needs to slow down with a bit of lysander and his faithful crew of my terminators. Note that lysander had to be ESCORTED off, not killed which says alot about it (I personally believe marines should be able to re-group whenever they like, they wouldn't just let some xenos scum chase them off). Lysander is like a dreadnought but better, he is the chainsaw who will steadily and at a fair enough pace chew through an enemy defense. The biker mice of ulthwan...could be a little more respectful when they run headlong into a barrage of dragonfire bolts or thunderfire cannon loving. Put mildly they mind be tough but they are the knights, they rely on busting through quickly so just give them targets they can't kill quick enough (another idea is the 'fail catch' squad. You combat squad a tactical squad and leave one squad in front of the other with otehr elites hiding behind it. The fail catch squad will easily get destroyed but they have just been left in the open for your sterngaurds to level them with dragonbolts, your thunderfire to blow them away and then finally to add a bow to it all throw in the second half and they can do jack all about it and have to sustain a second barrage of fire).

 

Eldar are tricky to catch, but when you nail their rears to the ground they just die too easily. I mean it's the fact they are cowards that they survive! (thats why I hate troops, I would rather have an army of solid 'hold the ground' units just to prove my point but no...troops are vital for some reason. Oh I know why: to gimp us marine players of our better gear...[/rant])

[templargdt]

The best counter for seer council jetbikes is this:

 

Allied Grey Knight Brother Captain (Psychic Hood, Incinerator) - 101

 

Incinerators ignore cover and invulnerable saves, STR 5/AP 4. It will kill every jetbike it touches on a 3+. Plus Psychic Hood defense against the Farseer. And you have base 3 attacks at WS 5 with a Relic Blade.

 

The look on the guys face the first time you hit the seer council with the incinerator will be worth the price of the model (and Grey Knight Terminator models are the best model in 40K IMHO.)