On Word Bearers and Worship

[The Prophet]

Hmm, I think I wasn't as clear as I'd hoped. My basic point was that the jumps between codices and game rules have a huge impact on game play and army list construction, and older rules are 'officially' invalidated by newer ones. Conversely, there is no such substitution with background, it just builds or grows previous information. [---]

 

With this I agree completely, since it is a premise of my arguments, and why I quote from older codicies that are more filled with background.

 

 

 

[---] I think I'll leave this is say that my general impression from reading background is that cult troops are parts of legions or chapters dedicated exclusively to one god, where as troops with icons were more prominent amongst the undivided legions but can certainly understand your suggestion about a particular unit having a fanatical dedication, especially for Word Bearers, and wouldn't mind in the least playing against an all Word Bearer army which included cult troops - so long as I had a way to see which squads were cults and which were icon bearers.

 

I agree that troops with marks of Khorne, Slaanesh etc. is to be found in legions exclusively dedicated to these gods. Though I believe it is common to make the logical gap B below, not realizing berzerkers can also be found elsewhere.

 

 

A

(i) He is a World Eater. --> He is a berzerker.

-------------------------------------------------

(ii) He is not a berzerker. --> He is not a World Eater. - True if (i) is true (contrapositio).

 

 

B

(i) He is a World Eater. --> He is a berzerker.

-------------------------------------------------------

(ii) He is not a World Eater --> He is not a Berzerker. - It does not follow from (i) above.

 

 

While this might be no surprise, I believe it is easy to think, that since berzerkers are more common among the WE and that the WE have no other hobbies but being angry, it would follow that berzerkers are non-existant or less angry in other legions, which is false. Berzerkers can certainly be found among the WE, but this is not the only true answer on where to find them.

 

 

(Sorry about the edit, I thought I was a bit unclear)

[Darkreaver]

this is not the only true answer

 

Its corny but

CHAOS IS THE ONLY TRUE ANSWER!

[Walter Payton]

this is not the only true answer

 

Its corny but

CHAOS IS THE ONLY TRUE ANSWER!

 

And I would love to give it as my answer in an exam...

 

Q3: Antibiotics are produced by funghi to destroy what?

 

A: CHAOS!!!!!

[sig666]

An extremely nice post, although the point is farfetched a little bit.

 

A unit of chaos space marine who marked by Khorne unequal to Khorne Berserker.

Yes they may pray or even sacrifice to khorne before battle seeking the bless of the blood god,

but that's how the ICON thing works for us in current codex, as same as what our precious "daemons of all four gods", "nine troops but all the others two", "the only chaplain among all nine traitor legions" special rules worked in 3.5ed codex.

You have to accept and use the rules shown in the current CSM codex, and abandon whatever it said in the previous codex, whether you like it or not.

 

The Alpha legion could use the cultist on table because they got a massive and very good use of them, follwing what is said in the backgroud: work behind the enemy line, incit the population before finally break out from hidding, utlizes whatever means necessary.

The Iron Warriors were all siege master, using obliterators without limit, extensive use of heavy armor including those imperial ones, all because that the fluff told us we could do these. The Night Lords has extensive use of fast things also because fluff said they are experts of terror tactics, although I think this is quite a misguide as fast strike is not the only nor best way to represent this.

Back to Word Bearers, we could use lots of daemons with various because the backgrond said we worship all four gods as whole so all the four gods love to aid us by sending those daemon things; and we could use dark apostel as our HQ only because the fluff said that(maybe from authors of index astartes I don't know, oh no, maybe it's only an idea to serve in mr.Anthony Reynolds's novels!).

 

But now, all these things gone, nobody said the same thing to us in the current codex. And I think that's why all the special ruls to represent Legions gone with it.

 

In the past three years, the only thing could help us to represent those legions is army list, and memories of course. But essentially there is completely no difference between a word bearers host and a alpha legion cell, or a black legion warband. It's quite okay IMHO, for such is the fluff(GW)'s will.

 

And the "count as" thing helps only little on restoring the old days glory,

Close combat addicts WBs count as Khorne Berserkers? Okay they could furious charge but why WS5? And where are those equipments in their heads that really turn them into Khorne Berserkers?

The WBs who praied to Nurgle bacome Plague Marines on the battle field? They may have +1 toughness but why they feel no pain? And what about the destroyer hive?

The Count As is not the right thing could help us rebuilding the fluff which we need, it's a thing blasphemed against the fluff instead.

 

What we morden CSM player should do, IMHO, is just play all the things given in the codex.

Don't be afraid of adding cult units(no matter they are cult marines or clut termis or obliterator cult)as mercemaries in your Word Bearers army, it's definitely legal and fluffy in 4th edition CSM codex, as it used to be illegal in 3.5ed codex.

 

Just let it go.

[The Prophet]

You have to accept and use the rules shown in the current CSM codex, and abandon whatever it said in the previous codex, whether you like it or not.

 

[---]

 

Back to Word Bearers, we could use lots of daemons with various because the backgrond said we worship all four gods as whole so all the four gods love to aid us by sending those daemon things; and we could use dark apostel as our HQ only because the fluff said that (maybe from authors of index astartes I don't know, oh no, maybe it's only an idea to serve in mr.Anthony Reynolds's novels!).

 

But now, all these things gone, nobody said the same thing to us in the current codex. And I think that's why all the special ruls to represent Legions gone with it.

 

[...] the only thing could help us to represent those legions is army list, and memories of course. But essentially there is completely no difference between a word bearers host and a alpha legion cell, or a black legion warband. It's quite okay IMHO, for such is the fluff(GW)'s will.

 

[---]

 

The Count As is not the right thing could help us rebuilding the fluff which we need, it's a thing blasphemed against the fluff instead.

 

 

 

If I understand your text correctly I disagree, for I believe it is a mess of confusion between rules and background. You seem to think that the background is something temporary, taken from the rules of whatever current codex there is, am I right? I would say that the 40k background is a growing body of information about things included in the imaginary universe. The background expands with new literature that covers empty holes in that universe. Sometimes the background really changes (take squats for example), but in the case of the 17th legion, nothing has changed in the background.

 

What has happened with the Word Bearers (WB) through 40k history is that from being almost ignored, more and more background has been added to paint a more detailed picture of them. Things have been added, not taken away. The rules however, is a completely different story – from having the same rules as other legions, to specific rules for WB, and now back again. To say that the WB are no different from the Alpha Legion (AL) would be true - if you only meant the rules. But it seems you also mean the background here?

 

Rules wise, they both use the same CSM codex. Background wise, there is a ton of differences. Take the Dark Apostle for example. In the current rules, he is non-existant. In the background he is the iconic leader of a WB host, preferable translated into gaming terms as a chaos lord. Another chaos lord fielded by an AL player would be identical rules wise, yes. But background wise, these two chaos lords from different legions diverge. While the AL-lord is a cunning strategist that utilise lies, stealth and confusion, the WB-lord is a religious figure, a priest that consult visions and rites for his decisions. There are similarities, yes, but the differences cannot be ignored even after a glance at their respective backgrounds.

 

I agree with you on using the rules in the CSM codex. But the rules does not tell you how to build, paint or percieve your host. It does not tell you which unit choices would be the most fitting. It does not tell you anything more than how they work in gaming terms. We don’t have to ”rebuild the fluff”, as you say, after a new codex arrives. We already have background of the WB. New background will be added as well, which is great. But a codex with lack (or very restricted amounts) of background for the WB does not mean that GW takes back everything said about the legion before.

 

To imagine the 40k universe, we use the background. To play the game, we use the rules. It should not be so difficult to imagine the 40k universe while playing the game – without confusing rules with background!

 

 

 

PS. In the case of plaguemarines and other god-specific marked units, read this thread more carefully, since you’ll have the answers above already.

[Kor Megron]

I've got to give it to you brother Prophet, this article of faith was truly rivetting, it opened my mind and made me proud to be a Word Bearer.

 

I really enjoyed your thesis, however, I've always believed in worshipping the Undivided Pantheon, which rules out single Icons or Marks belonging to a particular God.

 

You are truly an inspirational figure to me brother Prophet, and I respect your opinions, but I must politely and respectfully disagree on many levels, however I do agree with you on many others.

 

Best Regards,

~ Kor Megron

[The Prophet]

I've got to give it to you brother Prophet, this article of faith was truly rivetting, it opened my mind and made me proud to be a Word Bearer.

 

I really enjoyed your thesis, however, I've always believed in worshipping the Undivided Pantheon, which rules out single Icons or Marks belonging to a particular God.

 

You are truly an inspirational figure to me brother Prophet, and I respect your opinions, but I must politely and respectfully disagree on many levels, however I do agree with you on many others.

 

Best Regards,

~ Kor Megron

 

 

 

Thank you,

 

On the first matter of pantheons, we agree, for I also believe that the WB worship a pantheon. What I don't understand is your further conclusion on marks and icons, since - in the bleak reality outside of 40k - pantheistic religions usually behave as with the greek and roman ones, as I described above. The concept of pantheism is not any differently defined in the 40k background, so one would assume it's to be understood as pantheism in real world. God-specific icons and worship are a large part of real pantheisms - so why not in 40k?

 

The question of marks can't of course be compared in the same manner since we would both then have to agree upon the truth of the dogmas of a certain pantheism. What I argue about marks is that they are given by the Gods, more likely in an individual manner, rather than that Khorne, Slaanesh and all the others comes friendly together to work on a mark or ascension.

 

Though I disagree, I respect your opinion too.

 

/The Prophet

[jon23516]

In most cases, there are Codicies which provide the fluffy rules to "properly" field fluffy armies; i.e. all the chapter-specific characters in C:SM which unlock chapter-specific "traits".

 

I feel that when there is no codex which provides the rule mechanics to represent fluffy armies then we should feel free to head down the "counts as" route as long as it is crystal clear to the opponent.

 

Case-in-point, I am starting a Word Bearer's force after reading the Dark Apostle. (might have to stop reading 40k novels because I can't possibly start a new army every time I read a new book...)

 

I considered using C:SM so I could actually use a "chaplain" for Dark Apostle Marduk, but since the novels specifically discuss Khalaxis and his Bezerkers, and Burias as a Possessed.

 

Thus I'm choosing to keep my Word Bearer force using the C:CSM.

 

Unit of Bezerkers, with the Bezerker Champion being Khalaxis

Unit of Possessed, lead by Burias

Chaos Lord with daemon weapon to represent Marduk and his daemon-chainsword

Chaos Lord in Termie armor to represent Kol Badar, plus unique weapons: lightning claw and combi-melta

4 chaos terminators to represent The Anointed, "retinue" for Kol Badar

Two 10-man CSM squads as Namar-sin's 217th coterie and Sabtec's 13th Coterie.

 

I feel that Dark Apostle Marduk should be able to do his "chaplain" thing with a fiery speech of "rah rah, kick some ass!" and make his coterie's fight with more fervor. By what rule mechanic can I make this possible? I have Icons of Slannesh through my force. Are they worshiping slannesh? Not really, but it provides a rule mechanic to represent how I feel they should fight. These Icons also provide a rule mechanic I want for Cultists (as described in the Dark Apostle novels)

 

The novels describe Dark Apostle Marduk and his Word Bearers making use of Cultists in various ways. Including how they would/could appear from nowhere, as if instant turncoats of Imperial society? or appearing out of hidden positions on a battle field? So I will use Summoned Lessor Daemons to represent the rule mechanic to make this possible.

 

Word Bearer's fight their battles with Cultists "appearing where needed" because of the Icons throughout the army.

 

------

 

How to represent Night Lords? As I've already read in other threads, what codex will let me represent scoring "Raptors" and give me a fast assaulty army? C:BA for the win.

 

How to represent Soul Drinkers? (yep, from the novels) Again C:BA but picking and choosing different options to represent Soul Drinkers than Night Lords.