Bike List

[Br.Pat]

I've almost finished my double land-raider army which I'm quite happy with. Whilst I want to play a few games/tournaments with it, I feel that I eventually will need to construct a new army to mix things up a bit. I'm thinking of a bike heavy list after I get bored with my current build. Which is why I want to ask you guys a few questions:

 

1) How competitive is an all bike list?

2) Is it preferable to use some sort of bike hybrid list with maybe 3 Bike Squads then some Heavy Support, Elites etc?

3) What are its strengths and weaknesses?

 

Any input will be much appreciated!

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I'm not a big fan of them. some swear that they're tournamant material but whenever I come across one its more like a speed bump

 

I think they're gimmicks :lol:

[BrotherAtrox]

Bikes provide mobility and firepower that is rarely seen elsewhere in the Marine Codex - for a decent price.

 

If you want my full thoughts on it: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...showarticle=417

[gettothegone]

Most people who see bikes put on a table consider them a road bump. Most people who see a properly tuned bike list on the table and consider it a road bump walk away massacred.

 

Pros

 

- Nobody expects them to be good.

- T5 everywhere makes it very resilient to small arms fire.

- 3+ invulns at your discretion makes it resilient to low AP weapons.

- Command Squads take all of the above, and now add FNP.

- Command Squads can and WILL tackle most things you throw them at. This includes Assault Terms, INSIDE a Raider.... this will cause people to cry cheese.

- Fast as all get out, which lets you control the game.

- Truely tactical army as far as I'm concerned, makes the most out of terrain.

- Dual special weapons on fast units make everything a good tank killer.

- 4 Melta guns in a 5 man squad ain't bad!

 

 

 

Cons

 

- Model count is something left to be desired, command squads quickly get into the 500pt range if you're going big game hunting.

- Khan isn't as good as most people think. The urge to use him will be high, but pound for pound captains are tougher, and will wound more.*

- The urge to outflank will be incredible. While its better then losing a tank by entering the wrong side.... you're still making up ground and getting shot. This is bad. Khan bad.

- Very vulnerable to dice strike units such as Drop Pods, Dakka Preds, Dakka Dreds.

- Tank shocking troops is bad, this makes melta's a requirement.

- Driving through terrain is also a very bad move.

- LASH makes for a very long game should you keep getting thrown into terrain.

- Needs support by fast units. Mixing speed and Mech takes mobility away from one, or firepower away from the other. Speeders are king here, but at the cost of durability.

- $$$

 

 

* By wounding more, I assume the captain is a SS/Relic captain.

[merc3065]

1 more con, objectives on level 2 or 3 make it impossible for bikes to get to them.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Hmmm, pros and cons....

 

What about a combo mech/bike?

 

Identify the main problems with a bike list and see how you can cover them with a bit of mechanisation. My mech core of HQ + 2xtroops comes to about 650pts depending on tooling. My other support elements and hammer units make up the rest. I have played around with a bike command squad with plamsa guns and it gets expensive real quick but if you were just to take the captain and stick him with another squad you get more bikes at the expense of tooled command squad which can be removed with one good demolisher shell anyways.

 

Bikes are fast and very tactical and a few MM attack bikes are just plain awesome for 50pts a pop! As a general rule a mech list benefits from having bikes in it and I see no reason that a bike list wouldn't benefit from having a couple of dreads or preds.

 

Anywhoo, the main tactic for a full bike list I have been mooting in my head is to send the MM attack bikes out to pop enemy tanks (especially those LR and Vindis) then use superior maneuverability to hack at where the enemy are weakest and take them apart piecemeal. You are not really that more durable against small arms fire as transports are impervious and once they are dealt with you will still be outnumbered but you will be able to keep out of the way of monsterous units.

 

I think a bike list has great potential but I think I'm going to try and swap out my meched tacs for bikes and see how I do first before dropping all my tanks.

[Grey Mage]

Bikes can be very competitive... but a biker list isnt just bikes.

 

A fleshed out 10 man bike squad runs around 300pts, or about 70 more than your average rhino mounted tactical squad. Its alot faster, and significantly tougher... and only gives up 1 KP. Its more vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry however. Firepower actually goes up a little, as you can have a heavy weapon and two specials at that price.

 

Scouts in a Landspeeder Storm should be considered as another troops choice. Theyre fast, they can reach higher objectives, and they can get off first turn assaults to to take out artillery and heavy weapon teams... for 160pts they also help mitigate the Bikers pricetag.

 

Heavy Support choice are often lacking in bike lists... but good choices include Whirlwinds to give you an anti-horde edge, Standard Landraiders for some reliable anti-tank, and plasmacannon devastators for taking out enemy elite infantry.

 

Of course, other good support elements include- Mounted Sterngaurd, Landspeeders, Attack bike squads, and Predators.

 

Lastly, you need good solid assault elements- at lower point values an HQ can make the difference- Captain on a bike with a relicblade is pretty cheap for its killyness, and a Librarian on a bike makes an excellant support unit for the squad and provides psychic defense for the army- darn those lash lists anyways.

 

At 1500pts Id take 2 full bike squads, captain, libbie, scouts in a storm, scouts in a landraider and a whirlwind as an example.

[ShinyRhino]

I personally use Dreadnaughts to compliment my bikers. The wise, old, entombed ones can put out S10 close combat hits, and some reliable antitank fire. I always splurge on the Venerable versions, for the improved Ws/BS, and Venerable rerolls.

 

I'm working on a Predator soon, to see how one of those compliments the two mech'd tac squads I roll alongside my bikers.

[Jackelope King]

Bikes are a nasty option, but difficult to get a handle on. My bike army got stomped on the first few times I used it. It takes finesse: you're basically playing a shooty army that is pretty tough and pretty fast, but very low in model-count.

 

Up to about 2000 points, I feel the way to go is smaller bike squads spamming special weapons (especially meltaguns). 4-5 bikes + an attack bike give you two or three ablative wounds before you start shedding important models. Above that, while I personally find them unwieldy, you need to have at least one max-sized bike squad. There's just too much enemy firepower above 2000 points for a 5-man bike squad to survive.

 

A bike command squad is a terrifying, terrifying close-combat machine. In a team game vs. Orks and Imperial Guard, my bike command squad in a turn and a half killed a Leman Russ, wiped out a full Infantry Squad, a full 30-man squad of Ork Boyz (making large mobs fearless absolutely cripples them in close-combat against a fast squad like the Bike Command Squad), and reduced an Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons squad to 1 team. And took no casualties in return (S3 against T5 with a 3+ save and FNP... hahaha no... admittedly, knowing how to multicharge helps a LOT, as does having fearless Ork Boyz mobs to target... nothing beats dishing out about 12 unsaved wounds, and then watching 10 more orks die to failed Fearless saves). That said, it's an expensive unit. If you decide against them, I'd fully vote for bumping even at 2000 points one squad up to full size and have your captain ride with them.

 

As for support, you have a few options. Speeders naturally lend themselves to this list (either Typhoon or HF/MM... I appreciate the value of both, but since my Sergeants don't get combiflamers, I like having 3x heavy flamer templates available). But don't neglect your Heavy Support or Elites slots! Dakka Predators and Rifleman Dreads provide a reliable, tough firebase who can blow enemy units off of upper-floor objectives and open up enemy transports.

 

For a second HQ, my personal preference is for a Librarian on a bike (cheap and lets your Command Squad utterly squash most other rock-hard units). But there's plenty of validity to taking a second Captain and another Bike Command Squad, and I even like taking a Bike Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer and then 6x Rifleman Dreads. More pricey, but that's a lot of reliable firepower.

 

After you build the list (and warning: BIKE LISTS ARE EXPENSIVE TO BUILD... learn to love the Ravenwing box), you need to learn to learn how to use the list. Learn how to weave around terrain. Learn how to judge your distances very carefully, and know when to Turbo Boost and when to risk shooting. My rule of thumb of there is to turbo boost unless you can rapid fire with at least 3 bolters or at least 2 melta weapons are in range to fire. Expect to lose your first few games. But once you get used to it, and know what your squads can do reliably, you'll be in good shape.

[Sanctjud]

The Ravenwing Box is nice, but also beware: lack of special weapons in that box. IMO sucks balls.

Attack bIkes are GOLD, they are also expensive as well.

 

My alternative: mounted space marines :D

_________

 

As described, it's a win big/lose big army, mostly due to lower model count and the 'finesse' needed to make the most of it.

It is 100% a water army and should be played that way.

 

-Sanct.

[Koremu]

I'd go with;

 

Bike Captain/Command Squad

Full Bike Squad

Tactical Squad in Rhino

Vindicator

Predator

Land Speeders or Attack Bikes

 

Basically using the Bikers as outriders for a Mechanised force.

 

By the bye, there is little point outflanking with a Bike Squad, unless you are trying to force your opponent to hug the centreline.

[FlamingDeth]

I run bike armies more often than not. With a tactical squad, I have trouble pinning down what role they're actually filling besides "being scoring units". With bikes though, toss them a few meltaguns, and suddenly they're incredible anti-tank that just happen to be scoring units when you need them. You don't even have to hold them back and entrench them, you can just turboboost to an objective in turn 5.

 

For support I normally bring at least two vindicators and at least four typhoon speeders. Both of them are extremely versatile units who will only run out of targets once your opponent is tabled. I normally also bring along a librarian, using vortex of doom and null zone -- between those and his psychic hood chances are high that he's going to be useful for something regardless of opponent, and he synergizes well with a squad of melta bikes.

 

I did try out Grey Mage's LSS/scouts idea today in a couple 1500pt games. While they weren't super useful in the list, and I think I would have been better off shuffling things around for another speeder and a whirlwind, I think they might secure a place in my 1750 lists. Just have to be a bit conservative with it, since it's even more fragile than regular speeders.

[ShinyRhino]

By the bye, there is little point outflanking with a Bike Squad, unless you are trying to force your opponent to hug the centreline.

 

I agree with this. I took Khan to a tournament ONCE, and will never do so again. Teh only use I can see for outflanking bikers is in a multiple-objective game where an objective has been placed on each side of the board. You can use a last turn turbo-boost to claim or contest one of these. The tactical is so dependent on a series of fortunate dice rolls that 's foolish. You have ot both arrive on the proper turn, and on the proper side to make it work.

Bike lists are already short on bodies, so when you start mass outflanking, it's no problem for the opponent to hang out on the centreline, because you lack the units to threaten it.

 

Khan also stinks in close combat when compared to a captain with relic blade. The captain has the S6 relic blade, where Khan has an extra attack from his bolt pistol, and can ID things when rolling a 6 to wound. I rolled a six to wund a Warboss on Bike in TWO separate turns, only to have the green bastard make both his invulnerable saves. Against line troops, the ability is overkill.

Khan does have the Hit and Run rule, which is nice for removing yourself from combat to get off another charge on your own turn. Best used by a Command Squad, though, since they can spec for close combat, where normal bikers cannot.

[Koremu]

Khan in a Command Squad is nasty.

 

Command Squad, Bikes, Company Champion, Veteran with Company Banner and Thunder Hammer, Veteran with Storm Shield, Veteran with Melta Bombs, Apothecary = 285 points.

 

Khan and the Champion are 3+ to hit most targets including MEQ, S5, I5 (6 for Khan) with 9 Power Weapon Attacks between them. That's 4 dead MEQ right there.

[Rage]

There's a lot of Khan bashing here, I'll admit he's not the super powered killing machine I'd like him to be but at the same time he ain't bad, the fact he gets 5 x S5 I6 attacks on the charge is still pretty tasty. It's his squad buffs that I find useful, Hit&Run and Furious Charge for a full bike squad boosts their assault powers no end.

 

The Command Squad doesn't need him so much as they have enough kick to destroy pretty much whatever they run into...though I do attach my Librarian here and give him Null Zone and Might of the Ancients for the fun of destroying tanks/dreads/MC's...pretty much anything I can think off.

 

The outflank rule is a bit of a funny one, I would not for a moment consider putting any of the main elements of the army into outflank, just because the dice should be treated as your enemey and you should leave as little as possible down to them. On the other hand I have been using it as a safe haven for my main objective grabbing troops choices (2 x 5 Bikers w/ MB). They're cheap for the durability they have and when I say durability I mean that in addition to the 3+/T5, they also gain protection from not being on the table e.g. if you go 2nd they will miss 2 turns of shooting before they even have a chance of being put under fire.

 

They can also tie up firebase units for a bit if required or blow up a tank...just don't send it near anything with a powerfist or high S powerweapon in it, 5 bikes wont last very long if they get caught by that!

 

A Librarian is a must I reckon, Lash lists and any any other lists that have nasty psychic powers will ruin your day otherwise.

 

I'm tending to move away from Meltaguns on Bike Squads these days as they can usually just assault any vehicle that they come across and with decent positioning you can trap the squad inside a transport and wipe out the whole lot.

 

I've gone with;

 

Khan w/ Bike

Librarian w/Bike

Command Squad w/ CompChamp, PF, LC, SS x 2, Red Shirt (Libby)

8 Bike Squad w/ PF, 2 x Meltagun (Khan)

5 Bike Squad w/ MB

5 Bike Squad w/ MB

2 MM AB's

2 MM AB's

3 HB AB's

 

I am tempted to replace one of the small bike squads with a scout squad in a Storm for capturing the objectives in buildings or attacking that annoying LandRaider first turn or even using the Storm to keep deepstrikers away from my main force by scattering them away. Or maybe as a Telion Sniper platform to pick off high value targets before bombing onto an objective (target priorities usally mean this unit gets left alone for a good chunk while they deal with the CS and BS).

[ShinyRhino]

That's a nifty list, Rage.

Why no upgrades on the sergeants, and no special weapons, though?

I've decided I need a bike Librarian, too. There's a new wave fo Chaos Marines with dual Lash coming up at my local shop, as well as a couple of Eldrad-loving elf players.

I really like plasmaguns on bikes lately. They outperform my meltagun squad quite often, as people see the meltaguns and multimelta, freak out, and pour fire into them.

[Koremu]

A Techmarine on a Bike would be a good upgrade to a Khan Command Squad, without requiring a HQ slot.

[Sanctjud]

If by TM you mean TM, Harness, Bike, PW?

The problem is that it is not cost effective. It's 125 points. That could have been a Mortis Dreadnought with 2 TL Autocannons.

 

I think it's a fun option.

 

I've run Khan, Full Troop Biker Squad, Chappy, 3 Techmarines as a Big Uber squad at 1250 for kicks.

The model count is crazy scary for my tastes. :D

[gettothegone]

I mentioned this before in another thread.

 

If you give Khan a Librarian, and you make the librarian an Epistolary with Might / Null Zone, that Librarian is now swinging I5 S7 attacks into a unit that has to reroll all invulns.... since the only thing that swings that should have a normal save should be an apothacary, it can seriously ruin assault terminator days.

 

The combo is expensive, and you can pick the Libby out in combat, which is never good. But the odds are, you're going to facestomp whatever you point that at before they get to swing. This includes people who want to throw walkers at your group. S7+2D6 pens at I5 will also be pretty exceptional when BA get ahold of their codex....

 

This also gives you 2 instant deaths should Khan or the Libby wound, either on 6s from Korsarro, or a Psychic test from the librarian.

 

Also gives you hood should you come up against lash / eldar council. If you shut down a fortune on a council... you're allowed to giggle like a girl when you beat Eldar at their own game.

[Rage]

Why no upgrades on the sergeants, and no special weapons, though?

 

What's the point, I don't want them on the board until the end game so why throw points at them and if they do come one early...well in that case they'll be powersliding their butts all over the board staying away from trouble, again they don't need nifty gear. My only exception to the rule is if a tank is close to the edge and is just asking to be assaulted or if a 5 man Dev squad or Tau Battlesuits are causing me a pain at which point I'll just tar pit them with the squad. No PW's and few attacks = tarpit....and even then that'll be mainly only in Kill point games.

 

Basically I keep them cheap else I might forget their purpose and start trying to do really silly stuff with them and completely ruin my plan

 

If you give Khan a Librarian, and you make the librarian an Epistolary with Might / Null Zone, that Librarian is now swinging I5 S7 attacks into a unit that has to reroll all invulns.... since the only thing that swings that should have a normal save should be an apothacary, it can seriously ruin assault terminator days.

 

I probably wouldn't bother with MotA here myself, S5 is probably ample enough, the extra points for the extra Str boost seems excessive IMO.

 

Null Zone is an absolute must take with the number of units being bandied about with lots of INV saves. The only issue I have with the Libby is his ability to go squit really easily, the lack of I5 is the biggest issue I have with him...the FnP is rather handy in that it gives him some protection against lots of basic attacks he just has to be kept away from anything with a Power type weapon else he is toast....just make sure you initiate and then try to position him on the edge.

 

As for Techmarines...I would be tempted by a Master of the Forge on a bike with a conversion beamer and attach him to the HB AB's, at the range they fire at he has the same AP and a blast template for some some serious anti-horde plus the servo-harness will give them a chance in assault. It is a rather expensive option and you would lose the Libby though...so not ideal. Definitely something I'd try out in a friendly game if I knew I was playing Tau or Orks.