Blood Claw Discussion

[Kenmichi]

I know we've had a few Blood Claw discussions in various threads but I'd like to get a little and concise thread for a short term discussion, a "topic of the week" sort of thing on Blood Claws.

 

In the 3E codex even with WS/BS 3 Blood Claws were very viable because of their hidden and cheap power fists. We lost that advantage and can now take one power fist or power weapon and ironically now have access to 2 special ranged weapons (Aren't Blood Claws supposed to be close combat monsters eager to prove themselves?). Thirdly the only way to take advantage of the free weapon we have to take fifteen models. Grey Hunters have access to all the same upgrades, have better WS/BS, über grit with bolters, and can do it in less models for the same price. Not to mention transport options are so much easier for Grey Hunters over Blood Claws, I'm honestly shocked that Blood Claws can't have a dedicated Land Raider transport as an option if led by a Wolf Guard/IC.

 

However, Blood Claws do have a distinct advantage over most other troop choices in the entire game, numbers. A 15 strong BC pack without any upgrades costs 225 points and has a whopping 60 attacks on the charge, 45 when counter-attacking, and that's not including pack upgrades, a wolf guard, and a pretty much the ever-essential Wolf Priest. A standard loadout Wolf Priest gives the pack an additional 4 attacks that ignore armor saves, and most importantly when used with preferred enemy allows re-rolls on to hit rolls and to wound, thanks to this lovely ability all re-rolled hits can then re-roll failed wounds since they are two separate rolls ("may not re-roll a re-roll" does not apply). Additionally for a mere 10 points the Wolf Priest can designate Infantry through Oath of War then allow Saga of the Beastslayer to open up their options to MC hunting. A single pack of this magnitude would cost a mere 335 points and dole out 64 attacks on the charge with re-rolls to hit and wound, 49 attacks when charged (Ld 10 Fearless Wolf Priest should ideally hardly fail a Ld test), and the whole pack is Fearless. That's pretty :): incredible for that cost and how much it offers as a single hammer unit. In terms of cost and equal effectiveness you'd need to spend upwards of 700 points in Wolf Guards and Heroes to get that much power.

 

Here's where the major problem comes in. A unit with this much power would REQUIRE a transport, it would be an utter waste to take a pack this powerful and foot slog them, your opponent would focus fire them with pie plates because of how potentially frightening it can be. A Land Raider, the only capable transport, would cost an additional 250 points bringing the cost up to 585, expensive but still cheaper than a comparable pack. And remember this is a bare bones pack, the only upgrade taken is Saga of the Beastslayer, but that upgrade is useful only when facing armies with T5+ units. Though honestly with WS3 units even with T5+ attack re-rolls (only to hit rolls) and 64 rolls to make, probably less than half will hit so it may be best to keep the pack at 325 and hunt infantry and you should probably have better suited anti-T5 packs anyway. But then again, most T5+ models have at most 3-4 wounds so having to make 25 or so wound rolls he would then probably have to make 10-15 armor saves, and the Wolf Priest has 4 that ignore.

 

However, with Grey Hunter overall superiority (Wolf Standards, same options for less, MotW, über grit with bolters, better transport options) are Blood Claws even worth taking? 64 attacks with hit and wound re-rolls is amazing, but because they need a Wolf Priest and Land Raider to maximize their effectiveness you have a 575 point Troop Choice, that's crazy! For the same price you can take 2 and a half Grey Hunter units in transports with upgrades and a Wolf Guard pushing out just as many attacks and are spread out evenly rather than consolidated into one pack.

 

Here's my situation with my Wolf army. Like most of you I love the Space Wolf background, the theme, the play style- it fits me and I love how the 5E codex turned Grey Hunters into arguably the best Troops in the game, their versatility is unmatched. When I started writing my 5E list I decided on two things that I plan on sticking to no matter what: 1) Maximize Troop Choices and potential, and 2) Mechanized Great Company. To combine the two I have made six GH packs in Rhinos with some essential upgrades and some have Wolf Guards in order to make three sets of specialized packs (two tank/MC heavy hitting packs, two infantry killing packs, two objective sitting packs). These are my core units, they support each other and act as the anvil to my hammer. My hammer is my Wolf Lord, Arjac, and four more Wolf Guards in TDA in a Land Raider Crusader. To support all of them I have two Vindicators, a Whirlwind, a Dreadnought, Wolf Scouts, and I'll be working on a couple Land Speeders to round the tank hunting and to maximize armor usage.

 

The issue I'm pondering is my Hammer. It's nearly 800 points between the 5 Wolves in TDA, Lord, and LRC. It's very expensive but is very effective in terms of survivability and killing power. 2+ armor saves all around with 3x5+, 1x4+, and 2x3+ invulnerable saves, 8xStr 8 attacks, 5xStr 10, and 11 at initiative with re-rolls (Wolf Claws) all on the charge. Less than half as many attacks but with more power, greater WS, and lots of re-rolls (WTNs, Wolf Claws).

 

As mentioned before a Blood Claw pack of comparable output is 300 points cheaper, has more models, and universal Hit/Wound re-rolling and every attack is at Str 4, at initiative. Strength in numbers is a truly daunting fact especially when working with a high number of power armored troops whose sole desire is to shove this axe into your face cavity.

 

While my current Hammer will be more effective consistently against tougher units a full Blood Claw pack led by a Wolf Priest can potentially be just as effective because of the larger numbers, so is the issue, then, survivability? A Blood Claw pack with that much power will destroy most non-elite units it runs into first round leaving them open and vulnerable. Because my Hammer doesn't put out a great deal of attacks depending on the unit it assaults it may stay locked in combat but if it wins it has a better chance of sustaining fire at range. A 575 point Blood Claw pack that assaults and wipes out a 200 point troop choice becomes vulnerable to a pie plate from a 150 point Leman Russ.

 

What does the community think?

[Vash113]

I personally choose Blood Claws over Terminators in a Crusader any day. I have actually have 2 15 man Blood Claw units in my army with a Wolf Guard attatched to bring them to 16, each unit has 2 flamers and a power weapon with a power fist on the Wolf Guard.

 

I now have a Crusader for each unit to ride around in and can swap out the 2nd Flamer model for a Wolf Priest.

 

The greatest advantage to Blood Claws is that they are highly unexpected and are capable versus both horde enemies and tough enemies where Terminators are really best against tougher enemies and can't squish a lot of Ork Boyz as easily. Most opponents when they see me put the Crusader down are expecting 5 Terminators with a Terminator HQ or something similar and are totally unprepared when a veritable horde of Blood Claws come pouring out of the tank to tear into them. It works like a charm and hasn't failed me yet.

 

When I run an infantry heavy army the Blood Claws form solid blocks of troops that prove resilient and tough to get rid of, backed up by multiple large squads of Grey Hunters. Either way the Blood Claws are a solid and potent option.

 

Like with the Black Templars Crusader squads, I like to make use of the larger size of Blood Claw packs to put down units that are quite a bit bigger than most people are used to dealing with when facing Marines.

[Hfran Morkai]

I'm a fan of Blood Claws of all varieties.

 

They're specialists as opposed to the generalists we get with the Grey Hunters.

 

I plan on taking a huge unit in my Ground-Pounding Force simply to throw lots of bodies onto the table with lots of attacks, attach a Wolf Priest for Fearless, Preferred Enemy and more power weapon attacks and a WG with fist and we're rolling.

 

They'll still hit a SM Captain on a 4+, sure they get hit harder by Marines but with a bucket of attacks it's not too shabby. Meltaguns in the packs are epic, I blew up a Chimera the other day and assaulted the contents making me happy, just for the opportunity to roll lots of dice.

 

Most importantly I find them fun to use.

[Kenmichi]

You bring up a good point, the unexpected effectiveness of Blood Claws can be very astounding against all types of armies. Your setup, however, forces you to use up 2 HS choices for Land Raiders. Most players have trouble utilizing a single Land Raider in standard games, but two? What size games do you typically play and what else do you take, I don't know if I've read one of your army lists before. And how long do they typically last in your average game?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

They're specialists...

 

That has always struck me as odd, given they are supposed to be the impetuous and brash youths; why make them a focal point of a battle plan when at times they can be almost uncontrollable seems beyond me.

[Hfran Morkai]

They're specialists...

 

That has always struck me as odd, given they are supposed to be the impetuous and brash youths; why make them a focal point of a battle plan when at times they can be almost uncontrollable seems beyond me.

 

They're specialists in the form of being infuriated with the desire to prove themselves. They're not particularly skilled they just have a penchant for throwing around their chainswords.

 

I don't make them a focal point of my plan but I love the idea of them leading the charge with a Wolf Priest bellowing orders at them and teaching them how to pull the trigger.

[TiguriusX]

You bring up a good point, the unexpected effectiveness of Blood Claws can be very astounding against all types of armies. Your setup, however, forces you to use up 2 HS choices for Land Raiders. Most players have trouble utilizing a single Land Raider in standard games, but two? What size games do you typically play and what else do you take, I don't know if I've read one of your army lists before. And how long do they typically last in your average game?

 

 

Buy WG and have them buy the LR

[Vash113]

You bring up a good point, the unexpected effectiveness of Blood Claws can be very astounding against all types of armies. Your setup, however, forces you to use up 2 HS choices for Land Raiders. Most players have trouble utilizing a single Land Raider in standard games, but two? What size games do you typically play and what else do you take, I don't know if I've read one of your army lists before. And how long do they typically last in your average game?

 

Well I just said I had two, not that I regularly use them in smaller games. For the most part my 1500 point list looks something like this:

 

Wolf Guard Battle Leader

-Runic Armor, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Storm Shield, Frost Blade, Saga of the Warrior Born.

 

Wolf Priest

-Runic Armor, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Saga of the Beastslayer

 

5 Wolf Scouts

-Melta Gun

-Wolf Guard with Power Fist

 

14 Blood Claws

-Power Weapon, Flamer

-Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power Fist

 

9 Grey Hunters

-Power Fist, Melta Gun

-Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power Fist

-Rhino APC

 

8 Grey Hunters

-Power Fist, Melta Gun

-Wolf Guard Pack Leader, Power Fist

-Rhino APC

 

Land Raider Crusader

 

The army works fairly well, the Grey Hunters providing solid forward moving support units and have proven quite capable of capturing objectives and holding them while the Wolf Scouts and Blood Claws generally set their sights on something important looking in the enemy army and set about causing as much havoc and destruction as they possibly can. Once the Crusader gets the Blood Claws close to their target it follows suit and just causes a big pain in the rear to the enemy, the Assault Cannons and Multi-Melta threatening anything tough or armored in the area and the Hurricane Bolters forcing infantry to duck. Works quite well and the Crusader has managed to survive in at least 50% of my games, and succeeds in droping off the Blood Claws and causing havoc 90% of the time.

 

When I feel like being especially irritable or the points are bumped up to 2000 I bring the other Crusader full of Blood Claws. Yea they take up a lot of points but dealing with 2 Land Raiders is difficult without bringing Melta-Weapons to bear and when they get in range of such weapons then the Blood Claws are close enough to pile out and start hacking things apart. They make a surprisingly effective shock assault force.

[littlbitz]

I use a pack in nearly every game, but I follow a different philosophy than most.

 

I keep mine dirt cheap.

 

I take a pack of 7 with a Power weapon and a Flamer, toss them in a Rhino Transport, their Pack Leader has a Fist and a Storm Bolter making the unit 8 strong total.

 

That comes in at a measly 181 points for the whole pack. They are typically used in support of my 2 Grey Hunter packs, and objective grabbing they rarely fail me ever.

[stinkenheim]

A standard loadout Wolf Priest gives the pack an additional 4 attacks that ignore armor saves, and most importantly when used with preferred enemy allows re-rolls on to hit rolls and to wound, thanks to this lovely ability all re-rolled hits can then re-roll failed wounds since they are two separate rolls ("may not re-roll a re-roll" does not apply). Additionally for a mere 10 points the Wolf Priest can designate Infantry through Oath of War then allow Saga of the Beastslayer to open up their options to MC hunting.

 

preferred enemy only allows re-rolls to hit, not on the wound rolls.

also saga of the beastslayer only affects the character with the saga so the squad wouldn't be any moe effective at MC hunting than normal.

i may not have understood what you meant by the above quote so if i have could you please explain what you meant, thanks.

 

as for my personal take on bloodclaws, i use them in one of two ways. as a psycholgical threat, at the head of my force. noone likes 15 marines charging towards them so they get a lot of attention. if i'm playing a more defensive game then they hang back i charge them into fights to tip it in my favour.

very occasionally they get used as a bomb squad, if i see a hard enemy unit advancing towards me that i can't get enough firepower directed at for whatever reason they charge in and cause as much damage as possible. maybe surviving that round of combat to give me time to reorganize my lines or bring some big guns to bear.

[Raulmichile]

Blood Claws do have their uses although they ceased to be the nobrainer choice for HtH they were before. I normally use one 8-9 man Rhino mounted squad with WolfPriest of WG and employ them as shock troops or as counterassault unit; always supporting the Grey Hunters. Personally I would price them 14 pts but hey, there is not so much difference anyway.

[Stormshrug]

I'm of the opinion that they're alright but ultimately underwhelming. The extra power fist was really helpful, and without it, I find it hard to justify using them instead of Grey Hunters. But Grey Hunters are awesome for their cost. I still run a squad of Blood Claws because I *have* a squad of Blood Claws (in a Rhino with a Wolf Guard, of course). The free Flamer is a nice option for them, but again, Grey Hunters essentially have the same option without the downside of WS3.

 

Pros: -1 more attack on the charge per model, presumably 1 more special weapon attack (PW or PF)

 

Cons: -Easier to hit

-Less likely to hit some models

-No Bolters

 

With a Wolf Priest granting them Preferred Enemy, I could see them being pretty solid, but otherwise they're just not the must-haves that they used to be in the 3rd Ed. Codex (due more to Grey Hunter buffs than Blood Claw nerfs). They're far from "bad," though.

 

-Stormshrug

[Wispy]

Certainly better then Codex assault marines.

 

I don't lead them up front, though! their job is counter assault and support the grey hunters if they get stuck in though assault..

[Emperor's Scourge]

I haven't seen a reason to take a Blood Claw squad + LRC when I could just get more Grey Hunters who will be more effective overall.

[Mithril hound]

A blood claw is 15pts a sky claw is 18pts. Those 2 extra points make him fast enuff to get to a tau gunline, so thus sky claws make blood claws obsolete.

[Sarapham]

A blood claw is 15pts a sky claw is 18pts. Those 2 extra points make him fast enuff to get to a tau gunline, so thus sky claws make blood claws obsolete.

 

3 extra points.

 

And say you have a unit of 10, then the 30 points you save with regular BC goes to a rhino, which evens out movement.. so the question comes to whether you want that extra armored wound/Protection, or slightly more mobility.

 

I agree that I prefer Sky or Swiftclaws, but I dont think the speed is the main issue

[Mithril hound]

Well i did refer to tau, so yes it is a speed thing.

[alphalupine]

I would take Blood Claws if they kept their +2 attack bonus on the countercharge. As they are now, well Grey Hunters do it better...

[Grey Mage]

Here's my situation with my Wolf army. Like most of you I love the Space Wolf background, the theme, the play style- it fits me and I love how the 5E codex turned Grey Hunters into arguably the best Troops in the game, their versatility is unmatched.

*blinks*

 

Grey Hunters have been the Best troops choice in the game with unmatched versatility for over a decade. The 5th ed book just made them cheaper, and traded some hacky for some shooty.

 

Anyways, for "Hammer" units, I often run without them entirely. I find that units with a consistant ability to produce results are often better than an overwhelming show of force.

 

15BCs, LRC, WP, all with basic equipment runs just under 700pts. For that price you get 3 Mounted GH squads, and possibly a whirlwind if you took upgrades.

 

Is it worth it? Sometimes.

 

And I think thats the problem with BCs for most folk- GHs are always worth it... BCs? "sometimes".

 

Because unlike other "horde" units in the game theyre not a single pt cheaper than the "quality" units we have to snag by comparison. I blame a few tournament metagamers who ran nothing but maxed out bloodclaw squads and a six strong GH pack the last year or two before our update. The funny part I find was that even then I found GHs persistantly outpreformed BCs and were more adaptable... but atleast then BCs were much better shock troops than anything else you could field for equal points- so if you really need shock troops you could take them.

 

Now? 15 BCs with a Powerfist and a pair of flamers is 250pts. For 280pts I can get 10 WG with PWs.... and mount them in a standard LR instead of a Crusader... wich is a nice option. For 20pts, I can add in a pair of powerfists, getting double the S8 attacks I would have had with the BCs. The best part? WG ALSO get 4 attacks on the charge, but with a higher WS and every single one ignoring armor... for 50pts.

 

Wow.

[Grimtooth]

I take BC as a psychological weapon. They always seem to just raise hell on the board and if it causes any stress to an opponent when he starts mentally adding up number of attacks I am pretty happy with that cause and effect.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Psycological reasons mostly. But they also make great bodyguard units as there is just so meny of them.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Quantity has a quality of its own and all that.

 

Yes, GH are much more versatile, but a pack of 15 BCs under a WGPL is hard to shift off an objective and can take some big hits as it trots across the board.

 

I've had a pack take two demolisher hits and the fire power of an IG platoon using front rank fire etc., and still make it into combat. Okay there was only two and the BL left, but they were enough to win the combat, cause a morale fail and then chase down the remainder.

 

If nothing else they keep a fair proportion of an enemy's army busy whilst you are doing other things.