Old Player, New Rules

[tksolway]

I've played a few games in 5th with my DH, I used to be a water warrior, however, I have been having real problems dealing with armour. I've been playing in 5th, but leaning more towards my Iron Hands army because of my armour problem. The new vehicle damage chart make it really difficult to kill anything. Reading the forum I have found a lot of people are going for very assaulty lists, using PAGKs as Assault troops was always a big no no to me. I recognize the usefullness of ISTs in Rhinos these days. But I have difficulty thinking of how to use my PAGKs in their LRs. Normally I would walk my PAGKs outside of the opponents main guns and Dakka away. I assume that is not really possible anymore. I am also very afraid of the new Blood Angels with thier fast vehicles (thanks Matt Ward, ass).

 

Anyone want to provide a little explaination of the current metagame with my Knights of old?

[wizard12]

I find using grey knights agressivly is a pretty good way to go. Then again I have no phycannons so i don't have the option to sit back and fire from range.

[number6]

Pure GK is nowhere near a balanced army. And the list of armies that it can even attempt to compete with gets smaller with every codex. We're down to about Orks and Necrons ... and that's it. Otherwise, you should just expect to get hosed with your pure GK army.

 

The army lists in this topic are about as good as you can get using only pure DH codex units. For most casual games, you'll get decent performance out of them. But against competitive armies produced by the new 5th-edition-developed codexes they'll struggle.

 

The only competitive build for DH requires healthy IG induction and minimal participation from the GKs. Makes me a sad panda. :( However, such an army really is one of the very best of the best.

 

Finally, if some rumors hold true, we ourselves could be getting a much-needed upgrade before too much longer, even this calendar year. Hope springs eternal...

[Magnus Thane]

I have a pure GK force, you play these guys for fun not competitiveness.

No reason to ignore them though as eventually they'll get an upgrade.

[ntgcleaner]

number6 has taught me a lot, though I have to respectfully disagree with him on the IG induction. Yes, the GK are hard to play and you have to almost have a "cheese" (I don't believe in cheese) list to take anything out.

 

My main opponent has been Tau, and I have been working lists around him. I finally got a list that he has trouble (6 games won so far) with in a 1250 point game. I have played all but Blood Angels, Witch Hunters and space wolves with this list and I have won quite a few (bad dice aside).

 

BC w/ 4 termies (2TH SS) in a LR

8-10 PAGK in a LR (usually with flamers)

2 sets of 5 IST's with 2 meltas each, both in a rhino

everything with smoke

 

I play very aggressively and I try to make sure and round up the opponent with two land raiders. PotMS is a big help, moving 12" and shooting a lascannon shot at something. anything Av14, I make sure I can fire both weapons as much as possible. Every squad except the PAGK can blow up a tank, plus two tanks that can take out a tank.

 

Once the armor killers are dead, you can walk all over them. Use cover as much as possible between the big shots and your big points. I use my PAGK and Termies exclusively for assault. pop out of a LR, shoot 16-20 shots and take out anything standing in your way (assuming the fight is in your favor - pick and choose your battles).

 

IST's are almost a suicide unit, running as fast as possible towards huge armor. Smoke when you NEED cover (penetrating hits are reduced to glancing) and move again, disembark and shoot your meltas, blow up something and move on. That's also two instant kill, no armor save shots.

 

I love the list and I love playing with it against anyone. Especially horde armies. It is fun to run things over and move around while taking shots here and there then deny them the assault.

[imukuni]

I've played pure GK for the last year and recently have won 90% of my games. Water warrior style can still hold true, in fact It works against most armies. I wouldn't worry too much about the new BA codex honestly. I've played the new army and win majority of combats, sure they have some great char. but normal jump infantry as troops you should rip through. base attacks after weps bonus is a tie, WS is better on a PAGK, and str 6 goes a long way. Where you need 3's and 2's, they need 4's and 4's.

The only army I have a problem with so far is Guard. they get many more tanks than last edition and can get tons of guys. You might take out a tank or two, but the rest just destroys your units. I say keep in there!

[tksolway]

Don't worry all, I will be sticking with my beloved knights. Is there an update to the WotWW tactica with the new 5th edition rules anywhere? I still love to play my knights. As I said I have been playing a few games and kill teams with my Iron Hands, and I always find myself missing my knights when I play them (though I must say I love the big guns). I've got a 1250 pt event coming up at my local GW. Can't remember the mission, but its the one where an attacker is attacking the army setup within 12" of the centre. I've been tempted to bring my Knights to it, rather than my IH simply for fluff's sake. I don't have any ISTs and I've made the decision that I won't buy any until we get the new codex. So I will probably go for a fluffy army. I have been impressed by the armies I've seen wtih 2-3 LRs. I will probably go for something along those lines. The 1250 tourny I am going to is based on kill points, so I don't have to worry about capturing objectives. In this case I was thinking of something like this (from memory, I think it came out to 1240 points or something)

 

BC w/PC

BC w/PC w 2Termie, one W/PC (joined up as a 3PC marching band)

2x PAGK 7man W/ 1 Incinerator each.

2x Land Raider each with smoke and Extra Armour.

 

I know it is a very small force. In the old days I would have taken something along these lines

 

BC w/PC

BC w/PC w 2Termie, one W/PC (joined up as a 3PC marching band)

3x PAGK 8man

2x Dread TLLC + ML

 

Feel free to pick apart my new list.

[ntgcleaner]

I do like the dreads, though I like a LOT of dreads if I take any. I feel 2 are just easy medium priority targets (highest priority in your list as those are your only big guns!)

 

Unfortunately, in any of our lists, we won't have a lot of big weapons to take down enemy tanks. The reason I would suggest taking LR's over Dreads is because you NEED S8 weapons to even glance the armor on the LR's! Lascannons and railguns are big threats though (as well as close ranged multimeltas).

 

It seems like a lot of points spent on a PC marching band... I feel they could be better points spent on a Purg squad with some PC's and extra wounds. Sure, you would have to run on turn 1 to get a sufficient fire base, but I think you would be able to squeeze more points out of the termies by doing that.

 

I didn't want IST's in my lists at first either, though I find their 120 points worth of seemingly low priority is worth it. Always try to think of the mental game as well. Your opponents see the high threats (be it AV14 or Av12, both with lascannons) and -hopefuly- ignore those rhinos with some weak IST's in them. They move 12" into cover, or straight out in the open and pop smoke and they are just about golden until T2 where you are now 36" from your table edge (12" deploy, 12" move (smoke) 12" move on Turn 2). Then they pop out and pop some high priority target with 2 meltas. I have never not destroyed their target. Plus, you still have higher priority targets than them when their transport dies. the two meltas are a giant bee sting in the butt. Imagine instant killing Tau Crisis suits (my favorite) rolling 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound with no saves! Oh, and did I mention, you have three other IST's to throw away to incoming fire. Also, take a look at the plastic I.G. packs. You can get some kasrkin (i think) troops that look almost identical to IST's without having to special order them.

 

If you're going dreads, I would try to field more, If you are going 2x LR's, make sure you use them with assault units (i.e. Termies, maybe with THiSS or 8+ PAGK).

 

I hope I didn't destroy your list or hopes as what usually happens to me when I post lists (I hear a lot of - no, that's not how you play it -[not on this forum, but others I do].)

 

This is my 2 cents, obviously some people would disagree with me, but this works for me!

 

Edit: I also wanted to say, I don't play water style anymore. I found that my Armor gets shot up too quick when I wait around and try to find some cover. I spearhead from about middle to 3/4 of one side of my table edge then move straight to their juicy targets, popping smoke when need be. I play very aggressively with anything more than Orks and Tyranids.

[templargdt]

Totally agree with #6. I'm eagerly awaiting a new codex to use my beloved Grey Knights again, since I have no interest in playing Imperial Guard.

[brownie21o]

Totally agree with #6. I'm eagerly awaiting a new codex to use my beloved Grey Knights again, since I have no interest in playing Imperial Guard.

 

If we can avoid independent characters like "Greigh Nocturne, Grey Knight of the Grey Knights" or "The Grey Knight" I'll be happy.

[Magnus Thane]

Grey Knights riding Pumbagors for the win!

And wielding powerharps!

...

On second thought let's stick to the basics:

Dread variants, Landraider variants and cost efficient GK's.

[number6]

@tksolway: At 1250 pts, a dual raider army -- whether we're talking Grey Knights or any of the lesser Astartes chapters -- is just a Rock. You will totally smash aside some armies, but a few others will cause you fits. For example, if you happen to be facing an IG list with melta vets as a core ... well, you're probably hosed and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

At the more usual points level of 1850 pts - 2000 pts, a dual (even triple) raider army is still a rock ... only a weaker one. At those points levels, almost every army can bring plenty of land raider counters. Not just melta weapons or railguns, either, but screening units and tar pits to block and bog down both the raider and the occupants inside.

 

This is what I mean about pure GKs not being balanced. It doesn't matter what points level you're playing at, you can't reliably take on all comers with such a list. There are always going to be several opposing army lists that simply have your number and you're relatively helpless against it. Yes, you can win games. You might even win most of them (depends upon what armies you typically face, of course), but don't ever fool yourself into thinking you've got an all-comer's, balanced, competitive army.

 

If your army is easily countered by armies that exist -- whether or not you actually play them -- then it isn't balanced, competitive, or worth considering (IMHO).

 

To bring this back 'round to your question: If you're happy with a rock army at 1250 pts, go nuts. You'll certainly win your fair share of games with it. But I don't personally consider winning with such an army much of a challenge or an accomplishment, since I know that I will usually smash opposing Scissors ... while an unlucky matchup will be the Paper to my Rock.

 

If you want an army that is more than a rock, an army that can play all of rock, paper, and scissors, then you're going to have to play with ISTs and inducted IG. There's no escaping it.

 

For an example, I proposed the following 1250 pt list in a recent post.

 

HQ

[254 pts] BC, psycannon; 3 GKTs, psycannon

 

Troop

[225 pts] 6 GKs, 2x psycannon

[138 pts] 6 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke

[128 pts] 5 ISTs, 2x melta; Rhino, extra armour, smoke

[105 pts] IG Platoon Command Squad, lascannon; Chimera

[125 pts] IG Platoon Infantry Squad, lascannon; Chimera

[125 pts] IG Platoon Infantry Squad, lascannon; Chimera

[75 pts] IG Platoon Heavy Weapons Squad, 3x autocannon

[75 pts] IG Platoon Heavy Weapons Squad, 3x autocannon

 

Total: 1250 pts exactly

 

Give the infantry squad chimeras to the GKTs and PAGKs. [...] Be sure to put heavy flamers on the Chimeras, too.

[amuro_ray]

Humm...PAGK in LR in my experience

 

1. 20 inch assault threat

2. Objective Bunker

3. if the objective maker is about 12 inch a part, parking a LR in between them gives u two in one :huh: (cos u can claim anything within 3 inch of an objective)

 

Remember that Grey Knight threat is not just the LR, the GK inside can hurt lots of models, I've never afraid of IG list, a multiple charge from 8 PAGK to three 10 man squads of them is normal...if there's a tank nearby, assault them too...GK can hurt any tank other than LR-Monolith

 

I don't believe that GK is lacking any anti armour with Landraiders (both variants) and their STR 6 troops

 

I play water style...but sometimes if there's a chance...or the enemy's list is favorable i'll do a tsunami attack !!! (watery aggresive) ;)

 

My 1000 pts list is identical to number6 (actually i followed his and silent_requiem's wisdom for the early part of my gaming) but in a 1500 pts i'll bring a crusader with GM Retinue + Holocaust for the mix

 

People just don't believe the number of weapons a crusader can shoot during a shooting phase after moving at top speed in 5th ed with POMS ver 5.0

 

i guess that when playing GK we should make ppl afraid of our list...not the other way around

 

about blood angels

fast ball predator...it's still a predator with AV13 Front AV10 butt

Assault marines...good, saves our time travelling to their location

Dante, Mephiston, Tycho..or any of their so called ICs...try a sip of GM's force weapon and they're gone

Psychic powers....Aegis and Psychic hood should do the job, dont forget that rolling equal to the enemy=you win

 

with a kill point tourney, you'll notice that you have less point to offer that the enemy will offer to you most of the time :P

 

Have Faith, Our Dex is like Wine...just keeps getting stronger with age

[tksolway]

What do you guys think of this for a rock army then? Did I hit it?

 

BC (to join one squad in LR)

8 man PAGK w/2x Incinerator Frags

8 man PAGK w/1x Incinerator Frags

5 Man PAGK w/2x PC Targeter

2x LR "Godhammer" with Smoke

 

comes to 1250

 

Question, Do the frags only effect the Justicar then? So he would only go at the same initiative.

[number6]

I've never afraid of IG list, a multiple charge from 8 PAGK to three 10 man squads of them is normal...if there's a tank nearby, assault them too...

Heh. I never have it that easy. ;) None of the IG players I face would let me get away with a multi-charge like that. They'll sacrifice a unit to my GKs, then while they're stranded they open up and slaughter them easily.

 

So then I keep them inside the raider rather than rush pell-mell into them ... and they immobilize or destroy it in any number of ways, forcing me to get out and walk toward them. E.g., sacrificing a melta vet unit to the raider, peppering it with a dozen or more lascannon shots, many of them twin-linked, .... You get the idea. It's a losing proposition however you look at it. The IG is too balanced and has too many ways to defeat you.

 

Ever since the new IG book, I haven't been able to beat it with my pure GK army more than a couple of times. This -- and each of the codexes that has been released since IG -- has been what has convinced me that pure GK isn't a balanced army any more (if it ever truly was).

[tksolway]

I have to agree, I have the new IG codex since I do have IG to use as allies. I have been caught drooling at the options they have. The Vendetta has more firepower than our LR and is half the price, Plus its a skimmer. Sure its AV is lower, but when you travel 12" you get a pretty nice cover save. That combined with the sheer amount of heavy weapons they can take makes them a hard nut to crack. In a 2500 point game it would be totally within reason to see 9 Russ's and a clutch of Vendettas. That's not even counting all those Veteren Squads in Chimeras pumping Melta shots out of their Fire points.

[amuro_ray]

@number6

 

my list is your normal 1000, but i always bring GM, my experience with BC is just...better left unmentioned, at 1500 there will be GM retinue and Crusader with Holocaust, going up, there will be BC stern and inquisitor with landraider, more PAGK inside, and assasins, greater than 2000, I'll take CC marines scouts with landspeeder storm as tank/infantry hunter and change the parent list to space marines :) (IMHO pure DH just doesn't have the cut to play more than 2000)

 

i'd guess things are working differently out there ;) eg: different player and different list, my opponent usually stays on the back, with demolisher leman russ and las-sentinel...all nicely bunched up together, maybe the key is not to take their bait and focus on getting a good multi angle rush?? and most of the times i'd choose not to shoot my stormbolter so i can catch up with the most of them and let combat resolution do the rest.

 

hopefully we didn't wipe them all out, so we can continue and finish combat on their turn, and attack again on our turn.

 

as for tank battle, i'll keep on dual targetting with LR POMS, Leman Russes are tough, but not chimera variants and sentinels.

 

maybe i gotta battle some more tougher IG players also comes into mind, I haven't got that much trouble with IG

 

just an idea, how about assasins...with the new IG list depending heavily on their orders, vindicare sniping for officers, callidus repositioning and psychological threat, culexus morale drain...does it worth it ?

 

"The Crusader makes you play aggressively. No 6" puttering around. We're talking 12" per turn guns blazing. Oh, and here's a bunch of GKTs in your face. How do you like them apples?"

 

I like this quote ;)

 

@tksolway

why the targeter...it's almost like telling your opponent too :P but u're paying

 

aren't you interested to use Stern? he's available at 1500 points 2 wounds, force weapon, holocaust, hammerhand and re-rolls for a good price.

 

I don't know what's your plan with the 5 man PC...squad...aren't they gonna be left behind ? or they're tasked to keep home obective ?

 

My tought: A base team (LR GH + PAGK) and away team (LR Crusader + PAGK + BC) if u're thinking about objective like your list.

[ntgcleaner]

Well, just played my 1250 list again tonight agaist a different Tau (twice) and a Tyranid army.

 

First game against Tau, there were 5 capture points, I got 3, he got 1. That was an amazing game,

 

Second game against Tau, sieze ground, I won with 55 points left on the table (3 IST's and 1 PAGK Justicar) The justicar and 1 IST were standing on the objective at the end of turn 6. I made lots of mistakes that game.

 

Third Game Against 'Nidz, 4 Cap Points, I got 2, he got 1. He just couldn't take out those LR's!

 

I still love my list and I almost feel like I am cheating. The Tau said I had a cheese list (with 2 LR's) and I told him my argument about how there shouldn't be cheese. I made a list that I feel can take on anyone, and I'm sure that with average rolls, I can be beat by just about anything. Also, I'm only shooting an average of something like 2 lascannons per turn, and I don't have anything else with that distance/power. If you bring 3 big guns (like the Tau Did) and he can shoot all 3 every turn... well... There's the argument. I need to roll 4's to glance his front armor on his hammerhead, he needs to roll 4's to glance me. It all evens out.

 

I love my list and I don't think I want to change anything. (MAAAYYYBBEEE an incinerator instead of a THiSS) but I would have to play with the points.

 

I left my codex in the car, but I could swear that you needed 1500 pts to take stern, or coteaz...

 

The targeter is good for one thing and it's cheap and is probably considered cheating (I don't take a targeter or even use them on my IST's because of this) but I have seen that people use a targeter to take a free measurement at a unit that is farther away, most likely behind, the unit that you ACTUALLY plan on shooting at. This way, you can quickly see if you are in range for an assault or other ranges that may pertain to that unit in front. I don't like that.

 

Main thing with DH's is to ALWAYS utilize cover. If you don't have it, use smoke.

[number6]

Dual raider DH lists -- at ANY points level -- are so definitely NOT "cheesy"! :D I have had a full Tau army for a year, and I have no trouble handling my old DH lists with it. Heck, when I hand the Tau army over to an opponent, the Tau still usually win.

 

We've talked about your Tau opponent previously, ntgcleaner, and it sounds like he isn't adjusting his list at all. Like IG, Tau have many multiple ways to kill you. This is not the forum for it, but I wrote a Tau tactica over on LO. Send your friend there for some help and ideas about decent Tau army list builds and how to play them.

 

@amuro_ray: Sounds like your IG opponent is unwilling or unable to put speedbumps in your path. Few -- if any -- armies can actually kill everything in just two turns of shooting. No wonder you're getting into his lines and multi-charging. There's much more to playing 40K effectively than rolling dice. There's a huge world of tactics involved, and I don't get the impression that s/he is using any of them. Mobility, blocking, sacrificing, layered countercharging, etc etc etc. The game is surprisingly deep, and unless that depth is explored, the player with the bigger rock is just going to win. And as I've been saying, GKs are a big ol' rock. But that doesn't make them "good". ;)

[ntgcleaner]

@number6, The Tau opponent has been trying to adjust his list here and there but he is trying to make it all comers as well. Though, the last two games I played were "against a different Tau". Not my usual Tau friend. This guy had a bit of a different list with more firewarriors and no kroot and some other small changes like, another ionhead (?) hammerhead.

 

But I will direct my friend to your post! I'm sure he would love to read it and expand his knowledge. You taught me the building blocks of DH and I have expanded from there! Again, I thank you!

[number6]

This guy had a bit of a different list with more firewarriors and no kroot and some other small changes like, another ionhead (?) hammerhead.

Tau armies like that make Shas'o Six a sad sad commander. :angry:

[Inquisitor Fox]

Tau armies like that make Shas'o Six a sad sad commander. :lol:

You'd probably cry at my just over 1000 points of Tau then... :D No Pirahna's, no plasma anywhere, hordes of missle pods, burst cannons, a few fusion guns, lots of foot infantry... I do plan on adding kroot though, but not as infiltrators. As many approaches as different commanders I suppose *grins*

 

@ntgcleaner: good to hear you're having more luck now, ntgcleaner! I've always found it's not really the list, but the mental approach of the commander that can lead to victory. The better you learn your own forces and how to adapt to changing tabletop conditions the better off you are.

 

I also am obligated to recommend the particular bastion of Tau knowledge I use, Advanced Tau Tactica which is full of useful articles, approaches, and knowledge.

 

@tklsolway: As I was sort of saying directed at ntgcleaner, I don't think it's the list or the exact rules that really lead to victory. Rules might change whether you are better off with a missile launcher, multi-melta or a lascannon, but even then it isn't that big a difference. How many of us really plan an entire list because one weapon is 5% more effective than another in one particular instance? It's still the same concepts: Lascannons are the most powerful and longest range, Missile Launchers are the most versatile while keeping range, Multi-melta gives up range for armor stopping firepower boosts. What stays the same really are the same principles of war that have existed for thousands of years. Thinks like flanking maneuvers, refused flanks, understanding your opponent, utilizing mobility, keeping your mind on the mission objectives. These strategies, this mental outlook has remain unchanged from edition to edition.

 

Learn yourself, your own preferences, and troops and units you feel a 'kinship' towards. Learn to recognize the flow of a battle, to spot points where you can seize a momentary advantage. Some people change their army list entirely every edition or pick a new army because of one particular rules quirk. I think they're shooting themselves in the foot and not recognizing what the experience of a canny old fox can provide. The Inquisition remains highly adaptable, highly versatile, and totally unexpected. The Grey Knights maintain versatility and superior firepower on the move. Whatever edition we're in, until they completely revamp what makes the army itself (with a new Codex, all bets are off so to speak) we simply need to watch the battlefield and decide what role will be best suited for that particular moment. Leave your plan adaptable, keep having a few redundancy options, and go with the flow. Exact list tweaking will happen from time to time, but the overall goal remains the same.

[ntgcleaner]

Thank you Inquisitor Lady Nicole Pyykkönen, I appreciate the enthusiasm. I actually found that I had to get around the fact that I was telling myself "I shouldn't do that, that is cheap". I found that I was subconsciously telling myself I shouldn't make certain actions because I felt like it was unfair. I noticed that I have done this for a long long time. Like when I used to play counter-strike (FPS game) I would actually "dumb" myself down because people felt that I was cheating! I practiced and played so much that according to theclq.net (when it was still active) I was ranked #1 in the world on public servers for close to an entire month! But I felt like I needed to make the game more fair for the others and I stopped aiming in the right spot...

 

This goes for everyone BTW:

A friend of mine showed me this quote

 

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who are we to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous.

 

Actually, who are we not to be.

 

Your playing small does not serve the world.

 

There is nothing enlightening about shrinking so that other people won't feel small around you. We were born to manifest the glory that is within us. It is not just in some of us, it is in everyone. And when we let our light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

 

- Marianne Williamson

 

And I snapped out of it! I feel more powerful than ever and I realize that I shouldn't make moves because it seems like its "fair". I am PLAYING TO WIN!

 

I beg anyone reading this, Get out of your own way! If it's in the rule book, then it is NOT CHEAP. Just like I don't believe there is a such thing as "Cheese" in 40k

 

Sorry for the rant and being off topic! and thank you again!

[number6]

If it's in the rule book, then it is NOT CHEAP. Just like I don't believe there is a such thing as "Cheese" in 40k

QFT. ;)

[- 7eAL -]

If it's in the rule book, then it is NOT CHEAP. Just like I don't believe there is a such thing as "Cheese" in 40k

QFT. :P

On one level it seems true. On the other hand, as a dev, my feelings get complicated.

 

I suppose that the real problem is that cheese doesn't exist for the player. The player uses what has been given; any problems that come from what has been given are not the fault of the player if there happens to be a glitch. Cheese is the act of the developer or writer who consciously or unconsciously produces rules and abilities that take advantage of the larger structure of a game system in ways that cannot be countered, balanced or otherwise solved. That's basically negligence towards their work. War games are supposed to be glorified chess, not rock-paper-scissors-wrecking ball. And so I can happily lay the blame for all of our problems on writers like Mat Ward and Robin Cruddace, and on Games Workshop management.