Bjorn no longer the eldest!

[Night Runner]

Let's watch the bashing of the BA dex. We have lots to be happy with our dex. Let our brothers(and sisters)share the glory.

 

I think the overall quality of fluff in the dexes is diminished. I blame this on GW marketing and Merret(as he must approve the fluff) than any one writer.

 

Maybe I was a bit harsh and how I wrote it did convey this a bit , and maybe I should not have used the word crappy. I did not want to fan any flames, but I do think that a lot of what Mr Ward writes is rather silly and it has diminished, as Lord Ragnarok says, the codex fluff in general.

 

Sorry but this guy has repeatedly come out with stuff that borders on the rediculous!

 

This is certainty true, Mr Ward has this tendency, he should do his research better. This maybe fluff and we nerds for taking it seriously, but I enjoy it as a pass time and I care for it as a setting and don't want to see it animised cartoonishly. There are some things in the fluff you don't tamper with like the status of Bjorn or the Imperial Fist's role as honor guard, for example. Let's hope this trend doesn't continue.

[Rider-75]

It says "Many bear the scars earned during the Battle for the Emperor's Palace" while referring to the Furioso class of dreadnought. The dreadnought is the machine, not the marine.

 

The quote in the OP also reads as a fragment (i don't have a copy of the codex as of yet to check the reference in full....) To me it reads as though it is referring to the BA dreads, implying that the furiosos are the most venerable of the BA dreads - not ALL dreads.

 

So, as for the implications:

 

The oldest surviving BA dread chassis are furiosos from the Heresy. (as per the quote in the OP)

The oldest surviving dread pilot is Bjorn (as per the SW codex)

 

case closed.

 

(may be re-examined on provision of further evidence - ie: the full quote from the codex IN CONTEXT)

[sonofblood]

By nerd rage I did not mean specifically here, I ment in general across multiple sites. Yes I know Bjorn was the oldest marine(or oldest dreadnaught marine, depending on how you look at Sanguinor now.) But it seems people aren't looking at the whole picture or as Rider has said, just one line. Dreadnaught could be Machine, not the marine in it. We all know that each codex is basis towards itself and each codex does have over the top stuff. I was mostly referring to the Sanguinor comment made, Bjorn is by far one of my favorite characters. But, is it so unreasonable for the 1st founding legions to have dreadnaughts from the great crusade? As in the Chassis and not the pilots. When I read this thread all it seemed to be was "Bjorn retconned :o :o ;) " of course this is hyperbole. But to say it's impossible for any of the 1st founding legions to not have any sort of armor or suits or relics(which all dreadnaughts are) from the heresy/crusade is ludicrous in my opinion. Bjorn can still be the oldest pilot of a dreadnaught of all the chapters, just that now we have chassis/suits that are 10k years old too.

[Ulriks Minion]

I'm pretty sure that's the chassis it's referring to. No need to freak out, Wolves. Get a chew toy out and I'll get the Ordo Hospitaller to rub your bellies or something.

 

 

Queues up for some hot Sis of Battle to rub his hairy belly.

 

Queues up behind Imperialis "I hope she gives me a rasberry and slips"

[Wolfguard72]

Hi everyone could not resist making a comment. So if this is true that the BA have some of the oldest Dreads, like Bjorn, then why the stupid inconsistency in the stat line for Bjorn. It has bugged me for the longest why they would make Bjorn with an I3 when all other dreads (including now the oldest ones with BA) with I4.

 

I have been playing since RT and know how cool Bjorn was in 2nd Ed. This was a slap in the face with our new codex to give the most famous dread of all time a I3 with no reason why. Sure people state that because he is so old he is slower. Then why dont the BA dread have I3 because they are just as old. And now with a statement that the BA dread Chassis are older than Bjorn and they have a higher Initiate value than Bjorn is just an insult. We pay a high cost for Bjorn, just give us at least I4.

 

This goes to show that new codex are written by a few and they don’t look at the system as a whole. Even though everyone hates 2nd Ed. it still was more consistent (I.E. weapon stats, powers, etc).

 

Anyways, good hunting everyone!

[Karack Blackstone]

It seems to say Chassis... There's at least hope that some sense remains in GW's rulings...

 

That said, Bjorn is the oldest 'living' Space Marine around, according to our codex. The new 'fluff' is something I take with a grain of salt. Isn't the highest human stat possible supposed to be a 6 without some major justification?

 

This situation reeks of bad writing, and bad fluff continuity to me.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Bjorn is old and a bit sleepy these days - the I3 reflects the fluff and he brings lots of other benefits to the party.

 

The Empire is supposed to be a huge and confusing place based on mixed memories of the past and conflicting narratives of the present.

 

The BAs have their version of their own history, we have our sagas - who is to say which is correct.

 

So they have some of the oldest chassis - every first founding Chapter will have some of the oldest chassis and we have Bjorn still sort of living in one of ours...

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

We've got Rhino chassis still up and running from the Heresy, to say nothing of Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts. I think it is far from beyond belief to think a Dread carapace from the Heresy exists, even if the pilot changed. Indeed, I think that's the point of Dread chassis.

 

Queues up for some hot Sis of Battle to rub his hairy belly.

 

Hospitallers are a non-Militant order of the Sororitas and therefore not explicitly Sisters of Battle.

 

The moar you know!

 

:lol:

 

Hope

 

First step, road to disappointment, yadda yadda yadda.

[HamHamLunchbox]

well,the BA fluff says that some pilots of the BA dreads were fighting on terra and put into a dread AFTERWARDS.

 

so bjorn still is the oldest marine "alive"

[Bran Scalphunter]

*slams through a nearby wall, ES in hand, bellowing and frothing at the mouth*

 

It'd better be the actual suit that He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named is referring to, not the occupant. Bjorn is the oldest loyalist still alive (barring Custodes) and no poncy, blond, blood-drinking bat is going to take that from the Wolves! *frenzies* Besides, do you really think even the Blood Angels could deal with a dread screaming "BLOOD!!!!!" for ten millenia?! I would have shot him halfway through the first year just to shut him up!

 

*heads off in He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named's general direction, still rabid and roaring*

[Emperor's Scourge]

Matt Ward and his Codex efforts are laughable.

 

I feel sorry for the BA players drawing him as their writer. There are so many ridiculous fluff entires and units in this book...

 

I mean come on...Sanguinor? How did that get past the editorial process?

 

Oh wait...this is GW there is no editorial process.

 

"So you have any new units for this book Matt?"

 

"hell yeah great stuff"

 

"like what?"

 

"Well I have this guy thats practically a daemon prince who shows up at random to help Blood Angels overcome huge odds. He's been doing it the whole time! Cool huh?"

 

"..."

 

"Did I mention his stats are great and people'll buy the new models up like crack?"

 

"Sold! When can you start on the next codex?"

[Brother Hadafix]

Just another reason that Matt Ward is a complete idiot.

 

Though I suppose its worth stating that just because the dreads chassi is ancient doesnt mean the marine inside is even 200.

 

This, plus there are a number of things in the BA dex that is bending the fluff out of shape.

 

On a side note "Paging Grey Mage! If you are still on with the project could you please contact the astropath and let him know to clear some of the back log. Some are finding it difficult to keep you up to date."

[Brother Kovash]

"Did I mention his stats are great and people'll buy the new models up like crack?"

 

"Sold! When can you start on the next codex?"

 

This quote is priceless. I personally had to put the BA codex down because of the fluff.

 

And Bjorn should be loaded up with booze every battle, he should have an I9 value.

[Skirnir Ragefang]

There was a fanmade Character just like Sanguinor but for Dark Angels some way back. I haven't read the Codex yet, but what i heard about Mephiston was pretty over the top (not concerning point cost, lack of IC status). Anyway, all that matters to me is that the BA Codex allows for a very characterful army. I might even be tempted, considering i have nearly a full Greatcompany of Wolves :(

 

On the topic of the Dreadnoughts: It would only make sense to refer to the Chassis. BA Marines tend to live incredibly long for marine standards with Mephiston being the oldest non-Dread Marine, but eventually succumb to the Black Rage/Red Thirst, but being known to be some of the greatest Artificiers in the Imperium, i wouldn't put it past them to build and maintain Dreads that long.

[Wildfire]

It honestly had never occured to me that a chassis might outlive the marine inside. For it to be common... no. I have to say I think it's a case of the writer making a fluff error.

 

Clearly the phenomenon exists, but does it have a name? Something like "Fluff Creep"?

 

:woot: :lol: :lol: This made me choke on my spit.

[Grey Mage]

Actually... dante is supposedly the oldest marine, but they obfuscate that a bit by saying his banner-man is his old scout seargent... so :S

[Little Russy]

If the Furiosos are the oldest then how did the machine survive while the pilot did not. I thought the Imperium didn't know how to rebuild the things. The only thing I can possibly think of is that the sarcophagi was shot and the rest of the machine survived but I wouldn't put that much money on that happening more then once in a chaotic battleground.

[Grey Mage]

They can build them... in limited numbers. Its not as hard as saying, building a titan or 100 stasis grenades.

 

They can also repair them... power outages, severe trauma, etc might put one out of comission or kill the pilot, but keep enough of the chassi alive to salvage.

[Wispy]

What do you think a direct hit to the sarcophagus is going to do? Oh, venerable bob took a hit to the chest. Pilot is lost, armor and systems still good shape, just gotta clear the slag and wire a new cripple in.

 

It's basically a text book example of what a roll of 5 on the damage table might be.

 

edit: Factor in the pilot is, y'know, dead center of the dreadnought... Yes, I think it's very possible that most dreadnought warriors are killed in this fashion. It would also explain why marines go to great efforts to recover the fallen dreads - it's not a waste of time, and most of the time, the armored shells are probably in a recoverable state.

[Aeddon]

The more I read these new codecies the more I think they are designed to be from the point of view of the army they represent. So while they may believe that their primarch was the "first son to the Emperor" and their dreadnoughts "bare scars from the heresy" or that Dante is so uber old this might be just how they view things. If a big part of a codex is designed to get you thinking like a SW/BA/Smurf than this approach would make sense. Every chapter (besides ours of course :D ) exaggerates a bit so I suppose it should almost be expected for them to have some fluff that is pretty out there.

 

Of course, everything in the SW codex is written exactly the way things are and by Russ, my chainsword dares anyone to say different!

[Kenmichi]

Actually... dante is supposedly the oldest marine, but they obfuscate that a bit by saying his banner-man is his old scout seargent... so :S

 

That doesn't necessarily mean that the scout sergeant is older than Dante, though. It's unlikely but possible that Dante slowly advanced through the ranks, or he became a space marine later than most recruits, or the scout sergeant advanced quickly, etc. I hate to say it but it's sort of like the fluff behind Lukas, he just refuses to accept a promotion to grey hunter or long fang so he has been leading blood claw packs for years.

 

Would this be an appropriate time to mention that no where have I ever seen an actual number attributed to the age of Ulrik the Slayer? The man who recruited the 700 year old Logan into the Wolves, the best friend of Bjorn? We already know he's the oldest Space Wolf aside from Bjorn, and fought as a Wolf Guard at the First War of Armageddon (no date). Pretty mysterious.

 

[edit]I just realized the fluff around the First War of Armageddon is contradictory in this regard. If Ulrik was a Wolf Guard, how could he have recruited Logan into the Space Wolves, who was the Supreme Commander and Great Wolf during the First War?

 

Man oh man... :|

[Sarapham]

Actually... dante is supposedly the oldest marine, but they obfuscate that a bit by saying his banner-man is his old scout seargent... so :S

 

That doesn't necessarily mean that the scout sergeant is older than Dante, though. It's unlikely but possible that Dante slowly advanced through the ranks, or he became a space marine later than most recruits, or the scout sergeant advanced quickly, etc. I hate to say it but it's sort of like the fluff behind Lukas, he just refuses to accept a promotion to grey hunter or long fang so he has been leading blood claw packs for years.

 

Would this be an appropriate time to mention that no where have I ever seen an actual number attributed to the age of Ulrik the Slayer? The man who recruited the 700 year old Logan into the Wolves, the best friend of Bjorn? We already know he's the oldest Space Wolf aside from Bjorn, and fought as a Wolf Guard at the First War of Armageddon (no date). Pretty mysterious.

 

 

Well the whole Ulric at Armageddon thing is a bit sketchy since is says that´s where he rose to fame, and that Logan was Great Wolf at Armageddon. Yet it is also known that Ulric was the one who mentored Logan, which does not make sense.