Predator

[ImperialReaper]

Rerading trough the various army lists in this forum, I came to realise that the predator is the weapon of choice for heavy armored fire support for many players. Compared to a dreadnought it is also quite cheap in points - which makes it very interesting for me, since i am quite new to the game and mostly do Games between 600 and 1000 Points.

 

I just finished building my predator *happy* but i am now unshure about how to spend my points:

Sync Laser Canon and 2 side mounted heavy bolters OR autocannon (that standard gun thing there) and 2 side mounted Laser Canons.

Equipping all 3 Laser Canons would make it too expensive i think.

Mostly I play against Chaos, other Space Marines, Imperial Guard or Eldar - where heavy armor occures more often.

 

Against hords of Orcs or Tyranids I would probably go for the highest numer of shots and leave the autocannon and get the 2 heavy bolters and an additional stormbolter.

 

Your expertise would be appriciated.

 

Regards

Tony

[minigun762]

The most overall useful version is probably the "Combi-Predator" which is a Autocannon turret and Lascannon sponsons. This gives you alot of long range firepower to direct against enemy tanks, walkers and MCs. Its also not horrible against MEQs or other infantry. In this setup, I like the HK Missile if you have the spare points, because its just 1 more long range anti-tank weapon to fire first turn.

 

My second choice is the "Dakka Predator" with Autocannon/Heavy Bolters and optional Storm Bolter. Its a cheap good buy but it also competes with the Whirlwind and Thunderfire Cannon for pure anti-infantry firepower.

[Koremu]

Oft-overlooked is the "no sponsons" Autocannon Predator. It's remarkably cheap for an AV13 rolling platform.

[rockdeity]

My vote goes for AC/HB combo for cost efficiency. If LC side sponsons, you can't fire them and move, and that's an expensive thing not to use for even one turn.

 

It's not as big a deal to not fire the HB because they're really cheap. Plus, it's the cheapest option other than just AC as suggested above. But, imo an AC alone makes it a non-factor and not worth taking.

 

AC/HB makes it useful vs. pretty much all infantry and some MC's. You can even tear up light armor in a pinch. Not bad for something cheaper than a dread.

[DerekLee688]

The combi predator is suited for AV12/MC's/transports/walkers. "Heavy Armor" is in the realm of AV13-14, and this realy should be killed by melta. Idealy attack bikes and land speeders offer the best speed and low profile for the job.

[ShinyRhino]

I've seen a matched pair of lascannon-only Preds used to relatively good effect blasting MCs and taking down light armor from across the board.

[pingo]

My first shot in my first ever game was from the autocannon of a dakka pred. Took out an Ork trukk carrying boyz, a nob, and a warboss, stranding them on the other side of the board. Not only that, the explosion killed 7 Orks in the process. It continued to dominate the area of the board it was in until I was forced to send it forward late in the game and it got crunched by a killa kan in close combat.

 

Suffice it to say, there is always a place for it on my lists :lol:

 

And all for 85 points. 85! For any army, that's a steal.

 

To be honest, whatever the configuration, the predator looks to me to be a pretty damn fine tank.

[Xeonic]

The predator really starts to look attractive when you compare it to a devestator squad set up for the same task.

 

Dakka pred, autocannon, HB sponsons, storm bolter - 85pts.

Devestators, 4x Heavy Bolter - 150 pts.

 

Combi pred, autocannon, lascannon sponsons - 120pts.

Devestators w/missiles cost the same as HB. - 150

Rifleman Dread, 2x TLAC - 125

 

Threw the rifledread on there just because it's the best comparison. There are plusses and minuses to each, and they're within ~5pts of each other, the rifledread puts out 4x high strength twin linked autocannon shots, whereas the combi pred throws out 2 high strength autocannon shots and 2 higher strength low AP lascannon shots. Of course the devestator missiles are more versatile than either and can lay waste to hordes, and any bolter marines can also help out to a certain extent vs soft targets, as well as being able to take melee upgrades... But honestly the predator as it is currently gets my vote for best HS slot choice.

 

Rifledreads are I think superior for pure transport busting, but can never reach the anti infantry dakka potential of the predator(well maybe hurricane bolter/flamer ironclad comes close? :D ), but the dread is competing for elites slots in an army that's perhaps unsuprisingly elites centric, where the predator is competing with... what? Devestators are a joke atm(they're ok for fun games and fluff lists, but hardly worth it even there), whirlwinds are nice I admit, but they're not to my personal taste(they cost the same or more than a dakka pred anyways), thunderfire cannon are interesting and highly dangerous but super fragile(and you pay the points for the techmarine as well), and well vindicators are vindicators, you either love them or hate them.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

predators are the #1 unit in the codex for being cost efficient

[ShinyRhino]

The predator really starts to look attractive when you compare it to a devestator squad set up for the same task.

 

This is a common trap to fall into. You shuldn't really be comparing infantry units with AV units. They're completely different animals.

[DerekLee688]

I love that there are multiple ways to get the same job filled in the codex.

Dakka: "Dakka Pred", HB x4 devistators, HB attack bikes, HBx2/typhoon Land speeders

Anti Light armor: Combi pred/Tri-las, 4x ML devistators, typhoon land speeders

 

As the above post mentioned, each is a entirely different animal and all fulfill a similar role.

[Jackelope King]

I'll almost always take heavy bolter sponsons over lascannon sponsons (though lascannon sponsons aren't bad either). I like my Predators cheap and plentiful. Spamming autocannons really helps open up transports, and heavy bolters help clean up the leftover infantry after you've blown open the transports.

[hazardousZERO]

I generally use the AC/Lascannon pred its good at dealing with both heavy and light armor and its cost is lower then the annihilator. That said in my 1st Apocalypse game (last week) my annihilator did blow up a IG demolisher(?) tank 1st turn even the HKM hit. There expensive but worth it in a game that big. Also it depends on who you are fighting if or the job you want the tank to do, if daka light or medium infantry, if combi heavy infantry to medium armor and if annihilator light to heavy armor. Your choice when it comes down too it so good luck.

[Xeonic]

The predator really starts to look attractive when you compare it to a devestator squad set up for the same task.

 

This is a common trap to fall into. You shuldn't really be comparing infantry units with AV units. They're completely different animals.

Well, I never said they were the same, but they can do the same tasks, they fill the same foc slot, and they both cost points. The predator is a lot cheaper than a full(or even half) dev squad, but the dev squad has the advantage that it can't be killed by a single shot(if you have half a brain), immobilized(the heavy weapons already do that), and gets a cover save pretty much all of the time, making it far more durable espescially vs volumes of high st low AP fire. I was comparing dakka output though, and if you're comparing cost to dakka, then a full dev squad(since you basically have to take 10 men for the bodybags), is being compared to 2 dakka(or even combi) predators for similar points value, and in my opinion the predators are better 9 times out of 10, if just because you have better ability to redeploy. I have used devestators to some effect in the past, but they work best when they have good LOS and a coversave to get a nice command of the board.

 

I'm not comparing land speeders to assault marines, because though those both have the same slot they don't do the same role, I'm comparing the predator to a devestator squad, because they both do the same thing, and that is fire support. The devestators have exactly two advantages over the predator in that respect, and those are surviveability(they're weak to massed fire instead of high strength fire, and have 10 wounds to spread around), though you can also lose capability as you fail saves, and the fact that the dev squad can take multi melta in masse to deny an area to vehicle travel. The two downsides to devestators are cost, and the fact that they need to deployed in area terrain and not move for the entire game to be effective.

 

To compare infantry to infantry, just for fun do the maths on what 2 5 man sternguard squads come up to with 2 heavy weapons each vs a 10 man devestator squad with the same heavy weapons. Now, I wouldn't waste two elites slots for that most of the time but it does show just how cost efficient devestators are.

10 man dev squad with 4 plasma cannon - 270

2x5man sternguard squad with 2 plasma cannon each - 290

 

You'd pay a grand total of 10 points, more per squad for sternguard with +1a and special ammos. THAT is why I think devestators are a sub par choice if nothing else. This is all my opinion though, and for what it's worth the 5th edition predator is IMO probably the most versetile and attractive choice that you can pack into a HS slot.

 

In short: I like apples and oranges both, but the orange is a for more cost efficient lunchtime snack.

[Koremu]

In short: I like apples and oranges both, but the orange is a for more cost efficient lunchtime snack.

Oh so siggable.

[Warprat]

I think the problem with Devestators is that gamers have yet to learn how to unlock thier potential. Now don't laugh, but I think the answer my be a Drop Pod...

 

I'm working on making up an army list or two that can exploit the idea, then I'm going to give it a whirl. If it manages to work out well I'll post a tactica or something.

 

Warprat ;)

[Koremu]

Yeah, I've posited that concept myself a few times.

 

Mostly however, Devastators are good for defensive ops. There's a thread over in amicus about gunline armies, and my point there stands here. Devastators in prepared positions on a Defensive Mission are ok value. Devastators in an all-comers list, not so much.

[ImperialReaper]

So most of you would use the predator to kill infantry and against lighter armor around 10 ? So basicly the predator is used as a heavy armored fire support unit.

 

Against Heavy Armor (12+) you would recommend a fast unit e.g. land speeder with melter or even an assault squad with melter Bombs?

 

Regards

Tony

[Giga]

The two good configurations;

 

- dakkapred (autocannon turret, heavy bolter sponsors)

 

- combi-pred (autocannon turret, lascannon sponsors)

 

Don't waste points on any other upgrades. Keep 'em cheap, and you'll be surprised how well they work.

[minigun762]

So most of you would use the predator to kill infantry and against lighter armor around 10 ? So basicly the predator is used as a heavy armored fire support unit.

 

Against Heavy Armor (12+) you would recommend a fast unit e.g. land speeder with melter or even an assault squad with melter Bombs?

 

Regards

Tony

 

For the Dakka Predator I'd focus on infantry and AV10 vehicles.

With the Combi-Predator I'd focus on AV10-12 vehicles (which includes most transports and walkers) as well as MCs.

[rockdeity]

I think the problem with Devestators is that gamers have yet to learn how to unlock thier potential. Now don't laugh, but I think the answer my be a Drop Pod...

 

The problem is that they are not Troop choices AND their heavy weapons cost more than they do if you put them in tac or stern squads. If either one of these things were changed (not both, although that would be good too), then they would become attractive.

[Xeonic]

I think devestators would be fine if they got a discount on heavy weapons, or even *gasp* got the basic ML/MM/HB for free/cheaps.

Something like this would be fantastic:

Up to two devestator marines may replace their bolter with a heavy bolter, multi-melta, or missile launcher for free.

If the squad numbers 10 models a further two devestator marines may get the same upgrades for 10pts each.

 

Bam, a 10 man squad that costs 190 pts with basic heavy weapons.

To put this into perspective, a quad missile dev squad would now cost the same as a las/plas tac squad.

 

They are afterall perhaps the most iconic heavy support choice, they don't belong in troops.

 

And no, I don't hate devestators. I've run my gunline marines since 4th with and without devestators in multiple configurations, and I sincerely miss being able to justify taking them for fire support over more tacticals, sternguard, or even scouts.

 

As for the predator, it's awesome because every configuration is useful, even the TL lascannon, HB sponson one, the TLlas isn't much worse than the autocannon for killing infantry due to AP2 and twin linked, though the HB -are- wasted shooting at transports. It plays as a slightly more expensive dakka pred that can fire on vehicles if nothing else is around.

[Captain Idaho]

I like the Combi-Predator alot, but also the Twin Linked Lascannon/Heavy Bolters variant. That last variant isn't getting much love here by the look at it, but I enjoy it's versatility. Against infantry you can a big splash with 7 shots a turn (even heavy infantry will lose a few models), and have the option of an additional Lascannon against vehicles and MCs.

 

And an army with both the above Predators working together is extremely well supported! You get 3 Lascannons against big targets and 11 shots against infantry. And best of all you have the versatility to split the 2 Predators fire against 2 target units.

[Jackelope King]

And an army with both the above Predators working together is extremely well supported! You get 3 Lascannons against big targets and 11 shots against infantry. And best of all you have the versatility to split the 2 Predators fire against 2 target units.

I'd really recommend against mixing and matching Predators. Half of the strength of spamming them is that your opponent is reckoning with Lanchester's Square Law in addition to being tough nuts to crack to begin with. If you start giving your opponent target priority, damage to each unique unit is more hobbling, and you reduce the benefits of Lanchester's Square Law. I take 3 Dakka Preds most games, but I wouldn't mind rolling around with 2-3 Autocannon/Las Cannon Sponson Preds... but intermingling them... not such a good idea.

[Captain Idaho]

While I understand what you mean, I think Lanchester's Square Law is not so hard and fast in 40K. Those tanks are pretty versatile enough to be of the same threat against just about any army. If I have a Dread, an Iron Clad and those 2 Predators, the opponent still has to make a hard decision on target priority.

 

The important thing for the equation is I have the tanks on the table.