How will codex marines handle the new Uber assault units?

[Ming]

I was playing my usual 3rd Co Ultramarines vs Spacewolves a few days ago, it was my first romp vs the new codex wolves, and I did not know what to expect. The big issue, that I've seen throughout 5th edition, but growing more urgent every month, is that codex marines need that "alpha strike killer unit" to offset these amazingly fast and strong opponents - the new assault characters and units that the last 3 codex have brought.

 

In this game it was a Wolf lord and his four wolf riding buddies. Might as well sub in any unt, tyrant with guards, seth with superangels, whatever.

 

To set the stage (for those who have not been there yet) -

 

Turn 3, my assault squad gets charged by them. In difficult terrain. Up a hill. My assault squad was there specifically to take the charge and protect my other units. I lose a bunch of assault marines to these guys...in subsequent turns (through turn 7), I feed these wolf riders Kantor, sternguard, librarian, andother tac squad...It was interesting, just trying to see if i could kill these guys! Nope...I put a few wounds on some, but that was about it. I did not care about winning, just wanted to see if I could polish these guys off. Dome and Null were librarian spells.

 

Some of you reading this might be amazed...a few mssing details - my entire army is stubborn, so I rarely run away from a fight, period. So once in, stuck in. At my end of turn 3 I had 3 total power fists in the mix, plus Kantor's inspiring presence.

 

These wolf riders are T5, 2 wounds, 3 or 4 attacks each, one with a fist. The lord is WS6, S6, has jewelry that makes him able to hit all opponents on a 3, and has like 5 attacks on the charge, maybe 4 normally, and pretty much the entire unit does. He is also I6...

 

To add further interest, I had intended to have an assault terminator squad pop in to help (of course they can do nothing the turn they arrive by DS but run), but they got broken down by Njal Stormcaller, and eventually died in a bunch of amazingly bad dangerous terrain checks as he assualted them with some kind of storm while they had to keep running (amazing tactic to try)...

 

OK...screw all that you just read....I need an amazing counter assualt unit to SAVE ME when I need them. Against lesser units, assault marines can often do the trick, but not when fighting these guys (or biker equivalents on crack).

 

So - since I'm experimenting with a drop pod / deep strike list - what do you think about me building and deploying a VANGUARD SQUAD as my safety net / Killer unit?

 

I'm thinking:

 

Sergeant, relic blade

2 marines with double claws

1 marine with power sword (just because i would need more claws)

1 marine with PF

 

5 total, all with jump packs, able to deep strike, and heroic intervention.

 

On landing, on the heroic intervention charge I'd have 3 I4/S6 attacks, 8 I4/S4 double PW claw attacks, 4 S4/I4 PW attacks,and 3 I1/S8 PF attacks. If I'm rescuing Kantor, I'd get another attack for each man...23 total PW attacks...

 

(In my tactica, in the best situation, I have pods with beacons nearby Kantor, so the Vanguard land spot on and then charge).

 

So...I'm wondering what you think about this. I need a killer unit desparately. One that matches the overall manner this army deploys. I think Vanguard would be good to great vs a normal terminator unit or I4 character...BUT...

 

Against these wolf riders, the Lord is a god of war and has 3+ invulnerable saves (IIRR). The entire unit at that size (5 models) has 12 wounds, all T5. With fleet...not much different fom the other new codex uber killer units...

 

I think if I went Vanguard vs this unit ALONE (assuming I charged) and near Kantor and a librarian with null -

 

At I6 - The lord swings at all 5 of the Vanguard, hits 3 of 4, wounds 3...I'm left with 2 guys....

 

At I 4 - assume best case I put all the attacks on the lord - from the two surviving lightning claw buddies - they put 10 attacks on him, 5 hit (need to roll 4s), 4 wound (I need 5s, rerolled), he takes his 3+ invulnerable save, and rerolls them, for say 3 wounds. He is still not dead! FRAK! Would have been better to wound his buddies...then, his other wolf buddies pile on 15 or so attacks and kill the last 2 vanguard. I accomplished pretty much nothing but lose a 6th of my army points, and I don't even delay the wolve's next charge. Some heroic intervention that turned out to be...expanding the unit to 8 vanguard might be the requirement, but WOW they are expensive.

 

Things would fare better if I'm countercharging a combat in progress. Maybe I lose more tac guys in the process rather than the expensive ones. Maybe I save the characters, but doubt it.

 

OK....so how do codex marines get out of this mess? Once engaged by the new UBER assault units in the three new Codexi, what do you plan to do? Run away from anying I5 or higher until somebody shoots it? You can't run from these wolves....you can try to hide...

[yodaid764]

Ok, so feed them a sacrificial unit, then use things like Librarian's Avenger (S 5, AP 3) for some damage. Or, if you catch them in the open....Vortex of Doom. S 10 AP 1. That is double their toughness so Instant Death. Or use the Vindicator. Ok so I dont have a great idea for taking them toe to toe. Dont fight on their terms is the way to go. You fell into his battle plan by attacking his strong assault type unit with everything you have. Just my opinion.

[DerekLee688]

I run very armored lists. I have a tac squad that walks but it's next to a dread, and everything else is either meched or bikes. Also nothing of mine is stubborn. I think we just got to shoot them. If it can't be beat to death by a unit of 5-8 hamminators then C:SM shouldn't swing at it, of course this is my less expeience talking.

 

My reply to Uber assult units will be vindicator+Typhoons(2-3)+TLAC Dread+10xSternguard double tapping hellfire rounds+combi-pred. The very likely senario is that I'll only assault what I can't out shoot.

[Arkios]

Meh, shoot them a bit and/or throw Lysander and some terminators at 'em. Lysander's str10 hammer and 2+/3++ will laugh at the thunderwolves. Add a Librarian with Null Zone up within 24" if they are all packing storm shields.

 

Another thing to consider, they can only get 3+/3++ save. That means that you can just saturate them with weight of fire from things like bolters, heavy bolters, assault cannons, autocannons, etc and just wait until they fail some saves. IIRC, they have 2 woulds each at T5 with a max of 5 models in the unit (10 T5 wounds total)... so they are just as difficult (or easy depending on how you view it) to kill as a full unit of vanilla bikers.

[Jackelope King]

Yes, you need to have shooting or assault-y goodness of your own to win games, but to actually be ready for an assault-based army?

 

Two words: mech up.

 

You can't assault a squad inside a Rhino without opening the Rhino first. And you can't lock a vehicle (other than walkers) in close combat.

 

Yeah, most of the really scary guys in assault (the Tyrants, the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount, Mephiston, TH/SS terminators) are going to rip the transport open like a wet paper, but that still gives you an extra turn you wouldn't otherwise have had, one where you can still shoot or assault or whatever you need to do.

 

So mech up :P

[Gen. Confusion]

I think what every one is trying to say is don't fight their fight, fight yours. If they want to bring a knife (in this case a really big knife) to a gun fight then let them. Don't fight fair, fight to win. Feed them a combat squad and then shoot them to ribbons. Send in an iron clad or two. The one powerfist/thunder hammer the thunderwolves get will be hard pressed to cause any damage. The DCCW will instant kill the t5 wolves.

[ShinyRhino]

Your experiment revealed exactly what the unit is built for...surviving close combats.

The one tried and true way to take out hard close combat units...shoot them to death. I know you love your Sternguard, so put them to good use! Land that pod near the TWC, and rapid fire with hellfire rounds. You're looking at 20 some-odd shots, 12ish hits, and 10ish wounds (wounding on 2+ is great, ask my Bike Captain). 10ish wounds is two saves each for every man in the unit. He'll roll two for the Lord, and if the grunt models aren't all armed differently, they roll the other eight in a block. Every two failed saves is a dead Cav Wolf. You should kill at least one a turn.

Or, if he's not all armed up with Stormshields, use the AP3 shots. Sure, you risk overheats, and will take forever to roll (you have to roll all those potential to-hits model-by-model because of the way Overheat wounds work), but they're taking ONLY invulnerables on them. Combine that with the Librarian's Null Zone for extra damage.

OR, start your Sternguard on the board, and aim them at the TWC from the get-go. You have Kraken Bolts that can fire at 36", whihc will give you one extra turn of shooting before they hit you.

 

Any shooting is good shooting at TWC, especially when it forces a ton of saves. You know that, from your armor saves on your Terminators! ;)

 

I know you love Kantor, but I'd avoid putting him anywhere near that fight. He's always going at I1, and is an IC. A single TWC model can chop him to bits before he ever swings. He's only 3+/4++. Once he's dead, you lose all those Inspiring Presence attacks. Park his butt behind the melee if you have to. Just don't go putting him into the fight against that TWC unit.

 

 

Unfortunately, you're just not going to be able to beat that I6 Lord. There's nothing in a pod list that can do it, beyond a Librarian with Quickening. You'd have to upgrade to an Epistolary, use Quickening, hit, wound, AND try to use the Force Weapon to instakill him if he doesn't make his 3++. It's a lot of "ifs."

 

With a pod list, try to go second. 50/50 chance, obviously. When you have that luxury, you can deploy in a refused flank away from that one unit, and deal with the squishier parts of his army.

Even if you go first, you have the luxury of seeing his deployment before half your pods show up on the table. There's no way he's keeping his whole army in reserve. IIRC, it's not mobile enough to do that and win. Find the weak spots, and apply pod pressure to them. His TWC are only one unit, and cannot score. They will not single-handedly win a game. Concentrate on the other conditions of the game, like killpoints and such.

 

Another great drop pod unit is a Dread. You know I love Ven Dreads. Drop one in a pod near that TWC unit, and force them to deal with him. Go for an Assault Cannon and DCCW with heavy flamer, venerable or not. The S10 hits at I4 can instakill models, will wound on a 2, and you get three swings on the charge, and 2 once stuck in. Every failed 3++ save is a dead model. They'll hit back against your WS, or on a 6 with grenades. A venerable can force a reroll of any wreck or explode result to keep them tarpitted even longer. You're essentially trading a 210 point unit (pod plus vendread with that loadout) to tie up his killiest unit for several turns.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, most of the really scary guys in assault (the Tyrants, the Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount, Mephiston, TH/SS terminators) are going to rip the transport open like a wet paper, but that still gives you an extra turn you wouldn't otherwise have had, one where you can still shoot or assault or whatever you need to do.

 

So mech up ;)

Its not really an "extra" turn though in most cases- usually youll get the same number of shooting turns off, because you wont be able to get a full turn of shooting inside the rhino.

 

C:SM has 3 good counter-assault units IMO: Biker Command Squads, Dreadnaughts with Extra Armor *any flavor* and Vangaurd.

 

Scouts are a decent assault unit with BP+CCW, as are Assault Marines, but likes been said- theyre decent, not excellant.

 

If you want to hit hard on the assault your going to have to pay for it... just like your opponent did. The fact that he invested alot of points into chopping things into bite sized peices and you did not would lead to the natural conclusion of: hes better at it than you.

 

@ General Confusion: I dunno, I think 4 attacks from a Str 10 weapon should be able to get through an ironclad fairly quickly... its the venerables that are hard to stop.

[Starblayde]

Chop the shooty bits. Shoot the choppy bits.

 

Plasma weapons and pieplates are your friend when the uber assault unit runs towards you.

[Captain Idaho]

Its not really an "extra" turn though in most cases- usually youll get the same number of shooting turns off, because you wont be able to get a full turn of shooting inside the rhino.

 

Granted but it does force them into a position where they are easily targetted. It forces them to commit before they strike a unit, for the sacrifice of just a Rhino.

 

C:SM has 3 good counter-assault units IMO: Biker Command Squads, Dreadnaughts with Extra Armor *any flavor* and Vangaurd.

 

I agree with your choices, but I would like to add that other units can become useful when opposed to the right opponent. As an example, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield Terminators are great against Hive Tyrants with Tyrant Guard and Greater Daemons, plus Blood Crushers etc, whilst Honour Guard are great at obliterating anything Orkish.

 

I favour a decent assault unit in my armies, and have used them to kill opposing super scary assault units, by doubling up their potential with a round of supporting fire from a bolter shocking Tactical squad. My best example I remember off the top of my head is my Landraider Honour Guard + Master charging Waaanial00 his Ork Nobz the same turn I had a Tactical squad fire at them, which helped them win the combat without serious loss.

[Gen. Confusion]

@ General Confusion: I dunno, I think 4 attacks from a Str 10 weapon should be able to get through an ironclad fairly quickly... its the venerables that are hard to stop.

 

Yeah your right. For some reason I was thinking about str.8. I know they are str. 10 but this str. 8 thing in my mind. :rolleyes:

[Ming]

I agree with everything being said above. Shoot the assaulty stuff.

 

But, nobody seems to have an answer on dealing with the threat via assault.

 

Having a major counter assault "rescue" unit is very important. Nearby and dealt with turn 3 was a Landraider crusader and 2 rhinos of spacewolves (30 assault troop equivalents) with melta and plasma spam and wolfen dudes that also had to be dealt with. (I immobilized the raider, shot up one wolf squad, blew up a rhino, and decimated the other two squads with my other units, but eventually the wounded raider and remnant gray hunters took their toll.

 

The entire battle management broke down into three sub-fights -

 

(1) as the above message thread started;

 

(2) a central battle of my librarian, 5 regular terminators and 20 marines, razorback and vindie vs his 30 hunters, 2 rhinos, mm speeder and raider (in turn 4, the libby and tac squad diesengaged from this to feed the wolves);

 

and (3) Njal and terminators vs my assault terminators.

 

In all areas I shot all weapons at the wolf army to bust them up, including vengeance fire from the sternguard, but was broken down by unstoppable assault.

 

Having a strong counterassault unit is very important, a devastating cleaner as it should be. It looks like it would have to come from either an HQ overhaul, vanguard, or venerables.

 

There are some things I'm changing up as I finess the list I'm experimenting with.

 

At the end of the evning, discussing adepticon results and what it will mean for May 15th, we all agreed (others at the FLGS, all serios 40K players) that if you want to make it far as a codex marine army, you have to have a list than can do three things in the game:

 

1. Kill 4 AV12 vehicles on turn 1. Period. With certainty. No guessing or relying on good dice rolls.

 

2. Kill a I5+, 5+ model uber assault unit in one turn, either HTH or by shooting them outside a 12-inch range - too far for rapid fire.

 

3. Kill the equivalent of 2 AV13 or better dreads within 12 inches of your line in one shooting phase. (we all agree they are nearly impossible to kill in assault).

 

The unfortunate thing is that you may have to do all three things in one full turn, or you must have the way to control the game to do it piecemeal.

[ShinyRhino]

There is no counter-assault unit that can reliably take on that 4-man TWC unit, with the attached Lord.

Hammernators won't do it, as they strike at I1, and will fall to massed attacks before they can swing.

A min-maxed Vanguard can't do it, as they're prohibitively expensive when carrying power weapons, and Heroic Intervention is not a reliable delivery method.

A large Honour Guard with a Chapter Champion and a Chapter Banner MIGHT help, but again, very expensive and with poor delivery options. I'd suggest adding aux launchers to these guys, but if you're counter-assaulting, you won't get to fire into that melee. The S6 shots in addition to other firing would have been nice, though.

[minigun762]

Having a strong counterassault unit is very important, a devastating cleaner as it should be. It looks like it would have to come from either an HQ overhaul, vanguard, or venerables.

 

Is there a reason not to go with the Codex standard TH/SS Terminators? They are one of the better assault/counter assault units in the game, especally against other small elite units.

 

To be honest, I think the worst thing you can do is feed a Tier 1 assault specialists a bunch of Tier 2 assaulters (like Assault Marines). The best thing that a super assault unit can do is go through a bunch of decent ones, thereby protecting their non assault elements from any kind of close combat threat.

 

If you can't meet it and beat it on its own terms (assault) I would instead try to tarpit it with disposable Rhinos and combat squads and take it down with shooting.

[Grey Mage]

There is no counter-assault unit that can reliably take on that 4-man TWC unit, with the attached Lord.

Hammernators won't do it, as they strike at I1, and will fall to massed attacks before they can swing.

A min-maxed Vanguard can't do it, as they're prohibitively expensive when carrying power weapons, and Heroic Intervention is not a reliable delivery method.

A large Honour Guard with a Chapter Champion and a Chapter Banner MIGHT help, but again, very expensive and with poor delivery options. I'd suggest adding aux launchers to these guys, but if you're counter-assaulting, you won't get to fire into that melee. The S6 shots in addition to other firing would have been nice, though.

Cost of 5 TWC with a PF, a single Stormshield, and attached Wolf Lord with TWM, FB, BoR, WTN and WTT: around 520pts.

 

Cost of Biker Command Squad with Lightning Claws and Storm Shields, and attached Captain with Bike, Relicblade, Storm Shield, and Digital Weapons: 480pts.

 

Note: Thunderwolf Cavalry are Rending, not Powerweapons. I should think that the command squad would be able to go toe to toe with the TWC on a reliable basis.

 

Though the TWC have two wounds, their invulnerable saves come at 30pts per model and their T5 is no worse than the bikers own. Lightning claws should make up for the Strenght difference, and ignoring armor saves is a signficant advantage that should counter-balance the greater base attacks that the TWC have. And while the TWC can assault at a longer distance, they have alot less ranged firepower and less overall maneuverability.

 

Once in combat the TWC + WL have an edge... but thats how it should be- outside of assault the advantage is all to the bikers... who it should be noted could take that last 40ish points and get themselves a few plasma rifles, wich changes the odds signficantly farther in their favor.

 

Having a strong counterassault unit is very important, a devastating cleaner as it should be. It looks like it would have to come from either an HQ overhaul, vanguard, or venerables.

 

Is there a reason not to go with the Codex standard TH/SS Terminators? They are one of the better assault/counter assault units in the game, especally against other small elite units.

Because theyre horribly slow and die easily to massed basic weaponry? Or require you to more than double their points for a landraider? IMO TH+SS TDA is an incredibly situational unit and rapidly becoming more so outside of shrike lists.

[Captain Idaho]

Because theyre horribly slow and die easily to massed basic weaponry? Or require you to more than double their points for a landraider? IMO TH+SS TDA is an incredibly situational unit and rapidly becoming more so outside of shrike lists.

 

Here here.

[DerekLee688]

I don't think I care for the idea of a "Rescue" unit. You either have a unit that can take the Uber or you don't. Sometimes you just got to cut that unit off. Tau don't have a rescue unit, they don't have dedicated assault units, but ours arn't good enough to go toe to toe with ubers either.

 

The key to beating the uber is controling contact. I won't preach the virtue of mech. armies, but you got to have some way to dodge those units, or place what you don't want hit out of reach. Speed or fodder units.

[rat of vengence]

I am not sure why you are determined to counter assault them. Gun them down, just as if they were terminators (fast moving ones at that...). Feed them that tac squad in a rhino, when they assault the rhino they have no consolidation move. Then open up with the nearby vindicator.

I had a guy drop pod Logan and 5 wolfguard in front of my army. No, not the best move, but it left me with an option; shoot them ignoring the rest of his army or spread my shooting and try to finish them in assault. Well, I shot them til they were down to 1 wolfguard and a 1 wound Logan, then disabled the transports the rest of the army was coming in on. A greatly depleted combat monster unit is no longer a combat monster unit. They fell to an a 6 man assault squad and 5 scouts.

 

RoV

[gettothegone]

Just here to dump this.

 

 

Captain, Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Bike

3x Veteran, Lightning Claws, Storm Shield, Bikes

1x Veteran, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Bike

1x Apothacary, Bike

 

520pts

 

I've had great success assaulting / counter assaulting with this unit. Its also fast enough to allow you to control where the engagements happen.

 

You COULD use Khan to make the group I5 and I6 for himself on a charge. Unsaved 6's are instant deaths for those 2 wound units.

 

FNP is a godsend. It'll keep you in a fight much longer then most people realize. The amount of power weapons will fist more face then a Hawaiian Punch commercial.

[Mithril hound]

i play wolves, so i know that i WANT you to counter assault me. So dont.

[chapter master 454]

i play wolves, so i know that i WANT you to counter assault me. So dont.

 

Hows about lysander counter charging with terminators? So far my 5 tactical terminators and Lysander are yet to fail at tehir mission of disabling assault units or just breaking your lines back so hard you get impaled on your own spine. I charge, I have minimised your attacks at lysander so you have to chew through my five other terminators while lysander begins the Instant death spree. If Lysander can take 150 daemonette attacks to kill, then your measily 25 odd attacks won't take him down. Oh and I wouldn't even pre-charge shoot you. You might have silly little puppy riders. Heck, my two dreadnoughts kayvaan and ventris would mangle it with combined range and combat destruction. You might be tough but lets face: I'm more concerned about you cheese priests than your TWC (screw you jaws of the world wolf. You shouldn't ignore eternal warrior)

[ShinyRhino]

The one thing to keep in mind here, all, is that Ming is looking for a unit that can solve this problem for a POD army. he doesn't currently own any bikes, and I'm not sure it fits his playstyle. He runs a Third Company Ultras list with Kantor, and wants to expand to pod tactics.

[Vedrial]

TH/SS Termies w/ Pedro in a LRC.

 

-or-

 

Lightning Claw Termines with Khan in a LRC.

 

4 S8, I1 attacks per model... or 4 S5, I5, reroll wounds attacks per model. Either way, whatever you hit more than likely isn't getting back up.

[Arkios]

Ok how's this for pod tactics... Might be a bit expensive... but hey, pimped out thunder wolves will cost about the same if not more!

 

-Load up all of your pods with locator beacons.

-Take a nice fat Vanguard unit (or 2 smaller 5 man units) with jump packs and pimp them out with a relic blade, and some twin lightning claws, maybe a couple hammers and/or shields.

-Make sure your own units hang out near their pods after they drop in, at least until the wolves charge one of them.

-Heroic Intervention the vanguard near a drop pod and charge into the wolves.

 

Meh, its a bit of a stretch/one-trick-pony and silly expensive but it can work with the pod list.

 

 

Another podding option to counter Thunder wolves would be lots of Ironclad dreads. Like 3-5 of them.

[Captain Idaho]

Calgar could be worth a try? He is a power house after all, able to chew through most things. He should be able to put at least 3 wounds a turn on those Thunderwolves.

 

It does depend on what you need your army to achieve over all as to whether you want to go to toe to toe and win the combat, or whether you just need to neutralise the threat that uber combat has to the rest of your army. rat of vengence makes a good point, you only have to reduce the threat to your game to have sucess, not win the combat neccessarily.

 

That is why I have "sacrificed" my Honour Guard against opponents in the past (hell they rarely survive a battle!) but they make a big enough hole the rest of my army either has more time thanks to the excessive resources put into killing them, or I have reduced enemy numbers substantially.

 

In my army, and I feel it is the same for you, a 170pts Master with Relic Blade and Storm Shield and 225pts Honour Guard (Idaho Pattern) would be a fair trade to make a dent or cripple such opposing forces, or just delay them. The Master is very survivable and packs a good punch with S6 and Initiative 5 (and the Chapter Banner of course!) whilst the Honour Guard number 5 models so even a big bad Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard won't be able to kill them easily in a single turn. All the while every wound they take off will help you, and every turn helps a little more.

 

Remember if you charge and the unit is alive to fight in the opponents following assault phase, you can either shoot the survivers or charge something else in (like a Dread) if you lost the combat (likely).

 

The only targets I wouldn't feel they can successfully be traded for in this manner is something particularly offensive in assault (i.e. able to wipe out the entire unit in a single turn) with a higher initiative. Harlequins and Genestealers spring to mind!

 

You can't always rely on the opponent not being able to assault you so need such a back up plan to plan A (shooting the hell out of them).