How will codex marines handle the new Uber assault units?

[rat of vengence]

Just another thought, but the 400+ points people spend on 5 or 6 models is something I like to see. On the table across from my army. Sure, they hit a squad, it is dead. But for that 400+ points I have two full tac squads with meltagun and powerfist, and if the points go a little more, a rhino to put each squad in. I have found success by having LOTS of cheaper options. There is nothing in my army that the loss of would cripple my plans (except maybe my Vindicator, I love that tank :huh:).

 

Tactical marines with special and heavy weapons, working together in overlapping fire, really put the hurt on and make it difficult for any CC unit to earn back their points (properly supported of course).

 

RoV

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed, there is a virtue to building a list with no single point of failure.

[hiveminion]

In my opinion there is only one reliable counter-assault unit in the Space Marine codex that can go toe-to-toe with other close combat specialists and that is the ubiquitous TH/SS Terminator squad in a Land Raider. It has speed, durability, hitting power, and can also engage opponents at range with the Raider. Vanguard/Honour Guard/Command Squads all suffer from high price tags, lower threat range and lower staying power. Now don't get me wrong, I am all for the concept that each unit has its strengths and can be used effectivily, but Vanguard/Honour Guard/Command Squads in my view are either not effective as counter to opposing close combat monsters, or do not offer enough versatility for the price tag to be useful against other opponents not fielding such units.

 

Of course, in C:SM, a Raider is not a deep striking unit so if you insist on that deployment choice I second the Ironclad. It won't win the combat by itself but will be able to instant-kill the regular Wolves and the Lord, and is effective against a wide range of other enemies as well. Reduce the unit to the Powerfist and the Lord with shooting, then charge with the Ironclad. Kill the Powerfist first and then you can safely handle the Lord. Difficult to achieve, but doable.

 

As an aside, regarding your requirements for a Space Marine list:

 

At the end of the evning, discussing adepticon results and what it will mean for May 15th, we all agreed (others at the FLGS, all serios 40K players) that if you want to make it far as a codex marine army, you have to have a list than can do three things in the game:

 

1. Kill 4 AV12 vehicles on turn 1. Period. With certainty. No guessing or relying on good dice rolls.

 

2. Kill a I5+, 5+ model uber assault unit in one turn, either HTH or by shooting them outside a 12-inch range - too far for rapid fire.

 

3. Kill the equivalent of 2 AV13 or better dreads within 12 inches of your line in one shooting phase. (we all agree they are nearly impossible to kill in assault).

 

The unfortunate thing is that you may have to do all three things in one full turn, or you must have the way to control the game to do it piecemeal.

 

I wouldn't adhere to these too strictly. First of all killing 4 AV12 vehicles on turn 1 with absolute certainty is, of course, impossible in a game that uses dice. Personally, I would keep these things in mind when building a well-balanced list:

 

1. You need long range anti-tank and anti-infantry fire.

2. You need mobility.

 

Of course, by going all-deep strike, you're already sacrificing on mobility. That doesn't mean your list is bad or whatever, just that it isn't very flexible.

[Captain Idaho]

Thunder Hammer Terminators are the ones that lack versatility against opponents that don't have the horrifying Uber Unit or MCs, as they are more at risk of taking casualities due to having I1. Against a unit of 5 Thunderwolves + Wolf Lord they will amount a serious amount of attacks that can be quite a problem before the unit strikes.

 

They also are fairly slow and require a Landraider (not such a problem if you like Landraiders though).

 

The units you mentioned can either be specialised to a certain role (Command and Vanguard squads) or be great at cutting down swathes of infantry (all 3 but Honour Guard specialise in this). I would not put TH/SS Terminators above them in anyway.

 

As the main advocate of Honour Guard in the universe ever, I would like to point out they are the same points for the Idaho pattern (i.e. my own favourite 5x models with Banner and Relic Blade on Champion) +25pts plus are masters of carving through infantry so have a use in most lists.

[hiveminion]

Honour Guard in my experience suffer from the lack of an Invulnerable Save. They are just as dependent on a Raider as the Terminators unless you run them in a Rhino or Razorback, which makes timing their assault more difficult, as well as being an easier target for your opponent to destroy. Against the TWC unit, striking simultaneously is redundant as the Lord still strikes first, probably killing over half of the squad by himself. I'll agree TH/SS Terminators will be having trouble with the unit as well, but at least they'll get the 3++, and the regular Thunderwolves can be thinned down with shooting.

 

Versus armies lacking uber-units themselves the Terminators can take on enemy squads and vehicles short of hordes without much trouble. Honour Guard can do this too but fall short against MCs and uber-assault units. That is why I find the Terminators more useful against a wide range of opponents.

 

As I said I consider each unit to have its unique strengths, and I'll agree Vanguard and Command squads will do quite well handling infantry, but we were discussing decisive counter-assault units to counter enemy close combat specialists. In that respect I consider Vanguard, Honour Guard and Command squads not as cost effective as either the Terminators or the Ironclad.

[Captain Idaho]

It's easy enough to nullify the Wolf Lords initiative advantage by simply putting the Master into base to base contact with him instead of a member of the Honour Guard. With a 3+ invulnerable save he has more than a fair chance of surviving combat. The rest of the unit strike at equal initiative to the Thunderwolves, which is more than the Thunder Hammer Terminators do.

 

Most infantry the Honour Guard struggle with the Terminators would likely struggle with. Genestealers, Harlequins, Howling Banshees, Ravenors and Fiends of Slaannesh all have too many attacks for either Honour Guard or Terminators to deal with, regardless of the 3+ save. The only creatures the Terminators are superior to Honour Guard at fighting is Hive Tyrants, Trygons, Daemon Princes, Keepers of Slaannesh, Bloodthristers and Wraithlords, and of course Dreadnoughts. Honour Guard can easily kill a Carnifex, Mawloc, Tervigon etc.

 

TH/SS Terminators excel at giving good performance against elite units and MCs of course, whilst all these assault specialities we mentioned here thrash the pants off basic infantry.

 

Re-reading my earlier posts I don't think I got the point I should have been making across. I was advocating Honour Guard in a list that can take all comers and the Honour Guard being a good all round unit. I think Terminators with TH/SS are probably the better choice against Thunderwolf calvary, but against the rest of 40K I don't think they are a great choice.

[Grey Mage]

i play wolves, so i know that i WANT you to counter assault me. So dont.

 

Hows about lysander counter charging with terminators? So far my 5 tactical terminators and Lysander are yet to fail at tehir mission of disabling assault units or just breaking your lines back so hard you get impaled on your own spine. I charge, I have minimised your attacks at lysander so you have to chew through my five other terminators while lysander begins the Instant death spree. If Lysander can take 150 daemonette attacks to kill, then your measily 25 odd attacks won't take him down. Oh and I wouldn't even pre-charge shoot you. You might have silly little puppy riders. Heck, my two dreadnoughts kayvaan and ventris would mangle it with combined range and combat destruction. You might be tough but lets face: I'm more concerned about you cheese priests than your TWC (screw you jaws of the world wolf. You shouldn't ignore eternal warrior)

I would chear- so many extra points for me to be doing things with elsewhere.... and youll likely lose as much as you gain with that assault all things considered.

 

Who cares about Daemonette attacks? Frankly he statistically needs 48 GH attacks, not including power weapons/fists or anything special like that. Thats less than a turn of a assault against bloodclaws.

 

Example: Last game of my tournament last saturday- marneus calgar+5 Tactical Termies downed on the charge by a unit of 15 Bloodclaws with a powerfist, took 4 casualties from calgars death-throws. *twirls fingers* C:SM special characters are push-overs in close combat compared to the simple numbers of assault troops that other forces and put down.

 

TDA's big advantage isnt in killing power, its in survivability. People take TH+SS Termies not because theyre Str 8 Killers, but because they have a 2+/3++. Frankly, thoughness just isnt enough some days you need raw killy and number of attacks- and Assault Termies that dont diversify are going to lose on those days.

 

3xLC/2xTH+SS squads do better in all rounder lists, but are still slow. Slow is very very bad for a counter-assault unit. Fleet helps them a bit, but doesnt do didly squad for the rest of the army.

 

But, absolute best unit to increase the assault abilities of a SM gunline army? Pedro Kantor- the man designed to give assault abilities to marine gunlines. Find a hill, set up camp, shoot'em tell they hit and then hit them as hard as they hit you.

 

Against the new blood angels? Take Telion too, with a missile launcher+sniper unit. Snipe theyre sanguinairy priests to drop the army back down to I 4 on the charge so you have a decent chance. When they charge theyll only have 50% more attacks than you do, at the same I and S/T... if youve properly wittled them down those numbers will be much more in your favor, and the day alot more likely to be yours.

[Ming]

I've been thinking more about Telion and his impact on the game. Problem is you still need to rely alot on luck to kill thee opponent's character even if you single him out. It is almost you need a tellion in multiple sniper scout squads...telion, smelion, onion, and a unch of thoer "counts as"....

 

And...before he became a scout trainer, he was in Ultras third co, so he fits my storyline IIRR...Hmmm.

[ShinyRhino]

I've been thinking more about Telion and his impact on the game. Problem is you still need to rely alot on luck to kill thee opponent's character even if you single him out. It is almost you need a tellion in multiple sniper scout squads...telion, smelion, onion, and a unch of thoer "counts as"....

 

And...before he became a scout trainer, he was in Ultras third co, so he fits my storyline IIRR...Hmmm.

 

He is a lot of fun to play with. He's unique, so the ne sniper squad you put him in is really going to attract a lot of fire. but, with camo cloaks and hunkered down in cover, you should be able to soak quite a bit of it. Just watch out for heavy flamers.

 

He won't do much to the Lord, but you can put his wounds on single models (be sure you abide by the wound allocation rules, no double-wounding) and force them to take the specific armor or invuln (from Rending wounds) saves. BUT, the caveat for Telion is that his Stalker Boltgun is NOT a Sniper weapon. It wounds those T5 TWC on a 5, NOT a 4.

[Warprat]

Seems to me, your Deep Strike list pretty much contains what it needs to kill these guys... with a couple changes.

 

 

 

 

Here's what I'm thinking:

 

 

Kantor's Orbital Bombardment- Aim for the Thunderwolves and pray to the Emperor. Kantor deploys with a podless Tactical squad.

 

Sternguard+ Nullzone Librarian- Rapid fire combi-plasma, 20 shots should kill most anything.

 

Librarian to then counter his Rune Priest.

 

Change your close combat terminators into 10 Tactical. The tacticals are better all rounders and can do something every turn, including arrival. 10 Tactical Teminators are still plenty tough, when you use them all in one squad. They can't take on a full squad of Thunderwolves well, but anything else is dog meat. Start your tac termies on the board, so he can't screw with them as easily, and you avoid arriving piecemeal. Take some cyclones to blow up his transports. You get the equivilent of a Devestator squad.

 

Your Tacticals + Assualt Squad + Kantor (+1 bubble) have enough close combat power to take on Grey Hunters in close combat if necessary. Aim for the transports first to slow them down and make them have to choose between arriving piecemeal (great for you in CC,) or as a group (great for you again, because you can shoot them with heavies.)

 

 

 

Best of luck!

 

Warprat ;)

[gettothegone]

Telion is awesome.

 

When firing on a squad, Telion doesn't necessarily need to rend to place rends on high priced units... if your ML and scouts manage to score hits, you can assign Telions wounds to OTHER models, making your opponents assign instant deaths to the models you want.

 

2 Telion Wounds, a 2 Rends, and a Missile Launcher wound?

 

2 on some no name blokes from Telion, forcing the rends and missile launcher to get assigned to say... a SGT with a pfist, and both melta guns.

[Grey Mage]

I've been thinking more about Telion and his impact on the game. Problem is you still need to rely alot on luck to kill thee opponent's character even if you single him out. It is almost you need a tellion in multiple sniper scout squads...telion, smelion, onion, and a unch of thoer "counts as"....

 

And...before he became a scout trainer, he was in Ultras third co, so he fits my storyline IIRR...Hmmm.

 

He is a lot of fun to play with. He's unique, so the ne sniper squad you put him in is really going to attract a lot of fire. but, with camo cloaks and hunkered down in cover, you should be able to soak quite a bit of it. Just watch out for heavy flamers.

 

He won't do much to the Lord, but you can put his wounds on single models (be sure you abide by the wound allocation rules, no double-wounding) and force them to take the specific armor or invuln (from Rending wounds) saves. BUT, the caveat for Telion is that his Stalker Boltgun is NOT a Sniper weapon. It wounds those T5 TWC on a 5, NOT a 4.

Dont use him to kill HQs, use him to kill "support characters". Like the BA's new Sanguinairy Priests, who are only 1 wound at T4 and FNP. Hit them with the squads ML and allocate to him, buh-bye. Do the same things with peoples powerfist seargents, heavy weapon troopers, etc... whatever is likely to hurt you the most.

[Koremu]

Telion's ability to assign wounds doesn't apply to shots from a missile launcher he guides. So you have to rely on a Rend from his own gun.

[tahrikmili]

The answer, my friend, is PLASMA.

 

Sternguard with loads of plasmaguns and combiplasmas is my answer to killing every tough melee unit.

 

And Vindicators of course.

[Giga]

Been playing a lot against khorne CSM and space wolves, and I imagine soon enough I'll be playing about blood angels, too.

 

With space wolves and khornates it can be a little tricky. Basically, you have to get them out of their transports and then shoot the crap out of them before they can get to shoot/assault you. Vanilla has lots of long and short-range anti-tank for the transport-busting purpose, + access to great anti-infantry (especially if you take Vulkan).

 

With blood angels I imagine it's gonna be easier, simply because for the most part they're jumppackers, hence there's no need to kill transports, and you can simply focus your entire shooting (including your multimeltas, missile launchers, lascannons etc.) at their incoming units. Just make sure you shoot the bejesus out of them, and their oh-so-scary furious charge and the like won't matter much when their units are down to 2-3 models.

 

Basically, you need to control the field, and to have at least one strong unit that can hold its own in assault so that eventually you can take them at their own game. Our nice and cheap th/ss terminators are great at this. Sternguard are also great, especially if you got pedro cantor nearby to give them an additional attack.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

throw some las/plas in your tac squads, shoot a few of them at it and they'll end up dead. also back them up with sternguard you should't be losing

 

and yes mech up!

[Resv]

This may seem like a silly statement but I have one sure fire way to deal with TWC. In pretty much every game I have played at my FLGS there has been a ruin or building on the table with a second floor. It has become a common tactic of mine to always place either an Objective or a powerful unit on this units second floor and let my opponent run around attempting to get at me. My favorite thing lately is Plasma Cannons somewhere just out of reach so they can rain down on my opponents TWC.

 

Yes this isn't the best answer but it does sort of have a point, terrain exists in the game for a reason. If you normally play in a big open desert then chances are a unit like Thunder Wolves is going to take very little time to get to you. Very simple tactics like crowding a second floor become truly frustrating and can sometimes shutdown "uber units."

[Voltaire]

Fight on your terms. Not the enemies.

 

If they are masters of assault, shoot them.

and vice-versa.

 

 

A squad of sternguard alongside several tacticals shooting into that unit or any like will kill it. Not a maybe or probably could if... It will kill them. Then bring in an assault squad to mop them up so that the rest of your army can focus on more important things.

 

 

Do not engage them in closequarters when they are at full strength.

[Meatman]

Page 41 of the BRB under Attacking:

 

Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit

 

 

In that regard you don't have to worry about if your counter assault unit strikes at Initiative 1, the unit you charged CANNOT strike them. I think this may be the most overlooked rule in the book.

 

In this regard, Thunder-hammers may be the best bet. Any unit that suffers an unsaved wound is put down to initiative 1 as well. Meaning that in the next round, you both strike at the same time, helping you deal with them easier and suffer less losses.

[Grey Mage]

Page 41 of the BRB under Attacking:

 

Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit

 

 

In that regard you don't have to worry about if your counter assault unit strikes at Initiative 1, the unit you charged CANNOT strike them. I think this may be the most overlooked rule in the book.

 

In this regard, Thunder-hammers may be the best bet. Any unit that suffers an unsaved wound is put down to initiative 1 as well. Meaning that in the next round, you both strike at the same time, helping you deal with them easier and suffer less losses.

Thats because your wrong.

 

The begining of combat is distinct from the begining of the assault phase. If your not in base to base with an enemy unit at the begining of combat then you are not capable of attack them- so your own unit could not have assaulted them that turn.

 

The begining of combat is when you and your opponent say "ok, were doing this combat now, whats your highest iniative?" And begin allocating attacks. The inability of a unit to attack another unit it was not in BTB with is because of large, multi-unit combats wherein 4, 5, 6, or more units may all be in a giant swirling melee- including characters, who cannot attack any unit they are not in BtB with.

 

And Thunder-hammers do not effect units, they effect models. Unless the model you hit is T5 or has eternal warrior AND has more than 1 wound *a rare occurence* then they simply kill the enemy model outright... with no future effect on the unit in question, besides possibly losing them combat.

[Meatman]

Ah righto, my mistake. Our club has been playing those rules so I have to correct them :S

 

Thanks for setting me straight ^_^

[Grey Mage]

No big, but thatll seriously mess up gunline armies, among others... and would imply that a unit that was assaulted would not get to attack at all.... definitely not how the game operates eh?

 

Hope your talk goes well.

[Brother-Captain Isaac]

So, would Dreads be of any use? 3 Str10 I4 power attacks on the charge... And it's only 115 points, way less than the 520 point Thunderwolf Calvary :huh:

[Grey Mage]

A dreads cool... until you realise they have, most likely, a str 10 powerfist/thunderhammer in the unit, and that they all have rending.

[Brother Captain Josef]

The amount of power weapons will fist more face then a Hawaiian Punch commercial.

 

I have no clue what this means but it sounds very positive (and funny) to me!!