Assassins

[Brother Perun]

hello!!! I´m new in WH army and have some doubts about using assassins... I´m deciding between Callidus and Eversor assassin and wanna know your experience with both of them.

from my point of view Eversor is great:

3+D6 attacks, everything over 4+ to hit is like PW hit, no saves, combat drugs 12" charge!! FTW! and bio-meltdown which is nice as i see it. glancing vehicles on D6 roll of 6. I have feeling he´s monstrous creature killer.

 

on the other hand...

 

Callidus have C`tan sword which is PW, neural shredder with AP1 which is nice (units with low Ld are desirable targets), also act like Sly Marbo and can charge in turn it deep strike, have extra attack.

 

but...can´t loose feeling that Eversor is better...

your opinion?

thank you and cheers!

[calypso2ts]

You missed the most important ability the Callidus has, "A Word in Your Ear." Using this you can reposition heavy weapons, throw transports into difficult terrain (it is amazing how often a Land Raider will immobilize itself) and coming in like johnny on the spot means you can very often smash apart small sniper squads and free up objectives.

 

Example: In a tournament I immobilized an Ork Trukk, the Big Mech got out to repair it (failed) and the assassin came in, flamered several trukks and the Big Mek and killed him. The same tournament I immobilized a Land Raider turn 1, then used her to take down a combat squad camping an objective to get me the 1-0 capture and control win.

 

Even against Terminators, she has 5 attacks, 3 will hit and you generate 1.5 wounds which is 75 points of wounds before they even get to strike! (she is likely dead afterward but who cares!).

 

In short, the Eversor used to be the king of assassins before the new pile in rules but his inability to clear the combat zone means he needs more utility than he has to be really effective. The Callidus suffers from a similar problem, but her targets were always softer anyways.

 

Edit: Reread the C'tan Phase Sword, it is much more than a power weapon, no saves of any type can be taken against it!

[MayorDaley]

The most irritating thing about the Eversor is the lack of frag's. This thing has a 12 inch charge, but make sure your target isn't in cover or your going last. Just something to be aware of.

[Justicar Valius]

A good list won't use one but if you use one use a Callidus. They are imense in apocalypse using the data sheet though... *thinks about the time he exposed the rear armour of a stompa and chaos baneblade to 3 vindicators and a bunch of landraiders respectively*

[Gentlemanloser]

/seconded.

 

As above, niether.

 

Unless you have a really specific goal in mind.

 

If you do, only the Callidus is worth using. Reason;s why the Eversor isn't worth his points any more;

 

Is an IC, and unable to ride in any transport. Even starting from infiltrate with the new LoS rules you'll be *very* hard pressed to find a spot 12" away from your enemy where he'll be out of LoS to everyone. Very hard pressed. As such, he won't get a first turn charge, and being an IC, while be Rapid fired to death.

 

If he isn't, rejoice, you're playing someone you could steamroll, no matter what list you used.

 

In a few past threads, i've listed why the Assassins aren't worth using, but to reiterate their main failings;

 

Can't contest objectives.

Can't ride in Trasports.

Very Expensive, and quite fragile to boot.

Need an Inq to unlock them.

No Frags.

CC changes will see them unlikely to survive a round of combat (You can no longer clear kill zones).

 

Out of all fo this, the Callidus is the only reasonable choice, for these reasons;

 

AWIYE.

Her deployment.

The bane of TH/SS temries, especially Lysander/or his Thor clone Arjac.

And in some cases, her ability to auto glance a vehicle.

 

I hope this helps! :(

 

Edit: As for the Apoc datasheet, you can only do that to a single model in a game.

 

Edit2: Be careful about claiming the extra attack for a Cally. The eversor has a Pistol and a Power Wepaon, no questions there. And while the NS has been faqed into being a 1 handed weapon, it's still and assault wepaon and *not* a pistol, so by RAW (which I support here) doesn't give the +1A.

[Chengar Qordath]

Edit2: Be careful about claiming the extra attack for a Cally. The eversor has a Pistol and a Power Wepaon, no questions there. And while the NS has been faqed into being a 1 handed weapon, it's still and assault wepaon and *not* a pistol, so by RAW (which I support here) doesn't give the +1A.

That's been argued back and forth ever since the FAQ came out; there's no real consensus on the matter. However, let's not derail this thread into yet another argument over the matter; suffice it to say that, like with several other old codex issues, the rules aren't 100% clear.

 

That said, I'll agree with everyone else that the Callidus is generally your best choice. IMO, the Eversor is overlooked as a useful counter-assault character though; sending him in by himself is generally a bad idea, but he can do a good job of mopping up existing close combats (very useful in an army like Witch Hunters that tends to be weak in assault.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I'm a big fan of Death Cult Assassins as counter-charge troops.. 3 models per choice, 12 power weapon attacks on the charge if they work together at S4 I5... much to like about that :)

[Judanas]

Callidus is one of the best options, assasin-wise.

 

Her abilities are powerful, but most of all, she is multi-purpose. There is not an army she can't help you with.

 

Guard: When she turns up she can cause many a glancing hit on a tank and then charge it. Everything in the guard codex has back armour 10 so she can glance it. That can be one leman locked down until they send something to pick her off, which obviously can't be anything that uses a template. If they have thier command squads not in tanks, then you can charage that too. A command squad of any sort falls down very fast to a Callidus Assassin and then no more orders. Straken is about the only commander who has a good chance of living through her assault. Yank groups out of tanks, meltaspam is less impresive if they are standing in the middle of the field, wondering why they are not in the tank. And failing all else, a guard squad falls down to her assault pretty well, what with such low average leadership, and such pathetic melee skills.

 

Marines: Terminators become as tough as regular marines against her assault. You only wound with the flamer template on 5's but that is still AP1, so even one dead terminator from that is great. With terminators, you can also put them out of thier transport, making them march back in, wasting time for them. A land raider, although nasty, is a bit less scary if you have exorcist'd the occupants already. Basic marines and devestator squads are also very tasty for a Callidus assassin.

 

Grey Knights: Like Marines but you get even more bang for your buck.

 

Tau: Hi Broadsides and Crisis suits, what poor melee skills you have. In addition the basic firewarrior squad has rather low leadership, making them prime fodder for your Neural Shredder. Markerlights are key to a tau force hitting often enough to win. Om nom nom... If they were silly enough to bring an ethereal, well...live up to the fact that it is an Assassin and kill the bugger, it's not like he can stop you.

 

Orks: Less overall use here. They have a good leadership in mobs and they can take an assault from her quite well. Still, looters are pretty expensive and fragile if assaulted, and dragging the big mek out of his trukk means an exorcist or two can vasty reduce the survivability of the rest of the trukks. I can't think of much else with orks, it's one of the less useful forces for her...

 

Necrons: Rez orbs have limited range pair AWIYE with that and have the necron lord not be quite close enough to save his mates first turn, meaning a MUCH faster phase out. In addition, We'll be back does not activate on a C'tan phase sword unless there is a nearby rez orb, go munch up a warrior squad.

 

Chaos: Feel no pain does not activate if they are hit by an AP1 weapon or the enemy is packing power weapons in assualt. You can do both, making plague marines that much more fragile against you. The problem is you wound on a 5+ but your sisters would be doing the same, sans AP1. Thousand Sons fall apart like the empty armour they are without an inv save. Other than that, play it like a marine force, that's what it is.

 

Eldar: Farseers are very fragile without saves, they are toughness 3, and eldar love to have guide. Pull things out of falcon, beat of things that are not good at assault, the usual. Jet bikes are vulnerable to being dumped in difficult terrain to kill them off before the game starts. Special not goes to dark reapers. Those buggers will rip witch hunters a new one without trying, but they are eldar without a save against a Callidus Assasin, they should be a pretty big target if they are on the board.

 

Tyranids: Tyranids lack the transports of other armies, so one of the major uses of the Callidus. However there are many other things than are worth having stumble around. Monsterous creatures are easily taken down by Exorcists but pulling one out of area terrain where he is crouching with a Rupture Cannon or heavy Venom cannon makes it much easier. A huge squad of genestealers is less of a problem if you can guarantee they will not have first turn assault. If he has Synapse streached too thin, pull it away, make the stuff he has not do want he want first turn, especially thing with ranged weapons and instinctive behavior: feed or stuff he wants running at you with instinctive behavior: lurk. When the Callidus arrives you have a buffet spread before you, nid creatures come in two major sorts very low leadership, and very high. Very low leadership stuff tends to also come in rather fun sized mobs. Stand behind them, Neural Shreader away and then, assault if you think they won't finish you off or don't and be too big a threat to ignore next turn. Special mention goes to zoanthropes if they are on the board, they are fragile without thier warp field and are devestating to the exorcists or land raiders on your side.

 

I'm too tired to keep yapping but I hope I've been helpful.

[Spartans]

I have tried using the Vindi and well they just not worth it, has never done enough damage to justify points

 

From the others i would prob take Callidus with Eversor being second choice

[KingDeath]

Against Blood Angels one might want to consider a Vindicare to deal with their priests which are afaik quite expensive and only have a single wound ( if my infos are right ) but provide the BA player with a fnp bubble which could realy ruin your day.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm a big fan of Death Cult Assassins as counter-charge troops.. 3 models per choice, 12 power weapon attacks on the charge if they work together at S4 I5... much to like about that

 

While conversley I'm not a fan of a Terminator with T3, no shooting attack and a 5+ Save. :P

 

Against Blood Angels one might want to consider a Vindicare to deal with their priests which are afaik quite expensive and only have a single wound ( if my infos are right ) but provide the BA player with a fnp bubble which could realy ruin your day.

 

Stear clear of the Vindicare.

 

You might, once, get a ruselt with him and feel it's a good choice. But he's not. His only use is the one game he turbo penetrates a Monolith. Just for the lulz.

 

If only it wasn't faqed we couldn't 'ally' squad upgrades. Then you could have used Telion instead.

 

Necrons: Rez orbs have limited range pair AWIYE with that and have the necron lord not be quite close enough to save his mates first turn, meaning a MUCH faster phase out. In addition, We'll be back does not activate on a C'tan phase sword unless there is a nearby rez orb, go munch up a warrior squad.

 

You'll be lucky to have the Cally survive that first round with a large Warrior squad. And it's the phase out you're after. Losing the CC becuase you took 2 unsaved wounds is :P

 

And AWIYE can't pull units out of Transports.

[Judanas]

You'll be lucky to have the Cally survive that first round with a large Warrior squad. And it's the phase out you're after. Losing the CC becuase you took 2 unsaved wounds is :rolleyes:

 

And AWIYE can't pull units out of Transports.

 

I was under the impression that you could pull things out of transports. It's a move, and it's a legal place for them to start the game. I may be wrong however, has this been conclusively stated anywhere?

 

I know she can't win against a large warrior squad. But with a large necron force there is not much besides necron warriors most of the time, and she wounds them on a 6+ with the Neural Shredder. Once she turns up all you can really do is hurl her at a squad that is out of the rez orbs distance and get her to permakill some of them. The other options are hurl her at the lord, who is toughness 5 and might ignore all saves, or the monolith, who won't care what she does to it. She will on average kill 1.65 Necron warriors, I know but there are few better options. As she comes in from reserves there should be a squad or two that have been knocked down to single digits.

[Chengar Qordath]

the monolith, who won't care what she does to it.

Having your Callidus keep the Monolith continually shaken/stunned with her neural shredder can actually be pretty useful at times. That said, the Callidus generally suffers against Necrons; Ld 10 across the board hurts the Neural Shredder, and the lack of Invulnerable saves makes a C'tan weapon much less attractive. It doesn't help that of the enemies with Invulnerable saves Wraiths beat you at Initiative, C'tan eat the Callidus's sword, and Lords (if they get the Invulnerable wargear) are hard to even injure at T 5 (6 if it is a Destroyer Lord).

[Judanas]

I suppose you could zap the monolith, but the monolith can still portal necron around if it's stunned, it only stops the guass flux arc (Which I suppose is worth stopping) and moving.

[Chengar Qordath]

I suppose you could zap the monolith, but the monolith can still portal necron around if it's stunned, it only stops the guass flux arc (Which I suppose is worth stopping) and moving.

It's not a great option by any means, but it is arguably better than shooting the shredder at things that it can only wound on 6, or at least good enough to consider as another option.

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

And being unable to move means its alot easier to park a vehicle right in front of its door and trap the warriors inside :lol:

[Brother Perun]

thank you mates!! lot of answers, lot of options :devil:

wanna use chance to ask new question (to avoid opening new topic): Eviscerators are treated like PF? correct??? I mean, it´s FTW! :teehee:

[Hellios]

thank you mates!! lot of answers, lot of options :P

wanna use chance to ask new question (to avoid opening new topic): Eviscerators are treated like PF? correct??? I mean, it´s FTW! :)

 

but get 2d6 armour penatration.

[Brother Perun]

so, you have 10 woman strong repentia squad, 10 PF Str 6 hits...nice. thank you sir! :)

[Judanas]

so, you have 10 woman strong repentia squad, 10 PF Str 6 hits...nice. thank you sir! :)

 

Correction, you have 10 Chainfist Str 6 hits. But more or less right.

[calypso2ts]

With regards to moving units out of transports - To disembark you need to start the movement phase embarked. Since there is no movement phase during her 'Redeployment Move' you cannot disembark units.

 

That said you can force terrain tests.

 

I always play the Callidus with 2 CCW and have done so in several tournaments. No one I have talked to has an issue with it, also a weapon does not need to be a pistol to add +1 attack, it just needs to be a single handed weapon. The real debate is whether the Phase Sword is single handed.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not true. The FAQ makes it a single handed weapon, but it needs to be a *Close Combat Weapon* which by default Pistols are, and Assault Weapons are not.

 

There is a least one other 1 handed Assault gun in the game (A Dark Eldar weapon).

 

But again, this is rehashing an old topic that should probably be left for dead. :tu:

[calypso2ts]

Not true. The FAQ makes it a single handed weapon, but it needs to be a *Close Combat Weapon* which by default Pistols are, and Assault Weapons are not.

 

Oops I mistyped that, you are correct. I just wanted to point out that pistols are not the only weapon that counts as an additional CCW.

[Gentlemanloser]

Unless mentioned in the weapons individual description that it can be used as a CCW (like the Brazier IIRC), they are. By default, only Pistol class Ranged weapons count as a Close Combat Weapon.

 

No other types do.

[Chengar Qordath]

Unless mentioned in the weapons individual description that it can be used as a CCW (like the Brazier IIRC), they are. By default, only Pistol class Ranged weapons count as a Close Combat Weapon.

Nice reasoning, except for the fact that the actual rulebook never says that. On page 37 it just specifies "two single-handed weapons."